Regimentation

[Van]

One of the reasons we humans like freedom is we do not like regimentation. This is especially true of non-Reformed Baptists.

Regimentation refers to enforced uniformity by governing authorities, especially based on creeds such as Marxist doctrine. In the religious world, we have "top down" organizations, such as Catholic or Calvinist, and we have "bottom up" organizations such as autonomous baptist churches.

And of course the Bible teaches it is better to be free than slave. Also, many believe freedom provides the best way forward due to the utility of individual or independent group innovation. OTOH, about 20% of people think they know best, and ought to tell everyone else what to do.

Which brings us to the two views of Christ's gospel, one being God offers the opportunity of salvation to all, and the other being God already has decided such that if you are not "in" there is no opportunity to alter your damnation. Of course the second one reflects regimentation, a relic of the dark ages.

So the issue before us, is what does the Bible actually say?

Isaiah 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me,
Because the LORD anointed me
To bring good news to the humble;
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim release to captives
And freedom to prisoners;

Romans 8:20-21
For the creation [humanity] was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope hat the creation [humanity] itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

1 Corinthians 10:29
Now by “conscience” I do not mean your own, but the other person's; for why is my freedom judged by another's conscience?

Galatians 2:4
Yet it was a concern because of the false brothers secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy on our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to enslave us.

Galatians 5:1
It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

Galatians 5:13
For you were called to freedom, brothers [siblings]; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but serve one another through love.

1 Peter 2:16
Act as free people, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bond-servants of God.

 

[canadyjd]

One of the reasons we humans like freedom is we do not like regimentation. This is especially true of non-Reformed ….

And of course the Bible teaches it is better to be free than slave….

You remain in error because your thinking is secular and not biblical.

Scripture tells us a person is a slave to sin OR a slave to God.

Scripture tells us we are slaves to who we obey.

Jesus said His “yoke” was easy… that is a yoke of slavery.

We rest in our Master, our Lord. He alone gives us peace.

As long as we focus on our “freedom”, we will never have peace.

Peace to you…. Really… peace to you

 

[David Lamb]

One of the reasons we humans like freedom is we do not like regimentation. This is especially true of non-Reformed Baptists.

Regimentation refers to enforced uniformity by governing authorities, especially based on creeds such as Marxist doctrine. In the religious world, we have "top down" organizations, such as Catholic or Calvinist, and we have "bottom up" organizations such as autonomous baptist churches.

And of course the Bible teaches it is better to be free than slave. Also, many believe freedom provides the best way forward due to the utility of individual or independent group innovation. OTOH, about 20% of people think they know best, and ought to tell everyone else what to do.

Which brings us to the two views of Christ's gospel, one being God offers the opportunity of salvation to all, and the other being God already has decided such that if you are not "in" there is no opportunity to alter your damnation. Of course the second one reflects regimentation, a relic of the dark ages.

So the issue before us, is what does the Bible actually say?

Isaiah 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me,
Because the LORD anointed me
To bring good news to the humble;
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim release to captives
And freedom to prisoners;

Romans 8:20-21
For the creation [humanity] was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope hat the creation [humanity] itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

1 Corinthians 10:29
Now by “conscience” I do not mean your own, but the other person's; for why is my freedom judged by another's conscience?

Galatians 2:4
Yet it was a concern because of the false brothers secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy on our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to enslave us.

Galatians 5:1
It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

Galatians 5:13
For you were called to freedom, brothers [siblings]; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but serve one another through love.

1 Peter 2:16
Act as free people, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bond-servants of God.

Reformed Baptist churches are autonomous too. There is no such thing as a "Reformed Baptist pope" or a Reformed Baptist bishop ruling a number of local churches in some kind of Reformed Baptist "diocese."

 

[Van]

You remain in error because your thinking is secular and not biblical.

Scripture tells us a person is a slave to sin OR a slave to God.

Scripture tells us we are slaves to who we obey.

Jesus said His “yoke” was easy… that is a yoke of slavery.

We rest in our Master, our Lord. He alone gives us peace.

As long as we focus on our “freedom”, we will never have peace.

Peace to you…. Really… peace to you

1) Note the "against the person" argumentation, the use of fallacious argumentation.

2) Scripture says it is better to be free than slave. This was not denied.

3) Where some translations use "slave" others use "bond-servant." Slave connotates involuntary servitude, bond-servant connotates voluntary servitude. The effort to deny Christ's sacrifice of His life on the cross to not provides the means to set sinners free from their slavery to sin is despicable. The effort to deny Christ's sacrifice of His life does not provide justification of life to those given to Him, setting them free from their slavery to sin is despicable.

4) If we choose to yoke ourselves to Christ and follow Him, that is not a yoke of involuntary servitude.

5) If we are "in Christ" we have been set free from our slavery to sin, and as ambassadors of Christ, our ministry is to help set others free. This "focus" on freedom, ours and others is our holy calling.

 

[Van]

Reformed Baptist churches are autonomous too. There is no such thing as a "Reformed Baptist pope" or a Reformed Baptist bishop ruling a number of local churches in some kind of Reformed Baptist "diocese."

Sir, the top down creed, TULIP, requires regimentation, enforced uniformity. I believe in "once saved, always saved" but agreeing with just one point of the TULIP, would disqualify me from teaching at a Reformed Baptist church.

I helped develop the "What we Believe" statement for our church. Not the one currently on our web site, but an earlier version, circa 1995. It did not require adherence to the TULIP, nor disavowal of the TULIP. When I taught, I did not teach the Reformed view was right or wrong, but only that scholars hold differing views. But I did teach the importance of evangelism, of helping to win souls, of laboring in the fields white for harvest, and the opportunity for salvation. I was not called to rule the beliefs of others, but to present God's truth as I understand it.

 

[canadyjd]

1) Note the "against the person" argumentation, the use of fallacious argumentation.

2) Scripture says it is better to be free than slave. This was not denied.

3) Where some translations use "slave" others use "bond-servant." Slave connotates involuntary servitude, bond-servant connotates voluntary servitude. The effort to deny Christ's sacrifice of His life on the cross to not provides the means to set sinners free from their slavery to sin is despicable. The effort to deny Christ's sacrifice of His life does not provide justification of life to those given to Him, setting them free from their slavery to sin is despicable.

4) If we choose to yoke ourselves to Christ and follow Him, that is not a yoke of involuntary servitude.

5) If we are "in Christ" we have been set free from our slavery to sin, and as ambassadors of Christ, our ministry is to help set others free. This "focus" on freedom, ours and others is our holy calling.

Please Note the “oh look at me, I’m being attacked” argumentation.

Please note yet another thread in the continuous failed effort to destroy the doctrines of grace with secular logic.

Please quote the scripture that says “it is better to be free than slave”. It just doesn’t come to mind off hand. I’m sure you will have a specific passage that says, “it is better to be free than slave” since you continue to claim that is what “scripture says”.

The word “bond-servant” was used of a slave that was freed by a master, then chose to REMAIN a slave to the master.

In case you can’t see that, the person REMAINS a slave. In our case, Jesus bought us from the old slave masters (sin and death) and becomes our new Master.

Yes, we choose to become a slave to Christ, but we REMAIN a slave. See Romans chapters 5-8.

It is better to be a slave to Christ than a slave to sin.

Your continued focus on individual freedom is secular, not biblical.

Peace to you

 

[Van]

Folks, can you believe a poster cannot find the verse that says it is better to be free than slave?

"The word “bond-servant” was used of a slave that was freed by a master, then chose to REMAIN a slave to the master." I do not know if this is true in all cases, but we have been freed by Christ, and have chosen to serve Him. Thus we are bond-servants, not involuntary slaves.

If we are "in Christ" we have been set free from our slavery to sin, and as ambassadors of Christ, our ministry is to help set others free. This "focus" on freedom, ours and others is our holy calling.

1 Corinthians 7:21 NET
Were you called as a slave? Do not worry about it. But if indeed you are able to be free, make the most of the opportunity.

1 Peter 2:16
Act as free people, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bond-servants of God.

 

[canadyjd]

Still no verse that says “it is better to be free than slave”

I’ll leave you to your obsession with destroying the doctrines of grace.

Peace to you

 

[TheOneWhoLives]

If we are "in Christ" we have been set free from our slavery to sin, and as ambassadors of Christ, our ministry is to help set others free. This "focus" on freedom, ours and others is our holy calling.

As you’ve said before, God credits our faith as righteousnessness depending on how well we act it out in our lifetimes.

So why should a person help others be set free and if they aren’t sure they have been set free?

 

[Silverhair]

I always find amazing how those of the calvinis/reformed view will argue against the freedom that is offered to all through the gospel message.

Mat_11:28 "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

 

[Van]

As you’ve said before, God credits our faith as righteousnessness depending on how well we act it out in our lifetimes.

So why should a person help others be set free and if they aren’t sure they have been set free?

This is NOT what I said or what scripture says. Please, if you have any regard for truth, stop misrepresenting what scripture says.

God crediting our faith is according to grace, not our subsequent works.

 

[TheOneWhoLives]

This is NOT what I said or what scripture says. Please, if you have any regard for truth, stop misrepresenting what scripture says.

Folks, Peter Pan here claims that I have misrepresented his view of scripture. I will provide a quote from another thread where he very clearly makes known his position and you can decide for yourself if such a charge is warranted.

And I believe the plan was to choose believers whose faith God evaluated and credited as righteousness during their lifetime.

 

[canadyjd]

I always find amazing how those of the calvinis/reformed view will argue against the freedom that is offered to all through the gospel message.

Mat_11:28 "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

I don’t find it amazing that some cannot comprehend the plain words of scripture since they embrace secular philosophy.

Matthew 11:28 does not say the gospel is offered to “all”, but rather “all who are weary and heavy laden”. Additionally, they refuse to see the very next verse who Christ offers a “yoke”. That is a yoke of slavery.

If you look at the words of Christ in Matthew 5, you see Jesus saying they are blessed who mourn, who hunger and thirst for righteousness, who are persecuted for His sake, who are poor in spirit, who are merciful…

These are the ones who are weary and heavy laden. They are convicted of the unrighteousness in the world, of the sin, of the wickedness and they are persecuted for the name of Christ.

They receive rest in Christ.

Again, the offer is to all who are weary and heavy laden…. Not to all.

Peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

I don’t find it amazing that some cannot comprehend the plain words of scripture since they embrace secular philosophy.

Matthew 11:28 does not say the gospel is offered to “all”, but rather “all who are weary and heavy laden”. Additionally, they refuse to see the very next verse who Christ offers a “yoke”. That is a yoke of slavery.

If you look at the words of Christ in Matthew 5, you see Jesus saying they are blessed who mourn, who hunger and thirst for righteousness, who are persecuted for His sake, who are poor in spirit, who are merciful…

These are the ones who are weary and heavy laden. They are convicted of the unrighteousness in the world, of the sin, of the wickedness and they are persecuted for the name of Christ.

They receive rest in Christ.

Again, the offer is to all who are weary and heavy laden…. Not to all.

Peace to you

Do you think that only a limited few labor and are heavy laden? But then again you think God only wants to save some special picked out ones.

Amazing how you can quote that and see what it says but you fail to understand other clear scripture that shows the error of your philosophy.

Joh 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1Jn_2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

So it would seem that God actually wants all those that labor and are heavy laden to come to Him.

Sorry @canadyjd your theology comes up short once again.

 

[David Lamb]

Do you think that only a limited few labor and are heavy laden? But then again you think God only wants to save some special picked out ones.

Amazing how you can quote that and see what it says but you fail to understand other clear scripture that shows the error of your philosophy.

Joh 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1Jn_2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

So it would seem that God actually wants all those that labor and are heavy laden to come to Him.

Sorry @canadyjd your theology comes up short once again.

I have just re-read Candyjd's post, and I see no mention at all of a "limited few." That post was saying the same as you did in this sentence: "So it would seem that God actually wants all those that labor and are heavy laden to come to Him." Or as Candyjd put it: "Again, the offer is to all who are weary and heavy laden."

 

[kyredneck]

I see no mention at all of a "limited few."

@Silverhair is routinely, subtly. dishonest in this manner.

 

[Silverhair]

I have just re-read Candyjd's post, and I see no mention at all of a "limited few." That post was saying the same as you did in this sentence: "So it would seem that God actually wants all those that labor and are heavy laden to come to Him." Or as Candyjd put it: "Again, the offer is to all who are weary and heavy laden."

Did you not see these words

"Again, the offer is to all who are weary and heavy laden…. Not to all."
So @canadyjd is limiting who are to be considered as "weary and heavy laden" that is your limited few.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair is routinely, subtly. dishonest in this manner.

And you just continue to prove you do not read.

Did you not see these words
"Again, the offer is to all who are weary and heavy laden…. Not to all."
So @canadyjd is limiting who are to be considered as "weary and heavy laden" that is your limited few.

 

[Van]

Folks, Peter Pan here claims that I have misrepresented his view of scripture. I will provide a quote from another thread where he very clearly makes known his position and you can decide for yourself if such a charge is warranted.

LOL, the "during their lifetime" refers to when God credited their faith, rather than before their creation. It does not mean God looked into the future and determined who to choose. But in fairness, I can see how a person with presumptions concerning election, might misread my statement.

But to clarify, God's redemption plan, formulated before creation, was to choose (elect) believers, those who came to their faith during their lifetime, and God crediting that faith, not based on their subsequent foreseen works, but simply on God's knowledge of their faith in and commitment to Christ.

God crediting our faith is according to grace, not our subsequent works.

 

[canadyjd]

Did you not see these words

"Again, the offer is to all who are weary and heavy laden…. Not to all."
So @canadyjd is limiting who are to be considered as "weary and heavy laden" that is your limited few.

Jesus limited the offer to all that are weary and heavy laden. I only repeated what Jesus said @Silverhair

I know you don’t understand, or if you do, you cannot accept it as truth.

No further need to engage in this

Peace to you