Regeneration

[percho]

How long does regeneration take. Not long, think twinkling of an eye.

Unless you think our spiritual regeneration would take longer than our physical regeneration.

Spiritually we are baptized into Christ's death, then arise a new creation. So regeneration appears to occur in less than a New York minute.

R6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Presently begotten of God.

Spiritually Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: (boy or girl) but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. [For at this moment in the twinkling of an eye, Jesus will be the firstborn from the dead of many brethren.] (You are correct about one thing.) In a moment,(+) in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

Then born of God.



Void your mind of what you have always believed and answer just from scripture above, my previous post scriptures, plus there are many others I could post and which I know you know of just from reading your post. Case in point. 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
In that passage we are not born again but by the resurrection of Jesus the firstborn from the dead we through the receiving the Holy Spirit are conceived for the next verse. 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, (We receive our inheritance at our birth just the same as in Hebrews 1 it states Jesus obtained, by inheritance, a name more excellent than the angels when it was said. thou art my Son this day (resurrection see Rom. 1:4) I have begotten thee.

? According to scripture does my point of view have a leg to stand on?

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet again Yeshuha1 postulates the opposite of scripture. We are born not my our will but by God's will. Hence, God draws us through the gospel, we embrace the gospel, God either credits our faith, or not, depending if we believe fully from the heart, but if God does credit our faith as righteousness, Romans 4:5, He puts us spiritually in Christ, where we are regenerated, made alive, born anew, 1 Cor. 1:30 based on our faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. The act of God choosing to put us in Christ is our individual election for salvation.

God chooses to save us in Christ, he predestined/determined all of us who are the Elect in that to become saved, and we place faith in jesus to confirm that Election of God!

 

[Van]

God chooses to save us in Christ, he predestined/determined all of us who are the Elect in that to become saved, and we place faith in jesus to confirm that Election of God!

Calvinist assertions devoid of biblical support. I say again, we are born again, regenerated, made alive when and not before God spiritually puts us in Christ. Therefore, after we believe, John 1:12-13.

 

[Van]

If your view has a leg to stand on, it is very shaky.

You seem to mix together our past tense spiritual rebirth, and our future resurrection or physical rebirth.

So lets back up, does scripture say we have been, past tense, born again? See 1 Peter 1:23. So no matter the duration, it is complete before we end our physical lives. 1 Peter 1:3 also says we have been born again, past tense, to a living hope, through the resurrection of Christ Jesus. So no one was spiritually born again until after Jesus was resurrected. So none of the OT saints obtained approval by faith because they had been regenerated, made alive, born anew.

 

[jonathanD]

The lamb was slain before the foundations of the world right? Do you think we might be majoring on temporal positions that are of less significance than we assign them?

Regeneration is causally prior to faith. Election is causally prior to regeneratiom. Never are any of the three separated.

 

[percho]

If your view has a leg to stand on, it is very shaky.

You seem to mix together our past tense spiritual rebirth, and our future resurrection or physical rebirth.

So lets back up, does scripture say we have been, past tense, born again? See 1 Peter 1:23. So no matter the duration, it is complete before we end our physical lives. 1 Peter 1:3 also says we have been born again, past tense, to a living hope, through the resurrection of Christ Jesus. So no one was spiritually born again until after Jesus was resurrected. So none of the OT saints obtained approval by faith because they had been regenerated, made alive, born anew.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, The Holy Spirit is the seed given to us through, the resurrected, word living of God, Jesus no more to to return to corruption. The Holy Spirit begets not births us as sons of God. It begets us as heirs, nor inheritors of eternal life, ; Titus 3:3:6,7 Which he shed on us abundantly through (Jesus received the Spirit then the Spirit was given to us.) Jesus Christ our Saviour;
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

We will be inheritors when we are born of God from the dead just as Jesus was the firstborn from the dead.

When we are conformed to his image, the image of eternal life, then He (Jesus) will be the firstborn of many brethren. (so born) Rom 8:29

We are begotten heirs of God, by having received the Spirit of adoption, joint heirs with Christ who has already by resurrection inherited from God all things.
See Hebrews 1:1-14 esp V4,5 and also Heb. 2:6-10.

We have no more right to qualify life, as spiritual and physical than we do death.

Go to Blue Letter Bible and search spiritual life and or spiritual death and see how many hits you receive.

1 Peter 1:3- says the very same as above.


My leg is getting stronger.

 

[Winman]

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, The Holy Spirit is the seed given to us through, the resurrected, word living of God, Jesus no more to to return to corruption. The Holy Spirit begets not births us as sons of God. It begets us as heirs, nor inheritors of eternal life, ; Titus 3:3:6,7 Which he shed on us abundantly through (Jesus received the Spirit then the Spirit was given to us.) Jesus Christ our Saviour;
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

We will be inheritors when we are born of God from the dead just as Jesus was the firstborn from the dead.

When we are conformed to his image, the image of eternal life, then He (Jesus) will be the firstborn of many brethren. (so born) Rom 8:29

We are begotten heirs of God, by having received the Spirit of adoption, joint heirs with Christ who has already by resurrection inherited from God all things.
See Hebrews 1:1-14 esp V4,5 and also Heb. 2:6-10.

We have no more right to qualify life, as spiritual and physical than we do death.

Go to Blue Letter Bible and search spiritual life and or spiritual death and see how many hits you receive.

1 Peter 1:3- says the very same as above.


My leg is getting stronger.

Percho, it is always difficult for me to understand your posts, but I think (I could be wrong) I get what you are saying here, and am somewhat in agreement.

Jesus said God was the God of the "living" speaking of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. So, Abraham was "alive' in that he was imputed righteous, he was no longer condemned or "dead in sin". Nevertheless, the OT saints had not received the Holy Spirit yet, and could not come into the presence of God. This is why all OT saints had to go wait in Abraham's Bosom until Jesus was glorified and the Holy Spirit was given. I believe that Jesus gave all these OT saints waiting in Abraham's Bosom the gift of the Holy Spirit and then could take them into the presence of the Father.

Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

I personally believe verse 8 is speaking of those OT saints who were waiting in Abraham's Bosom. I believe Jesus gave these saints the indwelling Holy Spirit and then led them out of Abraham's Bosom and took them to heaven.

The reason OT saints had to wait in Abraham's Bosom is because the blood had not been sprinkled on the mercy seat in heaven yet. Jesus as our High Priest could not be touched by Mary. He had to ascend to heaven and offer his blood on the mercy seat.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Where I may differ from you is that scriptures say we are the sons of God NOW.

1 Jhn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

We are not waiting to become the sons of God in the future, we are the sons of God now. However, we are waiting for our new resurrected body. Frankly, I think the word "regeneration" is misused by all of us, and is speaking of when we will receive our incorruptible bodies.

When you post, say directly what you are trying to say. The problem with your posts is you seldom tell us what point you are trying to make. You are too vague. We cannot read your mind. I don't mean this as an insult, I am just telling you why it is difficult to understand your posts.

 

[Van]

The lamb was slain before the foundations of the world right? Do you think we might be majoring on temporal positions that are of less significance than we assign them?

Regeneration is causally prior to faith. Election is causally prior to regeneration. Never are any of the three separated.

I hold a differing view. The Lamb was slain after the foundation of world about 2000 years ago. The Greek grammar is difficult in Revelation 13:8. The NASB reads "...whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of the Lamb who has been slain." Here is how this difficulty is addressed in the NET footnote: "The prepositional phrase “since the foundation of the world” is traditionally translated as a modifier of the immediately preceding phrase in the Greek text, “the Lamb who was killed” (so also G. B. Caird, Revelation [HNTC], 168), but it is more likely that the phrase “since the foundation of the world” modifies the verb “written” (as translated above). Confirmation of this can be found in Rev 17:8 where the phrase “written in the book of life since the foundation of the world” occurs with no ambiguity."

So there is less support in scripture for nullifying the given sequence by asserting time be ignored.

Individual election for salvation is "through" faith, so 2 Thessalonians 2:13 puts faith before election, and we agree regeneration occurs after election for when we are spiritually put in Christ (through the sanctification by the Spirit), we are made alive together with Christ.

As far as thinking the three, faith, election, and regeneration, are never separated, yes and no. If the faith is credited as righteousness by God, Romans 4:5, then the three go together in the twinkling of an eye. However, dead faith, or faith God chooses in His sovereignty to not credit, can exist for life without election or regeneration, Matthew 7:21-23.

 

[Van]

Hey Percho, you need to read what you compose before you post it.

John 16:7 says Jesus sends the Holy Spirit to believers whose faith has been credited as righteousness. We are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, and that is when we are spiritually born anew.

And when we are spiritually born anew, we reborn as spiritual children of God, and as children of God we are heirs to eternal life. A heir is an inheritor or one who will inherit. Thus having the Spirit of Adoption means (1) we are spiritual children of God already and (2) we will be physically resurrected, our adoption as physical children of God.

Pretty simple really.

 

[percho]

Percho, it is always difficult for me to understand your posts, but I think (I could be wrong) I get what you are saying here, and am somewhat in agreement.

Jesus said God was the God of the "living" speaking of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. So, Abraham was "alive' in that he was imputed righteous, he was no longer condemned or "dead in sin". Nevertheless, the OT saints had not received the Holy Spirit yet, and could not come into the presence of God. This is why all OT saints had to go wait in Abraham's Bosom until Jesus was glorified and the Holy Spirit was given. I believe that Jesus gave all these OT saints waiting in Abraham's Bosom the gift of the Holy Spirit and then could take them into the presence of the Father.

Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

I personally believe verse 8 is speaking of those OT saints who were waiting in Abraham's Bosom. I believe Jesus gave these saints the indwelling Holy Spirit and then led them out of Abraham's Bosom and took them to heaven.

The reason OT saints had to wait in Abraham's Bosom is because the blood had not been sprinkled on the mercy seat in heaven yet. Jesus as our High Priest could not be touched by Mary. He had to ascend to heaven and offer his blood on the mercy seat.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Where I may differ from you is that scriptures say we are the sons of God NOW.

1 Jhn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

We are not waiting to become the sons of God in the future, we are the sons of God now. However, we are waiting for our new resurrected body. Frankly, I think the word "regeneration" is misused by all of us, and is speaking of when we will receive our incorruptible bodies.

When you post, say directly what you are trying to say. The problem with your posts is you seldom tell us what point you are trying to make. You are too vague. We cannot read your mind. I don't mean this as an insult, I am just telling you why it is difficult to understand your posts.

KISS: Keep It Simply Simple

Like myself you covered a lot be to keep it, kiss, one at a time.

But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

It is people that die and it will be people who are raised from the dead. People that are given life by resurrection from the dead.

Acts 13:30 But God raised him (Jesus) from the dead:

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that his soul was not left in Hades, neither his flesh did see corruption.
The body of Jesus being resurrected from death, after three days and three nights, did not see corruption and neither would return to corruption and also the soul of Jesus was also resurrected from Hades the realm of dead souls.

Abraham, Issac and Jacob were people.

Matthew 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Here are three dead people. How are they going to be in the kingdom of God?
1 Thes 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. How are these dead people going to be in the kingdom of God?

By resurrection from the dead. As touching the resurrection of the dead.
1Th4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so (By resurrection from the dead) them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (Jesus) (Into the kingdom of God)

The following still holds true today as the day Hebrews was written and includes Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Hebrews 11:39,40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: (eternal life in the kingdom of God) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

 

[percho]

Hey Percho, you need to read what you compose before you post it.

John 16:7 says Jesus sends the Holy Spirit to believers whose faith has been credited as righteousness. We are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, and that is when we are spiritually born anew.

And when we are spiritually born anew, we reborn as spiritual children of God, and as children of God we are heirs to eternal life. A heir is an inheritor or one who will inherit. Thus having the Spirit of Adoption means (1) we are spiritual children of God already and (2) we will be physically resurrected, our adoption as physical children of God.

Pretty simple really.

What was imperative to take place in order that the Holy Spirit might be given to men?

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Now all will die in Adam and the difference comes when those same all are made alive. The ones that have the Holy Spirit of God the Father who raised Jesus his Son from the dead dwelling within and or had so at death will be raised/changed to eternal life and the others will face some type of judgement relative to being able to die again. I posted that way for I am not sure it is one or the other as I am sure you feel it is one or the other.

I never said one wasn't a child of God. However you were your parents child for the amount of time your mother carried you within her, but you were not at that time say a citizen of the US or of the world.
There is a reason people would like to see the birth certificate of our President. We, by the Spirit of adoption, are the children of God yet we are still flesh and blood and cannot inherit the kingdom of God as such and must be born again into the kingdom of God. John 3. 1 Cor 15.

 

[Winman]

KISS: Keep It Simply Simple

Like myself you covered a lot be to keep it, kiss, one at a time.

But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

It is people that die and it will be people who are raised from the dead. People that are given life by resurrection from the dead.

Acts 13:30 But God raised him (Jesus) from the dead:

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that his soul was not left in Hades, neither his flesh did see corruption.
The body of Jesus being resurrected from death, after three days and three nights, did not see corruption and neither would return to corruption and also the soul of Jesus was also resurrected from Hades the realm of dead souls.

Abraham, Issac and Jacob were people.

Matthew 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Here are three dead people. How are they going to be in the kingdom of God?
1 Thes 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. How are these dead people going to be in the kingdom of God?

By resurrection from the dead. As touching the resurrection of the dead.
1Th4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so (By resurrection from the dead) them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (Jesus) (Into the kingdom of God)

The following still holds true today as the day Hebrews was written and includes Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Hebrews 11:39,40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: (eternal life in the kingdom of God) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

I know all of this scripture, but I have no idea what you are trying to say. I can't read your mind, I do not know what you are saying.

What are you saying?

 

[Van]

What was imperative to take place in order that the Holy Spirit might be given to men?

Why not address my response to your last post. Why do you never address what is said, but just move on to yet another topic?

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

What has this to do with the topic of regeneration occurring only after Christ's resurrection?

Now all will die in Adam and the difference comes when those same all are made alive.

Unless you tell us whether you are referring to being made alive spiritually at conversion, or made alive physically at Christ's second coming, you are simply evading the issue.

The ones that have the Holy Spirit of God the Father who raised Jesus his Son from the dead dwelling within and or had so at death will be raised/changed to eternal life and the others will face some type of judgement relative to being able to die again.

Those with the Holy Spirit are saved and will never die, they have eternal life. Those who do not have the Holy Spirit are the lost and they will be resurrected to face the Great White Throne judgment and then will be tossed into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.

I never said one wasn't a child of God.

As a spiritual child of God you mean. And as you should know, as a spiritual child of God you have already, past tense, entered the kingdom of the Son!!!

However you were your parents child for the amount of time your mother carried you within her, but you were not at that time say a citizen of the US or of the world.
There is a reason people would like to see the birth certificate of our President. We, by the Spirit of adoption, are the children of God yet we are still flesh and blood and cannot inherit the kingdom of God as such and must be born again into the kingdom of God. John 3. 1 Cor 15.

This is wrong. We have already been born again spiritually and sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit. When Christ comes all those with the Holy Spirit will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and meet Jesus in the air. Because we have been born again spiritually, we will inherit eternal life when Jesus returns.

So once more by the numbers, scripture speaks of two separate things, (1)first the spiritual rebirth which occurs at conversion when we arise in Christ a new creation, and (2) our physical adoption as children of God at His second coming.

 

[percho]

I know all of this scripture, but I have no idea what you are trying to say. I can't read your mind, I do not know what you are saying.

What are you saying?

(the following from your post.
Jesus said God was the God of the "living" speaking of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. So, Abraham was "alive' in that he was imputed righteous, he was no longer condemned or "dead in sin". Nevertheless, the OT saints had not received the Holy Spirit yet, and could not come into the presence of God. This is why all OT saints had to go wait in Abraham's Bosom until Jesus was glorified and the Holy Spirit was given. I believe that Jesus gave all these OT saints waiting in Abraham's Bosom the gift of the Holy Spirit and then could take them into the presence of the Father. )


Jesus was saying that these people would live again by resurrection from the dead. Not that they were already alive.

The scripture I posted shows dead people are resurrected from the dead. Not dead bodies. Of course for a dead person to be a person it would need a body so bodies are also resurrected. Just as Jesus was body and soul resurrected from the dead.

 

[Winman]

Jesus said God was the God of the "living" speaking of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. So, Abraham was "alive' in that he was imputed righteous, he was no longer condemned or "dead in sin". Nevertheless, the OT saints had not received the Holy Spirit yet, and could not come into the presence of God. This is why all OT saints had to go wait in Abraham's Bosom until Jesus was glorified and the Holy Spirit was given. I believe that Jesus gave all these OT saints waiting in Abraham's Bosom the gift of the Holy Spirit and then could take them into the presence of the Father.


Jesus was saying that these people would live again by resurrection from the dead. Not that they were already alive.

The scripture I posted shows bead people are resurrected from the dead. Not dead bodies. Of course for a dead person to be a person it would need a body so bodies are also resurrected. Just as Jesus was body and soul resurrected from the dead.

Thank you Percho, now I clearly understand what you are saying.

I would disagree with you, I showed you the scripture that says NOW are we the sons of God. A person who has trusted Jesus has been baptized into his Spirit.

1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

We have our own spirit. When we trust Christ our spirit is washed and joined unto the Holy Spirit. We have life now because Jesus has life now.

It is similar to physical birth. You are a product of two parents. You are partly your father, and you are partly your mother. This union creates a new creature who is an individual. You are not your mother or father, you are an individual, though you share qualities of both parents.

Likewise, when we trust Christ our spirit is joined to the Holy Spirit. We are a new creation. We are now partakers of the divine nature.

2 Pet 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Our spirit is joined to the Holy Spirit now. We are not God and never will be, but we are partakers of the divine nature.

It is the Holy Spirit in us that will raise up our bodies.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Our present body is dead because of sin, but our spirit is alive because it is joined to the Holy Spirit. On the resurrection day our mortal bodies will be raised incorruptible by the Holy Spirit that dwells in us.

 

[percho]

Thank you Percho, now I clearly understand what you are saying.

I would disagree with you, I showed you the scripture that says NOW are we the sons of God. A person who has trusted Jesus has been baptized into his Spirit.

1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

We have our own spirit. When we trust Christ our spirit is washed and joined unto the Holy Spirit. We have life now because Jesus has life now.

It is similar to physical birth. You are a product of two parents. You are partly your father, and you are partly your mother. This union creates a new creature who is an individual. You are not your mother or father, you are an individual, though you share qualities of both parents.

Likewise, when we trust Christ our spirit is joined to the Holy Spirit. We are a new creation. We are now partakers of the divine nature.

2 Pet 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Our spirit is joined to the Holy Spirit now. We are not God and never will be, but we are partakers of the divine nature.

It is the Holy Spirit in us that will raise up our bodies.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Our present body is dead because of sin, but our spirit is alive because it is joined to the Holy Spirit. On the resurrection day our mortal bodies will be raised incorruptible by the Holy Spirit that dwells in us.

Per yours above I put in bold. Does not the following two verses speak of the resurrection as the consummation of the birth as a spiritual being?

Luke 20:35,36 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Is that not the consummation of the following in bold? 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Is not the following not speaking of the same moment, the moment of our absolute birth? Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Does that "birth," not have to take place before we are perfect, completed sons of God fit to Inherit the kingdom of God, the Age to come of Luke 20:35 also of 1 Cor. 15:50? Is that not exactly what took place when Jesus is called the firstborn from the dead? Did he not by resurrection go from being a flesh and blood subject to corruption man to a flesh and bone man no more to return to corruption. Will we not be the exact same type of man when we are conformed to the aforementioned image of the Son of God, Jesus and he will then be the firstborn of many brethren, so born? Does that not take place at the exact same moment as all above?

Was the resurrection of Jesus a regeneration of a man subject to corruption at death to a man no more to return to corruption? See Acts 13:30----

Do we have a savior in Jesus the Christ the only begotten Son of God the son of David, the seed of Abraham or not?

Matt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory,

When Jesus comes to sit in the throne of his glory would that not be the exact moment we would follow him in the regeneration?


If the Son of God the Son of man had not gone, "through washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5)," because he, "became obedient unto death even the death of the cross (Phil.2:8)," we would have no savoir and the Holy Spirit would not have been shed upon us, for he would not have, "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. (John 16:7)," gone away and he would not have, " Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, (Acts 2:33)," and the Holy Spirit would and could not have been shed on us.

 

[Van]

Percho continues to try to say "regeneration" refers to our bodily resurrection only and does not refer to being reborn spiritually. However Titus 3:5 says "He saved us" past tense, something that has already happened, by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit." Therefore spiritual regeneration occurs at conversion.

So scripture is clear, we have been reborn, past tense. We have been regenerated, past tense. And we have been made alive, past tense.

We are, past tense, children of God already, and therefore heirs to eternal life. Therefore, we are predestined to resurrected in glorified bodies at His second coming.

So by the numbers once again, when we are spiritually placed in Christ, we are regenerated, reborn, made alive and become as a new creation a spiritual child of God. We are therefore heirs, and have the Spirit of Adoption, God having predestined us to be physically resurrected in glorified bodies, hence sons of the resurrection.

 

[percho]

Percho continues to try to say "regeneration" refers to our bodily resurrection only and does not refer to being reborn spiritually. However Titus 3:5 says "He saved us" past tense, something that has already happened, by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit." Therefore spiritual regeneration occurs at conversion.

So scripture is clear, we have been reborn, past tense. We have been regenerated, past tense. And we have been made alive, past tense.

We are, past tense, children of God already, and therefore heirs to eternal life. Therefore, we are predestined to resurrected in glorified bodies at His second coming.

So by the numbers once again, when we are spiritually placed in Christ, we are regenerated, reborn, made alive and become as a new creation a spiritual child of God. We are therefore heirs, and have the Spirit of Adoption, God having predestined us to be physically resurrected in glorified bodies, hence sons of the resurrection.

There is something past tense that will bring us salvation alright, but it was what the Son of Man, Jesus did and then what His Father did for him.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

That is what Jesus did, died the death appointed to Adam. However you will not find any life in death for you or anyone else, 1Cor. 15:16,17 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Acts 13:30 But God (The Father see Gal.1:1) raised him from the dead:

What kind of life do you think the Father gave to his dead Son when he regenerated him, raised him from the dead, quickened him? John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth. Verse 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Now with Jesus having died and been regenerated again with, life in himself, eternal life; Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. Shall be when? Balance of John 5:21 even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. When? At his coming. The gift of the Holy Spirit sets the recipient thereof apart in Christ to be resurrected just as Jesus was resurrected and or changed for those alive at his appearing.

There is your tense.

Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

He suffered death by being obedient thereto And God the Father made him the perfect author (captain) of salvation by the resurrection. Heb 5:8,9 say the very same.

That was past tense.

 

[Van]

Did anyone see where the scripture that says we have been regenerated, born again and made alive in the past was addressed? Nope?

Salvation comes in three parts, (1) positional sanctification when we are put spiritually in Christ, where we are justified and therefore saved from the penalty of sin; (2) progressive sanctification during our physical lifetime after being put in Christ where we grow more Christ-like, serve Christ and if we build on the foundation of Christ with imperishable things, earn eternal rewards being free from the power of sin; and (3) ultimate sanctification when Christ returns and we are physically resurrected in glorified bodies, free at last from the presence of sin. So a person in phase 2, would say we have been reconciled i.e. justified in the past, but we will be ultimately saved in glorified bodies with eternal life in the future.

No need to present salvation as a mixed up muddle when even a child like me can understand it.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Did anyone see where the scripture that says we have been regenerated, born again and made alive in the past was addressed? Nope?

Salvation comes in three parts, (1) positional sanctification when we are put spiritually in Christ, where we are justified and therefore saved from the penalty of sin; (2) progressive sanctification during our physical lifetime after being put in Christ where we grow more Christ-like, serve Christ and if we build on the foundation of Christ with imperishable things, earn eternal rewards being free from the power of sin; and (3) ultimate sanctification when Christ returns and we are physically resurrected in glorified bodies, free at last from the presence of sin. So a person in phase 2, would say we have been reconciled i.e. justified in the past, but we will be ultimately saved in glorified bodies with eternal life in the future.

No need to present salvation as a mixed up muddle when even a child like me can understand it.

Amen, bro!