Remedy Before Sentence!

[BrotherJoseph]

What has happened in this Calvinism verses Arminianism debate is two extreme conclusions, and unbiblical ones both, are created.

Calvinism goes to the extreme of God's will is void of God allowing His creation to exercise a God given free will.

Arminianism goes to the extreme of God's will is void of God limiting His creation to exercise a God given free will.

The truth is found when both God's will and man's given free will is allowed to work as properly described in the Scriptures.

Calvinism's conclusions are wrong, as is Arminianism's conclusions are wrong.

Found within God's will is the freedom for mankind to exercise a will of their own. Both exist, but ultimately God's will is accomplished in every free will decision that is made and will be made.

Brother Steaver,

Adam’s disobedience was not the result of a choice between obedience and disobedience for without the knowledge of good and evil because he had not yet eaten of the fruit of that tree, therefore he could not have a reference point to discern what was obedient and what was disobedient.

Regarding it be God's will that sin exists we both agree. We read, "for sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4), thus without God creating the law of not eating the fruit, there would have been no sin.

The state a born again child is in now is a much better state than even Adam's state prior to the fall. Firstly, we experience God's grace. This is unmerited favor and could only exist toward sinners. As we read, "where sin abounded, grace did much more abound' (Romans 5:20). Also, the born again children experience God's mercy. Webster defines mercy as, " compassion or forbearance shown especially to an offender ", thus also only sinners could experience this. Finally Jesus said, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13). A child of God could not have experienced this greatest of love (the atonement) if sin never came into existence. Therefore it was not evil for God to will that sin come into existence because his intent on doing this was so his children could experience his attributes of grace, mercy, the greatest of love, and redemption. All of these things Adam before the fall could not experience.

Many people charge or believe those believing in the predestination of all things believe or make God the author of sin, but this is false. We do not believe God works sin into a person' s heart, rather that is already there as a result of the fall. As we can see with Adam, God willing sin into existence was not evil, because he used a secondary cause (Satan, Eve, and Adam) to pick the fruit thus yielding sin into mankind. God is the first cause of all causes, and nothing exists without a cause, but God uses secondary causes in relation to sin. Also, he willed sin into existence for a good motive-to show his attributes of love, grace, redemption, and mercy to his elect. The crucifixion of Christ is also undeniable proof that God can predestine (or if you want to use the word predetermine) a sinful even without being the author of sin. This was the most wicked act, but God used the Pharisees, Judas, etc to carry out the wicked deed. He didn't have to work evil in their hearts because it was already there. We read, "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain" (Acts 2:23) However, we also read, "it pleased the Lord to bruise him"Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin", thus God did it for a good purpose, to make Jesus an offering for sin, but the jews crucified him for an evil purpose by what is said in Acts to be "wicked hands" and those such as Judas who did so paid the penalty for their sin. God did not excuse their wicked actions. God is so awesome that he tells us "28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." (Romans 8:28). This is my favorite scripture and it is seen clearly in the fall of Adam and the crucifixion of Christ.


God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Setting speculation aside, if it was God's will that Adam should never sin, then you would have to conclude that Adam's will trumped God's will.

Brother Steaver,

You are correct. I know God's will cannot trump man's will because God says He, "worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Ephesians 1:11), not some things.

However, if I am incorrect please let me know, but I thought from other posts of yours in the Cal/Armin forum on different threads you believe mankind by there own free will can become saved. Now God has expressly said, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). In order to be consistent with Ephesians 1:11 I interpret the, "not willing that any should perish" to mean any of the elect, however if you interpret it to mean all men (if you do not please let me know), then how do you reconcile this idea with some perishing thus man's will trumping God's will in this very important eternal issue?

God bless,

Brother Joe

(I will not be back on the Board until Tuesday, Lord willing).

 

[steaver]

Before the fall he certainly didn't because, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1). One cannot lose their salvation, and thus if Adam was "in Christ" there could be "no condemnation", but when he fell we read, " by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation" (Romans 5:18), thus Adam couldn't have had Christ in him prior to the fall, otherwise there would be condemnation for those "in Christ".

Brother Joe

Read carefully though what you just wrote. The condemnation did not come until AFTER Adam sinned, thus, Adam had NO condemnation prior to his sinning. If you wish to apply Ro 8:1 to Adam, then you will have to apply it even before the fall, and you will have to conclude that Adam was indeed in Christ Jesus before he sinned. I agree one cannot lose their salvation once regenerated, but Adam, and only Adam with Eve, was created having no need of regeneration/salvation until AFTER they fell into sin.

I like you do not believe Adam was created a sinner, he was created "good" but so were the plants and trees , etc that God said they were "good" (Genesis 1:10-11), but that is not the same as being "holy". A tree or plant can be "good", but not "holy". According to Strong's Concordance dictionary the Hebrew word "towb" there in Genesis rendered "good" in the King James simply means "beautiful" http://biblehub.com/hebrew/2896.htm

Brother Steaver, do you believe Adam was holy prior to the fall and thus when one becomes born again and is later glorified they simply revert to Adam's original state before the fall or do you believe his children get more than this when they are "in Christ"?

I believe Adam would be considered holy before the fall according to the bible's uses of the word "holy".....

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H6918&t=KJV

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G40&t=KJV

As to the second part of your question; I believe the child of God gets so much more than just being reverted back to a holy state as Adam before the fall. And this is God's perfect plan, to have his creation know good and evil, and to have His creation freely choose whom they will serve and love.

 

[steaver]

Brother Steaver,

Adam’s disobedience was not the result of a choice between obedience and disobedience for without the knowledge of good and evil because he had not yet eaten of the fruit of that tree, therefore he could not have a reference point to discern what was obedient and what was disobedient.

Regarding it be God's will that sin exists we both agree. We read, "for sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4), thus without God creating the law of not eating the fruit, there would have been no sin.



God bless,

Brother Joe

You are concluding that Adam had no idea what God was telling him to do and not do. Adam had no knowledge of good and evil, but surely he knew what it meant to not eat something. A little child does not need to understand good and evil to obey their parent when their daddy says do not eat these poison berries, they can either trust and obey or suffer the consequences.

The state a born again child is in now is a much better state than even Adam's state prior to the fall. Firstly, we experience God's grace. This is unmerited favor and could only exist toward sinners. As we read, "where sin abounded, grace did much more abound' (Romans 5:20). Also, the born again children experience God's mercy. Webster defines mercy as, " compassion or forbearance shown especially to an offender ", thus also only sinners could experience this. Finally Jesus said, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13). A child of God could not have experienced this greatest of love (the atonement) if sin never came into existence. Therefore it was not evil for God to will that sin come into existence because his intent on doing this was so his children could experience his attributes of grace, mercy, the greatest of love, and redemption. All of these things Adam before the fall could not experience.

Many people charge or believe those believing in the predestination of all things believe or make God the author of sin, but this is false. We do not believe God works sin into a person' s heart, rather that is already there as a result of the fall. As we can see with Adam, God willing sin into existence was not evil, because he used a secondary cause (Satan, Eve, and Adam) to pick the fruit thus yielding sin into mankind. God is the first cause of all causes, and nothing exists without a cause, but God uses secondary causes in relation to sin. Also, he willed sin into existence for a good motive-to show his attributes of love, grace, redemption, and mercy to his elect. The crucifixion of Christ is also undeniable proof that God can predestine (or if you want to use the word predetermine) a sinful even without being the author of sin. This was the most wicked act, but God used the Pharisees, Judas, etc to carry out the wicked deed. He didn't have to work evil in their hearts because it was already there. We read, "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain" (Acts 2:23) However, we also read, "it pleased the Lord to bruise him"Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin", thus God did it for a good purpose, to make Jesus an offering for sin, but the jews crucified him for an evil purpose by what is said in Acts to be "wicked hands" and those such as Judas who did so paid the penalty for their sin. God did not excuse their wicked actions. God is so awesome that he tells us "28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." (Romans 8:28). This is my favorite scripture and it is seen clearly in the fall of Adam and the crucifixion of Christ.

Amen! Good stuff :thumbsup:

 

[steaver]

Brother Steaver,

You are correct. I know God's will cannot trump man's will because God says He, "worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Ephesians 1:11), not some things.

However, if I am incorrect please let me know, but I thought from other posts of yours in the Cal/Armin forum on different threads you believe mankind by there own free will can become saved. Now God has expressly said, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). In order to be consistent with Ephesians 1:11 I interpret the, "not willing that any should perish" to mean any of the elect, however if you interpret it to mean all men (if you do not please let me know), then how do you reconcile this idea with some perishing thus man's will trumping God's will in this very important eternal issue?

God bless,

Brother Joe

(I will not be back on the Board until Tuesday, Lord willing).

Here is were people get hung up on the if God wills it thing. We have to accept the fact, even if we cannot fully comprehend it, that within God's will God has given His creation their own will and freedom to exercise said will.

Look at this passage were Jesus pleads His will out to a disobedient "chosen" nation...

Matt 23:37 - "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

Now let's ask ourselves; Is it God's will to gather in these disobedient chosen ones? And what is the will of these disobedient ones? Does this mean their will is more powerful than God's will? Of course not! This shows that God's will is always good, wanting good for His creation, and that man has been given a will also, which God has decreed that it shall not be denied even as it goes against His own good will.

We need to understand that it is not a battle between the wills. God's will has allowed for His creation's will to be exercised freely.