Remembering Carla Faye Tucker and the Death Penalty

[canadyjd]

For most of my adult life, I was a strong supporter of the death penalty. That changed in the year 2000, and the execution of Carla Faye Tucker in Texas.

A crack addicted prostitute, Tucker murdered an elderly couple with an axe pick, bragged about and was sentenced to death, and rightfully so.

The execution came in 2000, during the presidential election. Pat Robertson urged then Governor Bush to commute the sentence because, as Robertson stated, he believed she had a genuine conversation to Christianity.

I was stunned. Surely, that cannot be the standard to oppose the death penalty, that Pat Robertson had determined someone had a genuine conversion to Christianity? Many death roll inmates have conversions, why Tucker?

She was a pretty white woman, with a nice voice, singing hymns and a strong prison ministry. She said all the “right” things. She knew she was guilty, didn’t want to die, but was eager to be with her Lord Jesus should the state carry out the execution.

I began to study what scripture says about supporting the death penalty and came to the conclusion that the State does have the power of the sword and can implement the death penalty AND that Christians should have no part in supporting that action.

I am happy to have a civil discussion with individuals that are interested in what I found.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Genesis 9 is often used to claim God implemented the death penalty as the penalty for murder.

It states that if a man sheds blood, by man his blood shall be shed.

This is not reference to a state execution since there where no governments at that time, only Noah, his sons and wives.

Genesis 9 is a reference to the ancient near east custom of the “blood avenger”. If you caused someone’s death, by accident or on purpose, a blood relative could kill you in revenge.

There were “cities of refuge” where a person could be spared as long as they remained inside.

So, Genesis 9 does not support a state sponsored death penalty

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

A close look at scripture shows God did not impose a death penalty until He gave the Law. Even then, the death penalty was not absolute.

Prior to the flood (Genesis 9) Caan killed his brother and God did not demand the death penalty. He showed mercy instead.

After the flood, before the law, Moses murdered the Egyptian. God did not demand the death penalty.

After the Law, before Jesus,, David murdered Uriah the Hittite to cover his sin with Bathsheba. God did not demand the death penalty, though his son died as a consequence.

After Jesus came, Paul murdered Christians and God showed mercy (more about Paul later.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

When Jesus was presented with the woman caught in adultery, he was asked to implement the OT Law, which was the death penalty. The OT Law required the testimony of two or three witnesses in such cases, which they had. The witnesses would throw the first stones and the blood was on their hands. If the testimony was false, they were guilty of murder.

Had Jesus kept the OT Law, He would have demanded the man also be brought forth and both stoned to death.

Instead, He changed the conditions for implementing the death penalty. Instead of “two or three witnesses” throwing the first stones, the standard is now “the one without sin” would cast the first stone. Only God is without sin.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

The passage of scripture that changed forever my understanding of the death penalty is in 1 Timothy 1.

As mentioned, the Apostle Paul murdered Christians. Paul states that God demonstrated mercy toward him, the worst of all sinners, as an example that future Christians should follow.

This is a definitive statement. Christians cannot support the death penalty and show mercy at the same time. They are in conflict.

Since God has given the power of the sword (Romans 13) to governments, my position must be to acknowledge that truth while embracing the truth that Christians should take no part in that action.

Peace to you

 

[Scarlett O.]

I remember that quite well. Televised interviews with her were very fascinating to me. I remember lots of Christians believing that the death penalty should be taken off the table BECAUSE she was "saved". I listened to her and everything about her, and I believe she was legitimately born again sometime after her disgusting crime.

That, in my stubborn opinion, did not dismiss the need for justice. It did not negate her murderous actions. Jesus saves. God forgives and puts our sin as far as the east is from the west, but those two divine things do not take away justice. We reap what we sow.

I am a believer in the death penalty in some cases, but I have problems executing people who are hellbound. In Karla Faye Tucker's case I did not struggle with the execution. Neither did it make me happy. It just was what it was.

I remember listening to her say she accepted her punishment. If she, as a newly born again woman accepted it, I accepted it.

 

[canadyjd]

I remember that quite well. Televised interviews with her were very fascinating to me. I remember lots of Christians believing that the death penalty should be taken off the table BECAUSE she was "saved". I listened to her and everything about her, and I believe she was legitimately born again sometime after her disgusting crime.

That, in my stubborn opinion, did not dismiss the need for justice. It did not negate her murderous actions. Jesus saves. God forgives and puts our sin as far as the east is from the west, but those two divine things do not take away justice. We reap what we sow.

I am a believer in the death penalty in some cases, but I have problems executing people who are hellbound. In Karla Faye Tucker's case I did not struggle with the execution. Neither did it make me happy. It just was what it was.

I remember listening to her say she accepted her punishment. If she, as a newly born again woman accepted it, I accepted it.

That was my response as well.

I did, however, feel compelled to explore why I would accept the execution of a Christian. It led me to an exploration of scripture, which I documented above, and ultimately coming to the conclusion I must change my opinion to conform to 1 Timothy 1:15.

To be certain, the state had a responsibility and authority to execute Ms Tucker for her crimes. I don’t believe Christians should take part in executing people.

Thanks for the comment.

Peace to you

 

[Ascetic X]

To be certain, the state had a responsibility and authority to execute Ms Tucker for her crimes. I don’t believe Christians should take part in executing people.

Then, by that reasoning, Christians should also not join the military or take part in killing enemy combatants in warfare…. and Christians should not serve as security or police, who may have to kill a criminal.

 

[canadyjd]

Then, by that reasoning, Christians should also not join the military or take part in killing enemy combatants in warfare…. and Christians should not serve as security or police, who may have to kill a criminal.

That has been an ongoing debate in the Christian community since the first century.

Many believe the teachings of our Lord Jesus require pacifism.

There was a movie a few years ago about Desmond Doss. He was a congressional Medal of Honor winner while serving as a combat medic in WW2. He refused to kill, or even carry a weapon, yet he still served honorably.

Peace to you

 

[Ascetic X]

That has been an ongoing debate in the Christian community since the first century.

Many believe the teachings of our Lord Jesus require pacifism.

There was a movie a few years ago about Desmond Doss. He was a congressional Medal of Honor winner while serving as a combat medic in WW2. He refused to kill, or even carry a weapon, yet he still served honorably.

Peace to you

As I understand it, first century Christians refused to serve in the military or police forces.

Desmond Doss sounds like a wonderful person. But some Christian pacifists would disapprove, saying he provided medical aid so wounded soldiers could continue killing.

 

[canadyjd]

As I understand it, first century Christians refused to serve in the military or police forces.

Desmond Doss sounds like a wonderful person. But some Christian pacifists would disapprove, saying he provided medical aid so wounded soldiers could continue killing.

I suppose that’s possible. Let everyone be bound by their own conscience.

I would prefer the conversation remain focused on support (or not) for the death penalty specifically and not pacifism.

Thanks for the comments

Peace to you

 

[Ascetic X]

Israel was commanded to engage in enforcing a theocratic state sponsored death penalty.

God ordered death for the following sins and people.

1. Murder (Ex 21:12,14)(Lev 24:17,21)(Num 35:16-21,30-31)
2. Kidnapping (Ex 21:16)(Deut 24:7)
3. Child sacrifice (Lev 20:2)
4. Both the man and woman who commit adultery (Lev 20:10)(Deut 22:22-24)
5. Rape (Deut 22:25)
6. Daughter of a priest who became a prostitute (Lev 21:9)
7. An idolater (Ex 22:20)(Deut 17:2-5)(Num 25:1-5)
8. Breaking the Sabbath (Ex 31:14)(Ex 35:2)(Num 15:32-36)
9. A woman having sex before marriage (Deut 22:21-22)
10. Homosexuality (Lev 20:13)
11. A man and his father’s wife who have sex (Lev 20:11)
12. A man and daughter-in-law who have sex (Lev 20:12)
13. A man who marries a woman and her mother (all 3 must die) (Lev 20:14)
14. Bestiality (Sex with an animal) (Ex 22:19)(Lev 20:15-16)
15. A false prophet (Deut 13:5)(Deut 18:20)
16. A false witness (Deut 19:16-21)
17. A disobedient son (Deut 21:18-21)
18. A child who strikes his father or mother (Ex 21:15)
19. A child who curses his father or mother (Ex 21:17)(Lev 20:9)
20. Men who are fighting and hit a pregnant woman, causing her lose her baby (Ex 21:22-25) ***Note: A good verse to use against those who are pro-abortion
21. A man whose ox kills someone after previously goring other people (Ex 21:28-29)
22. A sorceress (Ex 22:18)
23. A medium or spiritist (Lev 20:27)
24. A brother, son, daughter, wife, or friend who entices you to go after other gods (Deut 13:6-11)
25. Everyone in any town that entices people to go after other gods (Deut 13:12-15)
26. A blasphemer (Lev 24:10-16,23)
27. Anyone who failed to abide by a decision of the court (Deut 17:8-12)
28. Any non-Levite who tried to set up or take down the Tabernacle (Num 1:51)

 

[canadyjd]

Israel was commanded to engage in enforcing a theocratic state sponsored death penalty.

God ordered death for the following sins and people.

1. Murder (Ex 21:12,14)(Lev 24:17,21)(Num 35:16-21,30-31)
2. Kidnapping (Ex 21:16)(Deut 24:7)
3. Child sacrifice (Lev 20:2)
4. Both the man and woman who commit adultery (Lev 20:10)(Deut 22:22-24)
5. Rape (Deut 22:25)
6. Daughter of a priest who became a prostitute (Lev 21:9)
7. An idolater (Ex 22:20)(Deut 17:2-5)(Num 25:1-5)
8. Breaking the Sabbath (Ex 31:14)(Ex 35:2)(Num 15:32-36)
9. A woman having sex before marriage (Deut 22:21-22)
10. Homosexuality (Lev 20:13)
11. A man and his father’s wife who have sex (Lev 20:11)
12. A man and daughter-in-law who have sex (Lev 20:12)
13. A man who marries a woman and her mother (all 3 must die) (Lev 20:14)
14. Bestiality (Sex with an animal) (Ex 22:19)(Lev 20:15-16)
15. A false prophet (Deut 13:5)(Deut 18:20)
16. A false witness (Deut 19:16-21)
17. A disobedient son (Deut 21:18-21)
18. A child who strikes his father or mother (Ex 21:15)
19. A child who curses his father or mother (Ex 21:17)(Lev 20:9)
20. Men who are fighting and hit a pregnant woman, causing her lose her baby (Ex 21:22-25) ***Note: A good verse to use against those who are pro-abortion
21. A man whose ox kills someone after previously goring other people (Ex 21:28-29)
22. A sorceress (Ex 22:18)
23. A medium or spiritist (Lev 20:27)
24. A brother, son, daughter, wife, or friend who entices you to go after other gods (Deut 13:6-11)
25. Everyone in any town that entices people to go after other gods (Deut 13:12-15)
26. A blasphemer (Lev 24:10-16,23)
27. Anyone who failed to abide by a decision of the court (Deut 17:8-12)
28. Any non-Levite who tried to set up or take down the Tabernacle (Num 1:51)

Right. We aren’t Israel.

We are commanded to show mercy, just as God demonstrated mercy to Paul as an example for future Christians to follow.

Paul was a murderer and the worst of all sinners by his own admission.

1 Timothy 1:15

Peace to you

 

[Ascetic X]

Right. We aren’t Israel.

We are commanded to show mercy, just as God demonstrated mercy to Paul as an example for future Christians to follow.

Paul was a murderer and the worst of all sinners by his own admission.

1 Timothy 1:15

Peace to you

But showing mercy does not mean letting criminals go unpunished. You have cherry picked the exceptions to the rule of the death penalty.

We have more than just mercy to Paul as an example for future Christians to follow.

God did not show mercy to Ananias and Saphira. He killed them for lying to the apostles about money. Acts 5:1-11

Nadab and Abihu received the death penalty (Leviticus 10).

Many individuals were put to death in the Old Testament.

In fact, God almost killed Moses for not circumscribing his son.

In Exodus 4:24-26, God sought to kill Moses at a lodging place while he was returning to Egypt. The incident occurred because Moses had failed to circumcise his son, neglecting the covenant of circumcision required for the leader of the Israelites. Moses' wife, Zipporah, saved his life by circumcising their son, allowing Moses to proceed.

God put Onan to death for wicked behavior (Genesis 38:10).

God commands the destruction of the city of Jericho (Joshua 6:21).

God commands the destruction of the people of Amalek - including men, women, child, infant and animals (1 Samuel 15:3).

In the power of God's Spirit, Solomon killed 30 men (Judges 14:19).

1 Chronicles 21:14: A plague sent by God killed 70,000 men.

Ecclesiastes 8:11

Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

 

[canadyjd]

But showing mercy does not mean letting criminals go unpunished. You have cherry picked the exceptions to the rule of the death penalty.

I’ve never said criminals should go unpunished.

We have more than just mercy to Paul as an example for future Christians to follow.

Yes we do.

God did not show mercy to Ananias and Saphira. He killed them for lying to the apostles about money. Acts 5:1-11

Right. God killed them, Christians did not. God is the only one without sin that can administer the death penalty righteously.

Nadab and Abihu received the death penalty (Leviticus 10).

Right.

Many individuals were put to death in the Old Testament.

In fact, God almost killed Moses for not circumscribing his son.

Right

In Exodus 4:24-26, God sought to kill Moses at a lodging place while he was returning to Egypt. The incident occurred because Moses had failed to circumcise his son, neglecting the covenant of circumcision required for the leader of the Israelites. Moses' wife, Zipporah, saved his life by circumcising their son, allowing Moses to proceed.

God put Onan to death for wicked behavior (Genesis 38:10).

Correct

God commands the destruction of the city of Jericho (Joshua 6:21).

Yes He did

God commands the destruction of the people of Amalek - including men, women, child, infant and animals (1 Samuel 15:3).

Yes He did

In the power of God's Spirit, Solomon killed 30 men (Judges 14:19).

1 Chronicles 21:14: A plague sent by God killed 70,000 men.

Ecclesiastes 8:11

Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

None of that negates the command from God for Christians to show mercy, just as He demonstrated mercy toward the worst of sinners, Paul, as an example Christians should follow.

We cannot show mercy and support the killing of someone.

Peace to you

 

[JonC]

For most of my adult life, I was a strong supporter of the death penalty. That changed in the year 2000, and the execution of Carla Faye Tucker in Texas.

A crack addicted prostitute, Tucker murdered an elderly couple with an axe pick, bragged about and was sentenced to death, and rightfully so.

The execution came in 2000, during the presidential election. Pat Robertson urged then Governor Bush to commute the sentence because, as Robertson stated, he believed she had a genuine conversation to Christianity.

I was stunned. Surely, that cannot be the standard to oppose the death penalty, that Pat Robertson had determined someone had a genuine conversion to Christianity? Many death roll inmates have conversions, why Tucker?

She was a pretty white woman, with a nice voice, singing hymns and a strong prison ministry. She said all the “right” things. She knew she was guilty, didn’t want to die, but was eager to be with her Lord Jesus should the state carry out the execution.

I began to study what scripture says about supporting the death penalty and came to the conclusion that the State does have the power of the sword and can implement the death penalty AND that Christians should have no part in supporting that action.

I am happy to have a civil discussion with individuals that are interested in what I found.

Peace to you

I agree with your assessment.

One question that I have is what is being accomplished by the death penalty? This goes to the purpose of justice.

Is it merely to discourage serious offenses? If so then the guilt or innocence of a criminal really does not matter. Justice would do better with more frequent executions. Just pretend they are guilty. That is, if this is the goal.

Is it to remove a dangerous person from society? No, often these criminals are past being a danger (or they never were a danger to society in general) long before they are executed.

Is it reform and reconciliation? No. They are killed.

Is it to provide justice to the families of the victims (who by extention are victims as well)? No. The end result is not justice (it does not repair any damage done).


I have come to view the death penalty as a matter (or right) of the government but also as something that I, as a Christian, cannot support.

Most of the time what I see is less relief that a murderer is killed and more an indulgence in revenge (akin to the satisfaction some derive from the conclusion of a violent movie when the villain is killed by a victim realizing his impending death in his final moments. It is a blood-lust.

 

[Ben1445]

We cannot show mercy and support the killing of someone.

Are we only focused on the criminal? Does the victim, who sometimes survives, and their family not get any justice? Is it merciful to allow criminals to be freed from the consequences of their actions?
I’m not saying that removing future opportunities to come to Christ is my goal. (Which by the way, your opinion, from your Calvinist perspective makes no sense. If God saves who He will, what difference does more time make if they may not come to Him? What difference does less time make if they inevitably will come to Him?)
I don’t see how any of this actually affects us unless any of us are the arm of government. Is there anyone here with the power of pardon? Is there anyone here who has the authority to show the mercy you are calling for?
I am for mercy. But if justice does not exist, there is no such thing as mercy.
And we have lived in a world where justice has not been the normative for quite some time.

I have a hard time understanding why Jesus told the disciples to sell their clothing to buy weapons when Paul said lay aside every weight. If we don’t use weapons for anything, ever, then shouldn’t we not waste our time and money on having them? (Especially at the expense of ones personal clothing)

Don’t bother your conscience.
But don’t judge someone else’s either.

 

[Ben1445]

The quality of mercy is not strained;
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest;
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes:
'T is mightiest in the mightiest; it becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown:
His sceptre shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty,
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings;
But mercy is above this sceptred sway;
It is enthroned in the hearts of kings,
It is an attribute to God himself;
And earthly power doth then show likest God's
When mercy seasons justice.

From The Merchant of Venice

By William Shakespeare

 

[Ascetic X]

I have a hard time understanding why Jesus told the disciples to sell their clothing to buy weapons when Paul said lay aside every weight. If we don’t use weapons for anything, ever, then shouldn’t we not waste our time and money on having them? (Especially at the expense of ones personal clothing)

When we read that Jesus tells his disciples to buy a sword in Luke 22:36-37, it can seem that he is encouraging violence.

Yet when Peter does use a sword in the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus rebukes Peter and heals the man’s ear. So, whatever Jesus was up to in telling his followers to buy swords, he clearly didn’t intend for them to use them as lethal weapons.

A close look at the passage reveals Jesus’ purpose. Immediately after he tells the disciples to buy swords Jesus says, “It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the lawless ones’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment” (vs. 37).

To fulfill prophecy, Jesus had to be viewed as a “lawless” one. In other words, he had to at least appear to be a political revolutionary who was going to try and overthrow the Roman government in Jerusalem. In order for the Jewish authorities to feel justified in arresting him and bringing him to Pilate for crucifixion, he had to have enough weapons to be viewed as a law-breaking rebel.

In the next verse, when the disciples say they have two swords, Jesus says, “That is enough” (vs. 38). Obviously, if Jesus intended for the 12 disciples to actually use swords, two wouldn’t be nearly enough. But it was enough to fulfill the prophecy by making Jesus look like a “lawless” one.

Another explanation is the Greek word used for sword in the original text here is machaira.

In the ancient Roman world, this term was used for a wide range of bladed weapons.

In a military context, it can be used to refer to a heavy, long-bladed military sword.

However, in day-to-day contexts, it is commonly used to refer to a short-bladed instrument – what we would think of today as a dagger or even a utility knife. So, why would his disciples have a couple of daggers or utility knives with them?

When we remember that they were constantly on the road, traveling town to town, the answer instantly emerges. When traveling around, a couple of knives would come in very handy for any number of practical reasons, such as cutting up and preparing food, and protection against wild animals. Jesus’ disciples could be expected to have a couple of knives along for the journey, just as people today always take a knife with them when they go hiking and camping.

 

[DaveXR650]

We are commanded to show mercy, just as God demonstrated mercy to Paul as an example for future Christians to follow.

You are not showing mercy by sparing someone who you don't know, and who has not done anything to you personally - you are just virtue signaling . This occurs a lot in our modern way of thinking. Same with this:

One question that I have is what is being accomplished by the death penalty? This goes to the purpose of justice.

The reasons Jon gives start with the premise that there must be some concrete societal benefit. Some of the points he makes are arguable on that basis but that's not the real reason. This would be the therapeutic approach.

The fact is, outside of virtual signaling and the therapeutic benefits to society, there is the flat out fact that it it right to punish murder with the life of the murderer. They have this very discussion in the old "Lonesome Dove" miniseries when their friend falls in with a bunch of murderers who commit a horrible crime. They hang their friend with them.

There is one good argument against the death penalty. And that is that there is some atrocious police work and some poor excuses for "defense" for some people if they can't afford a good lawyer. If a person who is convicted unjustly is still alive at least there is a chance if new evidence is uncovered. A government that does not punish evil is not a legitimate government. And neither is a government that punishes the innocent.