Regeneration

Hi Benjamin;

It is interesting how some miss that point isn't it. Salvation is conditional Praise God it is. Amen
MB

 

So your Bible does no say “ye cannot hear my word”? That makes no sense. You quote just what I said, and then say that your Bible doesn’t say it.

The whole of Scripture msut be taken into account. And that is what you are not doing. The verses you cite tell us that all men know that God exists. He is clearly testified to in nature. But their sin causes them to refuse to believe, and the Bible describes that refusal as inability.

Then why did Jesus use a word of ability to say that they “cannot”? Are you thinking about how much your words contradict Jesus?

This is exactly what Calvinism teaches.

So you are saying that if people just knew more they would respond?

Those two questions have answers. The “it is” is supplied in English. The Greek does not have it because the Greek is perfectly clear without it. This is a difference in the languages. The “it is” is exactly what the Greek means. Second, the word because is conjunction that gives a reason for the preceding statement. So appealing to the Greek won’t help you. In fact, it makes it even more clear

 

Hello skypair.

Life for Adam and Eve was conditional. Death was the punishment for disobedience. Nothing else was required but, one law was to be kept.
The wages of sin is death not the not eating from the tree of life is death.
I read, "Do not touch that tree or you will die. I don't read, "Don't not touch that tree and you will die as well." There was one condition for life.
The tree of life was hidden after the fall physically representing the fact that God has determined that man must not find and take eternal life by there own efforts.
God hid the way to life, "And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."" Gen 3:22. Just as you have been told.
He hid the way but you say you know the way? If you ever get close to that tree you're going to get hurt, there is one there ready to prevent you and he has a sword to stop you with. No one takes life it is a gift of God.

On the contrary.

If we are nothing but marrionettes, so be it. That is not what I find in scriptures though. There you go, a baby marrionette.
And regeneration is faith given -- that's true, too. Then you agree, regeneration comes before faith?

PS 94:11 The LORD knows the thoughts of man; he knows that they are futile.
PR 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

Man cannot even chose the socks he wears how do you think you can choose to overcome your fallen nature? You think you beat it? It has you round the throat.

Are you saying faith is sort of really really believing?

Believing faith and belief are the same words doesn't take any getting round?

Answer the point please.

john.

 

First, is the condescension really necessary?

Second, I do not disagree with what you have written here. I am curious why you think I would.

 

Hello GordonSlocum.

Rom 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. Php 2:13.

So if you confess with your mouth it is because God was about His good purpose. Easy peasy.

And if you believe in your heart it is because God has replaced the stone with life. When the seed takes root it takes root in good soil. Jesus came to call sinners not the righteous.

It is still true for me, I confess His Name and I believe God raised Him from the dead and I know I am saved because I believe God raised Jesus from the dead and I confess His Name. Comfort and joy for the Children of God. Never will He forsake any of the elect.

john.

 

Regeneration Then the Gift of Faith

... Salvation from beginning to end is entirely by the Sovereign Grace of the Triune God. During his earthly ministry Jesus Christ expressed this truth by the following simple statements:[/quote] Calvinists always assing things they don't understand to "the Sovereign Grace of the Triune God" (or words to that effect.)

Amen. But what untruth are you going to hang on this obvious truth -- that's the issue.

Beginning with God "foreknowing" who would believe, old regular. That is where we are in this discussion. Some, knowing that faith is given only by God -- and wanting to prove that God "does it all" -- say that belief = faith. NO. Belief is what man is called upon to do in order to receive faith.


Regeneration/rebirth is AFTER belief. It is God "translating us into the kingdom of His dear Son" once we believe (Col 1:13). We are "born again" into the kingdom like your reference to Jo 3 tell us, right?

And what we would really like to know is when God does this. I see from your list below that even your author does not speculate on that not knowing himself where to place it. So I suggest we place it AFTER we believe and are justified before God.


ABSOLUTELY and VERIFIABLY NOT!

skypair[/QUOTE]

First “skypair” you need to watch your language! Perhaps if you look long enough you can find your faux pas.

Second you say:

but you verify nothing you say. Present some Scripture to refute my post rather than blather.

I see that you do not believe the words of the Apostle Paul when he states in Ephesians 2:1-8 that regeneration is solely the work of the Holy Spirit. I doubt that you will accept the words of Jesus Christ in the following passage:

John 3:5-8, KJV)
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

In this passage Jesus Christ is speaking to Nicodemus about Spiritual rebirth or regeneration. Nothing is said about any required action on the part of Nicodemus, for example faith. Also note that Jesus Christ in verse 8 states that just as we do not understand the wind so we do not understand the act of regeneration but He does tell us that it is being born of the Spirit with absolutely no action required on the part of the recipient, just as we have nothing to do with the wind.

Now I am certain that you are like those Jews about which God speaks to Isaiah [Isaiah 6:9], about which Jesus Christ speaks to the Jews in Matthew 13:14 and about which Paul speaks to the Jews in Acts 28:27.

Isaiah 6:9, KJV)
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

Matthew 13:14, KJV
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Acts 28:27, KJV
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

 

Regeneration, of Man or By God

Can someone out there who believes that man is the author of his own salvation please explain away the following Scripture for me?

Hebrews 12:1,2, KJV
1. Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Jesus is the author of our faith and the finisher of our faith!

Romans 8:29,30, KJV
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

What part did man play in any of the above events?

1 Timothy 2:5, KJV
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Does Jesus Christ mediate for man or does man mediate for himself through what some call ‘faith’ that originates within himself.?
.

 

I must really be dense, but I don't see where you said anything about regeneration in that post on Romans 10:8-10. Can you point it out for me? Thanks.

 

Here is where this is going. I will repeat what I said before. When Calvinists say that regeneration precedes faith we are using a different definition of regeneration than you are. We do not equate "regenerated" with "saved" as you do. Regeneration, in my view, is a part of salvation, not the whole.

​

Different people would state the order differently, of course, but for the sake of this discussion let's assume that I follow the Reformed order given above. The fact that believers are presented with the gospel and choose to believe and that unbelievers are presented with the gospel and choose to not believe says nothing about whether believers are regenerated before or after they begin to believe.

 

Oldregular (that's an oxymoron. I'm old but I ain't regular! :laugh

You should join Pastor Larry and me on "What is Calvinism." Many of your objections would be answered by looking in at my most recent post.

Absolutely! He designed it -- He made the way. I don't see how anyone would disagree with that.

I don't see that Paul says we are regenerated before we are saved - no.

Let's get one thing straight -- disagreeing with you is NOT disagreeing with scripture. You've got a long way to go in proving that Calvin, whom you follow, knew what he was talking about.

Regarding the passage -- you didn't read far enough regarding what is required of us. John 3:15 - "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." Jesus told Nicodemus about the destination, then He told him how.

Actually, it is me that has a premonition about you -- look up 1Cor 2:14.

skypair

 

Hi Pastor Larry;

That's exactly what I said but what I quoted doesn't say what yours does it doesn't say "it is because" it says "because ye cannot hear my word." That word because makes it a question not a statement.
The words "It is" aren't in the originals. They should have been in Italics when they were added.

I am taking the whole of scripture in to account. You're the one with one verse and claiming this is the way it is because of what your Bible says. One verse is not the whole of scripture

That is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that we must be convicted by the Holy Spirit and convinced of Jesus Christ. This is the result of the Holy Spirit's doings. Man is just willing to listen at first. After being convicted and convinced man must willingly submit to the righteousness of God in order to have the righteousness of Christ.
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

We aren't saved by our faith it isn't righteous enough. Our's is dirty rags. Our faith only shows a willingness. An acceptance of the seed. Many hold the truth of Salvation and understand it and still they refuse to submit to God.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Convicted and convinced of Christ are both acts that cannot be counted as works for Salvation. They are not according to any Law. We aren't saved by what we do this is true but we aren't saved against our wills either.
We aren't saved by our faith but it is our faith that we must have in order to stand in Grace that we might be saved by the righteousness of Christ.
It is by Grace that we hear the word . It is by Grace we are convinced. It is by Grace we are convicted of our sins. It is by Grace we are drawn. It is by Grace we are saved or regenerated. Changing the definition of the word Regeneration doesn't change it's true meaning, nor is it the beginnin point of Salvation.

Actually this is only your opinion and as I said I don't base truth on one verse. Romans 10:18 says we can hear, and have heard. Of course you would disagree with that but, are we to throw out the rest of the Bible based on what one verse says? Arguing over the definition of Greek words seems senseless any way when better experts than you or I translated the KJV to begin with. I admit there are other good translations and they may not all say it the same way but, the end result is the same. There is nothing in scripture that supports a disability that would require an act by God such as regeneration of the spirit to enable men who aren't disabled to begin with.
Men may not come to the Light which is why Christ told us to preach it to them any way. We are to shine the light on them while they are hiding in the darkness.
Salvation is all a work of God,though there is nothing to suggest that God forces man to be saved or to have his heart changed.
MB

 

Regeneration, the Initial Event in Salvation

Your concept of the Sovereignty of God in Salvation is sort of like 'slopping the hogs', you throw it in the trough and they get it if it looks good. [See Matthew 7:6]

Read and reread and pray until you can understand. Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:1 that we were spiritually dead. A dead man can do nothing, whether Spiritually dead or physically dead, except perhaps stink. Paul tells us in the following passage that while we were Spiritually dead God made us Spiritually alive; that is regeneration. I use the NKJV in case you don't understand 'quicken'.

Ephesians 2:4,5 NKJV
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

I was right, you don't believe it.

I don't follow Calvin, I simply believe what Scripture states. Try it you may like it!

The 'whosoever' is one who has experienced regeneration.

:godisgood:

 

“It is” is there (in italics BTW) because it is necessary in English to make the sentence. It is not a question. It is a statement, as the context makes clear.

The testimony of Scripture across the board is to the total depravity and inability of man to come to God.

Now you have departed from orthodoxy.

Glad you agree with Calvinists on this.

No, we are not. And that is my point. You cannot throw out the teaching of the whole Bible because you disagree with it.

Whose arguing over the definition of Greek words? I am not. I am pointing out something about the Greek that God inspired.

John 8, Eph 1, Rom 8, Eph 4 are just a few passages that immediately jump to mind that directly contradict your position.

Glad you agree with us Calvinists on this at least.

 

Oh I see you quoted it from memory and forgot the italics.

Where? Scripture please

No I haven't what I believe is scriptural and that is about as orthodox as it gets

I never said that Calvinism is completely wrong. Although my agreement is with scripture. I'm sure there is a lot Calvinist agree with in scripture, but that doesn't make scripture, Calvinism.

Disagreeing with the logic of that guy Turetin (or how ever you spell it ) is not disagreeing with scripture. It's a fact is it not? that John 8:43 says nothing about being totally depraved? It says nothing about being disabled, it says nothing about a need to be enabled when we're never disabled to begin with.
Being convinced of the truth of Christ as the Son of God is the beginning point of Salvation. This is the seed of the word implanted in our hearts. This is not Salvation but is the start of the process. It is God's word that changes the heart of man through the Holy Spirit.

It doesn't seem you're going to change my mind nor will I change yours. Let's just agree that we disagree.

I still disagree with you on this. I've studied those passages and not one of them support a total depravity. I admit that man is a sinner and is hell bound with out the intervention of the Holy Spirit and God's word. Still there is no such disability as Calvinism claims. Scripture doesn't even suggest a disability though man doesn't respond with out intervention. Why should man go looking for a God he is convinced of himself doesn't exist?
There is a natural man and he is spiritually dead but there is no reason to assume spiritual death is any thing like the physical when spiritual birth and the physical isn't the same. Why should spiritual death be like the physical. Man may not look for God but he certainly isn't kept from responding to the Spirit and the word. Else why would the Spirit convict him?

Something we might agree on. Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is my redeemer, and I Love Him more than Life.
MB

 

No, I cut and paste. Not all versions do the italics. The NIV omits It is. Just compare the versions.

rom 8, John 8; eph 2, 4 etc. All through it. Surely if have studied reformed theology enough to have such a dogmatic opinion, you have seen hte passages that Calvinists use to support their belief.

When you say we are not saved by our faith, you have departed from orthodoxy and embraced heresy. Period. God saves those who believe on him, no matter whether you are arminian or Calvinist (or like to pretend there is some mysterious ground in between).

It says "you cannot hear my word." He is not talking about physical hearing, but about understand, and he says "You cannot" using a word of ability. It is "You are not able."

then I would suggest you need to study them more.

It says "You cannot please God." How is that not a disability? Perhaps we are using different dictionaries.

All men know God exist. When God draws someone, they come.