Remember Kim Davis

[Salty]

Remember Kim? She was the county clerk that would not issue a marriage licence
to a hom0se/al couple.
And she ended up in jail - so we called that persecution against Christians.


So lest SUPPOSE - you walk into a town clerks office -
and the Town Clerk was a Muslim - and she would* not issue you (a female) a marriage license
until:

A) you covered her face.
B) she told you come back tomorrow so her assistant would issue the certificate
C) She recommended you go to a nearby town to get your license.

Or would you storm out looking for the nearest lawyer to sue the Town?

 

[Salty]

1st Peter 16 “Yet if any man suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
17) For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begins at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18) And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19) Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.”

Can persecution come to America? Its beginnings are already here if you look around you. We see where anything that speaks of God or His Holy Word, brings condemnation from a dying, rebellious world. The news is full of the report of one courageous woman in Kentucky, who would not bow to judicial pressure to issue same-sex marriage licenses to (hom0se/ual) couples.

 

[KenH]

Can persecution come to America?

Anyone who proclaims the Biblical truth - about God as absolutely sovereign, that man is born spiritually dead and totally helpless to remedy his state, that salvation is totally by God's sovereign grace and mercy, that man can contribute nothing at all to his salvation, that only the elect are chosen and loved by God, that the sins of only the elect were imputed to Christ, that the righteousness of Christ was imputed only to the elect - already knows what it is like to be castigated by reprobates and even by those who call themselves "Christians".

I think what you are really asking is if persecution will extend beyond the elect of God to those who are part of the various man-based, works-based, watered-down, or culturally-based "Christianity" that many Americans align themselves with. I think the answer is maybe, except the persecution of those folks by the world is not really persecuting the elect of God. The elect have been and always will be castigated and persecuted by the world and "Christians-In-Name-Only".

 

[JonC]

Here's another question - if the Muslim clerk refused to issue a license for SSM and was fired would it be persecution?

 

[KenH]

Here's another question - if the Muslim clerk refused to issue a license for SSM and was fired would it be persecution?

It could be called religious persecution but not persecution toward the elect of God.

 

[JonC]

It could be called religious persecution but not persecution toward the elect of God.

It could. Or it could be called an inability to perform one's job due to religious convictions.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Remember Kim? She was the county clerk that would not issue a marriage licence
to a hom0se/al couple.
And she ended up in jail - so we called that persecution against Christians.

Not all of us did.

Kim Davis was there to ensure that couples met the standards of the law as a literal agent of the government, not her personal standards as an individual. If her conscience would not allow her to perform her duties under the law (an understandable position), she should have resigned. Instead, she tried to use her position to impose her religious opinion on others as an agent of the government. Baptists should uniformly condemn that because of our historical demand for religious liberty for all.

So lest SUPPOSE - you walk into a town clerks office -
and the Town Clerk was a Muslim - and she would* not issue you (a female) a marriage license
until:

A) you covered her face.
B) she told you come back tomorrow so her assistant would issue the certificate
C) She recommended you go to a nearby town to get your license.

Or would you storm out looking for the nearest lawyer to sue the Town?

“Storm out?” No. I would explain the Constitution and the First Amendment, working my way up the chain of command until the situation changed. If the leadership of the County would not abide by the Constitution, I would file a lawsuit (including the cost of my legal fees) to resolve the situation in the courts.

…1st Peter 17) For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begins at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Absolutely. God is judging the “Evangelicals” of the United States for their willingness to shame the name of Christ through the blatant hypocrisies of seeking after power in the earthly realm to enforce their own sense of propriety, while rejecting the teachings of Jesus. For those of us who evangelize others as a matter of lifestyle, we have to spend a lot of time distinguishing the teachings of Jesus from the practice of the popular “Evangelical” churches, which is often Trumpism.

Can persecution come to America? Its beginnings are already here if you look around you.

Yes. Some Trump followers who claim to be Christians attack, malign and chase out disciples of Jesus who do not bow the knee to Trump.

We see where anything that speaks of God or His Holy Word, brings condemnation from a dying, rebellious world.

I don’t see that as a rule. Much of the negative reactions come from those who can only see Christ through the lens of the culture warriors. In my own evangelism, I have found that people are hungrier than ever for the gospel, since there is a famine of it in the popular culture. They are attracted by a gospel that is focused on the teachings of Jesus that bring personal transformation, power, and practical holiness into one’s life. They are attracted by the fruit of the Spirit and a generous heart. They are attracted by an approach to relationships that is non-transactional and allows people to become the kind of person God intended them to be. They are attracted to a faith that serves others and presses for justice for those who are needy and oppressed. They are attached to a gospel that recognizes that what we do in this world from day-to-day has ramifications for our future, not a gospel of sin management that ignores everything between conversion and death. They are attracted to a faith that recognizes that the material realm is off God and must be managed well as stewards of God’s world (a theme founded in Genesis and reaffirmed in Revelation). They are attracted to a faith where resurrection of our bodies is real, and a life in relationship with each other and with God on earth is our destiny.

I have found that persecution from “the world” is quite minimal, while persecution from some of those who presume to be in “the church” is worse than ever.

The news is full of the report of one courageous woman in Kentucky, who would not bow to judicial pressure to issue same-sex marriage licenses to (hom0se/ual) couples.

She may be courageous, but she is woefully and shamefully wrong. She has likely been misled by spiritual leaders and should be supported as someone who has been misled, but not as a heroine of the faith. She should have resigned.

 

[Salty]

Interesting points so far -
BUT - for those who did support Kim Davis - by not issuing the certificate -
would they give the same privilege to a Muslim - ie a female applicant not wearing a burka?

Now back to Kim - the big issue she had was that her personal name was on the certificate -The Commonwealth then passed a law directing that the county clerks name not be on the certificate. In fact, even the ACLU agreed to drop charges when that change was made.

However, isnt an employer required to make REASONABLE accomadations for religious objections? And since the asst clerk was willing to do so - that should take care of it.
Kim Davis Asks Court to Dismiss Marriage License Appeal

One other thing - that I dont recall - how far away did the applicants live? IF they travled 50-60 miles - that is one thing - if they lived locally - thats something else.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Now back to Kim - the big issue she had was that her personal name was on the certificate -The Commonwealth then passed a law directing that the county clerks name not be on the certificate. In fact, even the ACLU agreed to drop charges when that change was made.

Quick note, the ACLU did not press “charges,” they filed a lawsuit. The ACLU does not have law enforcement authority.

However, isnt an employer required to make REASONABLE accomadations for religious objections?

The article you cited made the point that she eventually received religious accommodation by having her name removed from the certificates. That’s a reasonable long-term solution.

One other thing - that I dont recall - how far away did the applicants live? IF they travled 50-60 miles - that is one thing - if they lived locally - thats something else.

It doesn’t really matter in my opinion. For instance, the county where I grew up, Jefferson County (Texas), is quite large compared to many other counties in Texas. However there is a lot of salt marsh and waterways dividing up the county, so driving from one side to the other can mean driving 60-70 miles, easily. Most counties try to centrally locate the county seat for that reason, but it doesn’t always work that way.

Moreover, the merits of the case have nothing to do with the distance the applicants have to travel.

 

[canadyjd]

Remember Kim? She was the county clerk that would not issue a marriage licence
to a hom0se/al couple.
And she ended up in jail - so we called that persecution against Christians.


So lest SUPPOSE - you walk into a town clerks office -
and the Town Clerk was a Muslim - and she would* not issue you (a female) a marriage license
until:

A) you covered her face.
B) she told you come back tomorrow so her assistant would issue the certificate
C) She recommended you go to a nearby town to get your license.

Or would you storm out looking for the nearest lawyer to sue the Town?

She is imposing Sharia (?) Law on the person. So, yes, time for a legal challenge.

peace to you

 

[Salty]

Baptist Beleiver - the point I was trying to make - is did the applicants puropsely drive excessive miles just so they could file a lawsuit?
Or was that office their "local office"

I was looking for motive.

 

[Salty]

She is imposing Sharia (?) Law on the person. So, yes, time for a legal challenge. ...

I understand that we are to follow the law -

But suppose the Commonwealth of KY passed a law that a 10 year old could get married - without parents permission
And she was brought to the town hall by her 45 year old fiance -
Would you try to find a way not to give them a marriage licence.???

.
.
.
.
.

.and no - telling them they need a learners permit first is not acceptable

 

[canadyjd]

I understand that we are to follow the law -

But suppose the Commonwealth of KY passed a law that a 10 year old could get married - without parents permission
And she was brought to the town hall by her 45 year old fiance -
Would you try to find a way not to give them a marriage licence.???

.
.
.
.
.

.and no - telling them they need a learners permit first is not acceptable

I know you are giving an extreme example so I’ll just state the obvious, I’d call the law.

I know some states allow those under 18 to be married with parents permission. I doubt any go as young as ten.

Bottom line, I’d get another job is my conscience couldn’t bare it.

peace to you

 

[777]

Baptist Beleiver - the point I was trying to make - is did the applicants puropsely drive excessive miles just so they could file a lawsuit?
Or was that office their "local office"

I was looking for motive.

well, I don't know that much about Kentucky, but I think the gay dude that ran for Kim's old office lost his primary, but the opponent went off to unseat Kim after she switched parties.

https://scholarworks.moreheadstate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1066&context=ky_marriage_media

sounds like he was a resident of the county at the time, Kim should have just resigned when SCCOTUS approved these marriages. It was her job to issue the licenses, not her job to approve or disapprove of any marriage.

 

[Baptist Believer]

I was looking for motive.

The motives of the person(s) harmed should be irrelevant when someone is violating the law as a representative of the government.

 

[Salty]

The motives of the person(s) harmed should be irrelevant when someone is violating the law as a representative of the government.

So you would have no problem with a 45 year old man who wanted to marry a 10 year old - if it was legal?

 

[Reformed1689]

Kim Davis was there to ensure that couples met the standards of the law as a literal agent of the government, not her personal standards as an individual. If her conscience would not allow her to perform her duties under the law (an understandable position), she should have resigned. Instead, she tried to use her position to impose her religious opinion on others as an agent of the government. Baptists should uniformly condemn that because of our historical demand for religious liberty for all.

Of course you would defend the outrageous government overreach and redefinition of marriage.

She did NOT impose her opinion on others. She simply said she would not sign it but one of her clerks would. Why was that an issue? It should not have been an issue. This was the LGBT war machine. They sought this out. They did not have to make a scene and they did. It is people like you who LET THEM DO THIS that keep our country going down down DOWN the toilet.

 

[Salty]

Of course you would defend the outrageous government overreach and redefinition of marriage.

She did NOT impose her opinion on others. She simply said she would not sign it but one of her clerks would. Why was that an issue? It should not have been an issue. This was the LGBT war machine. They sought this out. They did not have to make a scene and they did. It is people like you who LET THEM DO THIS that keep our country going down down DOWN the toilet.

Same thing with the cake baker

 

[canadyjd]

Same thing with the cake baker

Yes, they did seek out the Christian businesses to initiate the lawsuit.

peace to you

 

[Baptist Believer]

So you would have no problem with a 45 year old man who wanted to marry a 10 year old - if it was legal?

No, not at all. I’m not sure why you jumped to that conclusion.

if I were a County Clerk and the laws changed to allow something like that, I would resign the position in a very public way (get media exposure) and fight to change the law as a private citizen.