Regeneration

[Dave G]

so in context, the preceding and following verses, who is this talking about?

The same thing Romans 9:22-24 and all other passages having to do with believers...both Jews and Gentiles in Christ.

Do you mean the Israel spoken of in Romans
11:11-12, and verses 15, 23, and verses 27-30?

Yes and no.
See Kentucky's post above.

Israel, as a nation has been blinded.
But there is a remnant according to the election of grace ( Romans 11:6, Romans 11:7-8 ).
Most of them, right now, are blinded to the truth, judiciously.
But someday their blindness will be lifted, and those that remain until the coming of the Lord will see Him as He is, and mourn because of what they, as a nation have done to their God.

So, right now there are elect Gentiles and elect Jews...later on, there will be many more Jews that believe on Christ at His coming...
All "Israel" ( spiritual ) shall be saved, but not all Israel ( the physical nation ) shall be saved.

God's people are a "nation" within a nation as pertaining to physical Israel, and "nations" within nations as pertaining to physical Gentiles.
The spiritual are combined to make one "nation", or people, composed of remnants out of every tongue, tribe and nation ( Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9 ).

Keep reading...His word really is very detailed and quite amazing!

 

[glad4mercy]

spiritual Israel is all believers, whether Jew or Gentile. But the Israel that is blinded, will one day see.

You've got it reversed with "some, not all". 'Some', a remnant according to the election of grace, remained. The rest were hardened, cast out, and the kingdom given to others as prophesied:

11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner; This was from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mt 21

28 There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without.
29 And they shall come from the east and west, and from the north and south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. Lu 13



Dispies have built quite the narrative surrounding the 'grafting back in' of Ro 11. But I remind you, we're one now, not two:
​

14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace;
16 and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: Eph 2

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10

You Dispies make a distinction where God no longer does and foresee 'two flocks' again in the future. God's not going undo and 'make of the one, two. This kingdom is an everlasting kingdom of which there will be no end.

a careful exegesis of Romans 11 and the whole Bible reveals a future restoration of Israel, though it will happen through a time of great trouble, pruning, and Divine intervention.

 

[glad4mercy]

The same thing Romans 9:22-24 and all other passages having to do with believers...both Jews and Gentiles in Christ.

Yes and no.
See Kentucky's post above.

Israel, as a nation has been blinded.
But there is a remnant according to the election of grace ( Romans 11:6, Romans 11:7-8 ).
Most of them, right now, are blinded to the truth, judiciously.
But someday their blindness will be lifted, and those that remain until the coming of the Lord will see Him as He is, and mourn because of what they, as a nation have done to their God.

So, right now there are elect Gentiles and elect Jews...later on, there will be many more Jews that believe on Christ at His coming...
All "Israel" ( spiritual ) shall be saved, but not all Israel ( the physical nation ) shall be saved.

God's people are a "nation" within a nation as pertaining to physical Israel, and "nations" within nations as pertaining to physical Gentiles.
The spiritual are combined to make one "nation", or people, composed of remnants out of every tongue, tribe and nation ( Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9 ).

Keep reading...His word really is very detailed and quite amazing!

I agree with the post above. All Israel will be saved means the whole olive tree of Elect branches, but also there will be an awakening of national Israel, where they come to know Messiah

all who reject Messiah will be cut off, and those remaining will be saved.

 

[Alan Gross]

What is your view on regeneration? How we understand regeneration is a hinge as to how we understand the other aspects of salvation

I would like to take this opportunity to state my view on Regeneration as a Spiritual Event that Takes Place on..... (?)...

..... an Unregenrate soul.

Of the discussions on the Board, I do not see the word, 'sin', or 'lost', or 'unregenerated', on the Topic of Salvation, ever mentioned.

You can look.

So, the views of most others differ from what I understand.

I see Jesus as having Died, because my sin was Placed on Him, and Jesus Made the Payment of His Perfect Righteousness to God, in my place.

If God Hadn't Planned Salvation for my sin, and Jesus Hadn't Accomplished Salvation for me, and The Holy Spirit Hadn't Come inside me, to Give me a Spiritual Birth from Above, my Unregenrate soul would had never been Regenerated.

I would have Gone to Hell and suffered, Forever.

So, I believe Jesus Died, The Just for the unjust and that Jesus is The Savior of lost souls, from The Wrath of God.

 

[Alan Gross]

I agree with the post above. All Israel will be saved means the whole olive tree of Elect branches, but also there will be an awakening of national Israel, where they come to know Messiah

all who reject Messiah will be cut off, and those remaining will be saved.

Nah. That's not the Teaching of Scripture.

Go Preach the Gospel to Jews, if you give one dang darn about them, in the least.

When Jesus Returns, all oppurtunity to Repent and Believe, for all Human Beings, is gone.

All Israel is not Israel and never will be.

 

[glad4mercy]

Nah. That's not the Teaching of Scripture.

Go Preach the Gospel to Jews, if you give one dang darn about them, in the least.

When Jesus Returns, all oppurtunity to Repent and Believe, for all Human Beings, is gone.

All Israel is not Israel and never will be.

What does Romans 11:11-12 say?

What does Romans 11:25-32 say?

 

[glad4mercy]

a careful exegesis of Romans 11 and the whole Bible reveals a future restoration of Israel, though it will happen through a time of great trouble, pruning, and Divine intervention.

You've got it reversed with "some, not all". 'Some', a remnant according to the election of grace, remained. The rest were hardened, cast out, and the kingdom given to others as prophesied:

11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner; This was from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mt 21

28 There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without.
29 And they shall come from the east and west, and from the north and south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. Lu 13



Dispies have built quite the narrative surrounding the 'grafting back in' of Ro 11. But I remind you, we're one now, not two:
​

14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace;
16 and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: Eph 2

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10

You Dispies make a distinction where God no longer does and foresee 'two flocks' again in the future. God's not going undo and 'make of the one, two. This kingdom is an everlasting kingdom of which there will be no end.

what does Romans 11:11-12 say?

how about Romans 11:25-32?

 

[glad4mercy]

Nah. That's not the Teaching of Scripture.

Go Preach the Gospel to Jews, if you give one dang darn about them, in the least.

When Jesus Returns, all oppurtunity to Repent and Believe, for all Human Beings, is gone.

All Israel is not Israel and never will be.

Preach the Gospel to everyone

 

[Alan Gross]

what does Romans 11:11-12 say?

how about Romans 11:25-32?

This what Romans 11:11 & 12 says:

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall?

since they have stumbled, and have thereby fallen into a forlorn and miserable condition, are they always to continue in it?

God forbid:

The end which God had in view, in suffering the Jews to stumble and fall, was not their destruction, but rather the salvation of the Gentiles;

and especially not the destruction of "all" of them,

blindness had only happened "in part" to them;

for there was a remnant among them according to the election of grace, which should be saved;

a chosen number, which obtained life and righteousness by Christ;

but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles,

That is, the Gospel; which is sometimes called salvation, the Gospel of our salvation, the word of "salvation";

because it is a declaration of salvation by Christ, and is the power of God unto it;

or a means made effectual by the power of God to convince persons, both of their need, and of the worth of it, and also a means of the application of it to them, by the Spirit of God:

now this came to the Gentiles by the ministry of the apostles, according to the orders and command of Christ; and that through the fall of the Jews, their unbelief and rejection of the Messiah;

for the Gospel was first preached to them, but they contradicting and blaspheming it, the apostles turned to the Gentiles, and preached it to them, as the Lord had commanded them:

and thus they came to be acquainted with the doctrine of salvation by a crucified Christ, and to have it powerfully applied to their souls by the Spirit of God;

when salvation might be said to "come" to them, in such sense as our Lord says it did to Zacchaeus and his house, ( Luke 19:9 )

for to provoke them to jealousy.

The fall of the Jews makes way for the Gospel among the Gentiles, and this having had its effects with them, will be a means of putting the Jews upon serious thoughts about, and a studious inquiry after, the true Messiah, and salvation by him;

... to provoke them to jealousy in a good sense, as will appear ... when being convinced of their sin in rejecting the Messiah, and observing the many advantages the Gentiles have received by embracing him, and they have lost by their contempt of him, will be provoked to an holy emulation of them, and be stirred up through their means to seek the Lord their God, and David their King; and thus things will wind about in Providence.

Note: during the Inter-Mediatorial Age, between the First and Second Coming of Christ, or it will never happen, for the Jews, or anyone else.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world,

the fall of the Jews made less of them
By "the world", from the next clause, is meant the Gentiles

and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles;

the few that did believe were the means of carrying and spreading the Gospel

afterward the Jews behaving in a very indecent manner towards the apostles of Christ, they turned in a manner wholly to the Gentiles;

and thus by the means of a few, a diminutive company, of which the Apostle Paul was one, the Gospel, the pearl of great price, treasure hid in a field, and put into earthen vessels, was carried into the Heathen world, and by it they were enriched.

"how much more their fulness?"

all Israel Will be Saved. (Gill)

 

[Alan Gross]

Preach the Gospel to everyone

Does this mean that anyone on Earth is ever going to tell The Nation of Israel to Repent and Believe The Gospel?

 

[glad4mercy]

This what Romans 11:11 & 12 says:

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall?

since they have stumbled, and have thereby fallen into a forlorn and miserable condition, are they always to continue in it?

God forbid:

The end which God had in view, in suffering the Jews to stumble and fall, was not their destruction, but rather the salvation of the Gentiles;

and especially not the destruction of "all" of them,

blindness had only happened "in part" to them;

for there was a remnant among them according to the election of grace, which should be saved;

a chosen number, which obtained life and righteousness by Christ;

but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles,

That is, the Gospel; which is sometimes called salvation, the Gospel of our salvation, the word of "salvation";

because it is a declaration of salvation by Christ, and is the power of God unto it;

or a means made effectual by the power of God to convince persons, both of their need, and of the worth of it, and also a means of the application of it to them, by the Spirit of God:

now this came to the Gentiles by the ministry of the apostles, according to the orders and command of Christ; and that through the fall of the Jews, their unbelief and rejection of the Messiah;

for the Gospel was first preached to them, but they contradicting and blaspheming it, the apostles turned to the Gentiles, and preached it to them, as the Lord had commanded them:

and thus they came to be acquainted with the doctrine of salvation by a crucified Christ, and to have it powerfully applied to their souls by the Spirit of God;

when salvation might be said to "come" to them, in such sense as our Lord says it did to Zacchaeus and his house, ( Luke 19:9 )

for to provoke them to jealousy.

The fall of the Jews makes way for the Gospel among the Gentiles, and this having had its effects with them, will be a means of putting the Jews upon serious thoughts about, and a studious inquiry after, the true Messiah, and salvation by him;

... to provoke them to jealousy in a good sense, as will appear ... when being convinced of their sin in rejecting the Messiah, and observing the many advantages the Gentiles have received by embracing him, and they have lost by their contempt of him, will be provoked to an holy emulation of them, and be stirred up through their means to seek the Lord their God, and David their King; and thus things will wind about in Providence.

Note: during the Inter-Mediatorial Age, between the First and Second Coming of Christ, or it will never happen, for the Jews, or anyone else.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world,

the fall of the Jews made less of them
By "the world", from the next clause, is meant the Gentiles

and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles;

the few that did believe were the means of carrying and spreading the Gospel

afterward the Jews behaving in a very indecent manner towards the apostles of Christ, they turned in a manner wholly to the Gentiles;

and thus by the means of a few, a diminutive company, of which the Apostle Paul was one, the Gospel, the pearl of great price, treasure hid in a field, and put into earthen vessels, was carried into the Heathen world, and by it they were enriched.

"how much more their fulness?"

all Israel Will be Saved. (Gill)

This what Romans 11:11 & 12 says:

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall?

since they have stumbled, and have thereby fallen into a forlorn and miserable condition, are they always to continue in it?

God forbid:

The end which God had in view, in suffering the Jews to stumble and fall, was not their destruction, but rather the salvation of the Gentiles;

and especially not the destruction of "all" of them,

blindness had only happened "in part" to them;

for there was a remnant among them according to the election of grace, which should be saved;

a chosen number, which obtained life and righteousness by Christ;

but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles,

That is, the Gospel; which is sometimes called salvation, the Gospel of our salvation, the word of "salvation";

because it is a declaration of salvation by Christ, and is the power of God unto it;

or a means made effectual by the power of God to convince persons, both of their need, and of the worth of it, and also a means of the application of it to them, by the Spirit of God:

now this came to the Gentiles by the ministry of the apostles, according to the orders and command of Christ; and that through the fall of the Jews, their unbelief and rejection of the Messiah;

for the Gospel was first preached to them, but they contradicting and blaspheming it, the apostles turned to the Gentiles, and preached it to them, as the Lord had commanded them:

and thus they came to be acquainted with the doctrine of salvation by a crucified Christ, and to have it powerfully applied to their souls by the Spirit of God;

when salvation might be said to "come" to them, in such sense as our Lord says it did to Zacchaeus and his house, ( Luke 19:9 )

for to provoke them to jealousy.

The fall of the Jews makes way for the Gospel among the Gentiles, and this having had its effects with them, will be a means of putting the Jews upon serious thoughts about, and a studious inquiry after, the true Messiah, and salvation by him;

... to provoke them to jealousy in a good sense, as will appear ... when being convinced of their sin in rejecting the Messiah, and observing the many advantages the Gentiles have received by embracing him, and they have lost by their contempt of him, will be provoked to an holy emulation of them, and be stirred up through their means to seek the Lord their God, and David their King; and thus things will wind about in Providence.

Note: during the Inter-Mediatorial Age, between the First and Second Coming of Christ, or it will never happen, for the Jews, or anyone else.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world,

the fall of the Jews made less of them
By "the world", from the next clause, is meant the Gentiles

and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles;

the few that did believe were the means of carrying and spreading the Gospel

afterward the Jews behaving in a very indecent manner towards the apostles of Christ, they turned in a manner wholly to the Gentiles;

and thus by the means of a few, a diminutive company, of which the Apostle Paul was one, the Gospel, the pearl of great price, treasure hid in a field, and put into earthen vessels, was carried into the Heathen world, and by it they were enriched.

"how much more their fulness?"

all Israel Will be Saved. (Gill)

how much more WHOSE fulness? And don’t forget vs 25-32,

 

[glad4mercy]

how much more WHOSE fulness?

This what Romans 11:11 & 12 says:

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall?

since they have stumbled, and have thereby fallen into a forlorn and miserable condition, are they always to continue in it?

God forbid:

The end which God had in view, in suffering the Jews to stumble and fall, was not their destruction, but rather the salvation of the Gentiles;

and especially not the destruction of "all" of them,

blindness had only happened "in part" to them;

for there was a remnant among them according to the election of grace, which should be saved;

a chosen number, which obtained life and righteousness by Christ;

but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles,

That is, the Gospel; which is sometimes called salvation, the Gospel of our salvation, the word of "salvation";

because it is a declaration of salvation by Christ, and is the power of God unto it;

or a means made effectual by the power of God to convince persons, both of their need, and of the worth of it, and also a means of the application of it to them, by the Spirit of God:

now this came to the Gentiles by the ministry of the apostles, according to the orders and command of Christ; and that through the fall of the Jews, their unbelief and rejection of the Messiah;

for the Gospel was first preached to them, but they contradicting and blaspheming it, the apostles turned to the Gentiles, and preached it to them, as the Lord had commanded them:

and thus they came to be acquainted with the doctrine of salvation by a crucified Christ, and to have it powerfully applied to their souls by the Spirit of God;

when salvation might be said to "come" to them, in such sense as our Lord says it did to Zacchaeus and his house, ( Luke 19:9 )

for to provoke them to jealousy.

The fall of the Jews makes way for the Gospel among the Gentiles, and this having had its effects with them, will be a means of putting the Jews upon serious thoughts about, and a studious inquiry after, the true Messiah, and salvation by him;

... to provoke them to jealousy in a good sense, as will appear ... when being convinced of their sin in rejecting the Messiah, and observing the many advantages the Gentiles have received by embracing him, and they have lost by their contempt of him, will be provoked to an holy emulation of them, and be stirred up through their means to seek the Lord their God, and David their King; and thus things will wind about in Providence.

Note: during the Inter-Mediatorial Age, between the First and Second Coming of Christ, or it will never happen, for the Jews, or anyone else.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world,

the fall of the Jews made less of them
By "the world", from the next clause, is meant the Gentiles

and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles;

the few that did believe were the means of carrying and spreading the Gospel

afterward the Jews behaving in a very indecent manner towards the apostles of Christ, they turned in a manner wholly to the Gentiles;

and thus by the means of a few, a diminutive company, of which the Apostle Paul was one, the Gospel, the pearl of great price, treasure hid in a field, and put into earthen vessels, was carried into the Heathen world, and by it they were enriched.

"how much more their fulness?"

all Israel Will be Saved. (Gill)

intersting you should reference Gill. Check his commentary on Romans 11:25-26. You can find it on the Bible hub website

 

[glad4mercy]

intersting you should reference Gill. Check his commentary on Romans 11:25-26.

Does this mean that anyone on Earth is ever going to tell The Nation of Israel to Repent and Believe The Gospel?

nope! Where did you get that idea?

 

[Alan Gross]

how much more WHOSE fulness? And don’t forget vs 25-32,

"Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world..."

Answer: "the world"

By "the world", as is clear from the next clause,
is meant the Gentiles;

"and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles;
how much more their fulness?"

Answer: "the Gentiles".

how much more WHOSE fulness?

Answer: "the world" = "the Gentiles".

 

[Alan Gross]

intersting you should reference Gill. Check his commentary on Romans 11:25-26. You can find it on the Bible hub website

I wanted to see if Romans 11:11-12 was treated with the tyranny of common decency, for the sake of honestly.

There was a question, there, about, 'who's fullness'?

If that fork in the road is taken as 'the world', meaning 'the Gentiles', then looking at 25-26-32, is no problem.

Gill says what he says there.

Is there something you have to say?

 

[Alan Gross]

nope! Where did you get that idea?

you're kidding? to joke?

Has anyone?

 

[glad4mercy]

I wanted to see if Romans 11:11-12 was treated with the tyranny of common decency, for the sake of honestly.

There was a question, there, about, 'who's fullness'?

If that fork in the road is taken as 'the world', meaning 'the Gentiles', then looking at 25-26-32, is no problem.

Gill says what he says there.

Is there something you have to say?

clearly in verses 11-12, the ones who have fallen and whose future fulness brings even greater riches to the world is talking about physical Jews, not Gentiles

I think you’ll find Gils commentary on Romans 11:25 and forward intersting. Check it out.

 

[Alan Gross]

clearly in verses 11-12, the ones who have fallen and whose future fulness brings even greater riches to the world is talking about physical Jews, not Gentiles

I think you’ll find Gils commentary on Romans 11:25 and forward intersting. Check it out.

not what it says.

nothing remotely suggestive.

not there.

nothing to say about 25?

 

[glad4mercy]

not what it says.

nothing remotely suggestive.

not there.

nothing to say about 25?

Verses 11-12 are not talking about Gentiles. That much is definite

verse 25 says two things about the blindness of Israel.

a. It is partial- not all encompassing, there is a remnant

b. It is temporary. UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles come in. When the complete number of elect Gentiles are brought in, then the blindness of natural Israel will be removed.

so we have gotten way off track from the OP. I will start a new thread on Romans 11 and we can discuss this here. It will be up in a day or two.

I will provide a full exegesis and you and anyone else who wants to can do the same. We’ll see who can walk through the text consistently.

 

[glad4mercy]

"Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world..."

Answer: "the world"

By "the world", as is clear from the next clause,
is meant the Gentiles;

"and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles;
how much more their fulness?"

Answer: "the Gentiles".

how much more WHOSE fulness?

Answer: "the world" = "the Gentiles".

you glossed over the question. Read the question again and answer

Who are the words in CAPS referring to?

now if the fall of THEM be the riches of the world...

and the diminishing of THEM riches to the Gentiles...

how much more THEIR fulness.

the capitalized pronouns, what or who are they referring to?