...remove your lampstand from its place: What do you think this phrase means?

[dianetavegia]

Revelation 2:1 "To the angel of the church of Ephesus write,'These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: 2 I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name's sake and have not become weary. 4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place--unless you repent. 6 But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God." '

Our sermon was on this scripture today and it spoke loudly to me that I have wasted several years that could have been better used to serve the Lord. The phrase, remove your lampstand from its place, wasn't discussed and I'd like opinions on what this means.

Thanks in advance. Not a hit and run but only on the board once in a while now so will respond when I am.

Diane

 

[Salinas]

According to Rev.1:20 the candlestick (lampstand)is a chruch.

Rev.1:20 The mystery of...the seven golden candlesticks.
and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

If the angel didn't repent and do the first works, he was warned that the candlestick\lampstand would be removed.

Revelation 1:13
And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man,

Jesus is walking among the candlesticks. If one is removed, they are taken from the presence of Jesus in this context.

 

[JackRUS]

Most people believe that it means that Christ would close down the church. It was on it's to being a dead church.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

You have to be realized, throughout in Revelation chapter 2 and 3 talking lot with the warnings of conditional. Christ warns us, if we do not watch and repent of our works. He shall come upon us as thief, and removed us from his place. It warns us, if we do not watch and repent of our sins, He might removed us away for his place-kingdom(everlasting kingdom-New Jerusalem). Cast us away into everlasting punihmsnet - lake of fire. Sorry to saying it. Do not argue with me. Argue with Jesus Christ, what He saying.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[dianetavegia]

I don't believe this means we lose our salvation, Deaftrib. I do believe God removes His protection and Spirit from churches or religious foundations/ groups that water down the Gospel or are accepting of deviant lifestyles, such as Baalam did.

Thanks for the answers! Sorry it took so long to return. Been busy with hurricane evacuees.

Diane

 

[blackbird]

Since Jesus and the church are inseperable--and since the word from the Word is crystal clear that the church is His body and He is the head of that body---it would be impossible to assume---He's gonna come and "amputate" Himself---or seperate Himself from the church.

Removal of lampstand???

Removal of lampstand???

Think about it!! What does a lamp do??

It illuminates, of course!!

I believe this speaks of the illumination of His glory!! Remove the lampstand---and the glory fades--it becomes dull---looses its glow!! Remember ole Moses on Sinai??? He'd be up there---glowin' like a Westinghouse lightbulb---and then he'd come down and the folks around would say

"Look there at Moses! He's different than us!! He's been where God is!!"

Then after a while---the longer ole Moses would "hang around" the people---the more the glory would fade---until soon he was just like the rest of the people---then he'd go up to Sinai and get some more glory!!

The book of Hebrews says that we have not come to Sinai---but we have come to Sion---where we can enjoy continual fellowship with the Lord Jesus through the word from the Word---we can go from glory to glory to glory to glory to glory!! See???

Now---you start dabblin' in sin and fail to repent---guess what??? You fail in the plan of going from glory to glory to glory---and pretty soon---just like Moses---you become "as everyone else"---no illumination---no radiation!! Jesus will come and just remove what glory ain't gone---and soon---there's no difference between you and everybody else!!!!

See????

[ September 10, 2005, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: blackbird ]

 

[dianetavegia]

Blackbird, then WE, as the Body of Christ, should remove ourselves from churches or organizations that do not uplift Christ Jesus and have solid Biblical teachings, so that our light (testimony) will not be affected, dimmed, watered down, etc.

I'll go a step further and say this would be a good argument for Biblical Separation.

Again, this has nothing to do with Eternal Salvation, as I read it.

Thanks!

 

[Marcia]

So what do you all think of Christian organizations that are involved in political activism having alliances with groups like the Mormons on issues such as abortion?

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
I don't believe this means we lose our salvation, Deaftrib. I do believe God removes His protection and Spirit from churches or religious foundations/ groups that water down the Gospel or are accepting of deviant lifestyles, such as Baalam did.

Thanks for the answers! Sorry it took so long to return. Been busy with hurricane evacuees.

Diane

But in the New Testament Jesus doesn't deal with groups, He deals with individuals. Where does it say that this group or that group is a false prophet? I believe that Jesus was speaking to the individuals that made up this church. How does a church repent? Individuals repent. They might then change a church because of that but the action is always with the individual.

God dealt differently with the Jewish nation. Personally, I've never been able to understand that.

 

[bapmom]

Marcia

On some issues we are bound to agree with other groups like the Mormons, who do try to live holy lives and have conservative political values. But I don't think that means we have to actively join hands with them in an organizational sense. So I'd stay away from a Christian organization that is ecumenical like that, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't do my own protesting. You know?

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
Revelation 2:1 "To the angel of the church of Ephesus write,'These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: 2 I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name's sake and have not become weary. 4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place--unless you repent. 6 But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God." '

Our sermon was on this scripture today and it spoke loudly to me that I have wasted several years that could have been better used to serve the Lord. The phrase, remove your lampstand from its place, wasn't discussed and I'd like opinions on what this means.

Thanks in advance. Not a hit and run but only on the board once in a while now so will respond when I am.

Diane

When the Jew lit the candles in the temple, the "CENTER CANDLE" in the "MENORAH" was lit first, then used to light the other candles.

who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands

Jesus is the "CENTER CANDLE", (light of the world) that light all other candles, your, mine.

We can "Backslide" to the point that God will "literally" turn our "FLESH" over to satan, but our souls will still be saved.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The "HOLY GHOST", (our Spiritual light) is "greater than Satan", however, if the "Spiritual LIGHT" is removed, then we are at the mercy of Satan.

I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place

We can never lose salvation, (spiritual life), but we sure can lose our "physical life".

This is "CHASTISEMENT", not "wrath".

P.S. turning the flesh over to satan is what God does to Israel during the trib, for rejecting Jesus, and the reason they suffer the trib and we don't.

 

[RightFromWrong]

RIGHT ON

 

[Benjamin]

Originally posted by Marcia:
So what do you all think of Christian organizations that are involved in political activism having alliances with groups like the Mormons on issues such as abortion?

One thought:


(Luk 9:49) And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbade him, because he followeth not with us.

(Luk 9:50) And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

 

[Marcia]

Benjamin, we are not sure what "he followeth not with us" means. It does not necessarily mean those casting out devils were not believers. Maybe it means they were not apostles or disciples.

John answered,165 "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop166 him because he is not a disciple167 along with us." 9:50 But Jesus said to him, "Do not stop him, for whoever is not against you is for you."

The footnote in the NET Bible says this for 167:

tn Grk "does not follow with us." BDAG 36 s.v. ajkolouqevw 2 indicates that the pronoun soi (soi, "you") is to be supplied after the verb in this particular instance; the translation in the text best represents this nuance.

Would Jesus say that an unbeliever was "for" them?
After all, Jesus said this:

Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. Matt 12.30

So I don't think the people referred to in Lk 9.49,50 are unbelievers.

I guess further discussion on this point should be on its own thread since this is off topic here.

 

[Watchman]

The lampstands are clearly identified as churches. The Lord said that He will, "remove your lampstand from IT'S place." A church assembly, group or organization can so depart from Christ (and THE faith) that it is no good to the Lord Jesus at all.
As for the individuals in such a group: those that are really His should have the good sense to come out from among them.

 

[robycop3]

I think we've all seen what it means...we've all seen more than one "dead" church fold. A church in Proctorville, OH, about 5 miles from my home, thus folded a few years ago, and its building, the largest one in town, is now the Village Hall. However, it still has its steeple, bell, and stained-glass windows. NO SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE HERE!(lol)

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by robycop3:
I think we've all seen what it means...we've all seen more than one "dead" church fold.

The church at Sardis had not folded - it had a reputation for being alive but was, in reality, on the verge of death - and was already dead so far as any fruitfulness for God.

As for the warning to Ephesus, the "candlesticks" were the churches and so the "place" was their place among the churches of Jesus Christ. Jesus is simply warning His churches that if they drift too far they will forfeit their position as one of His churches and no longer be a light for Him.

I quite suspect there are many churches holding services, and even having great crowds, which have already lost their place among the Lord's churches (not to mention those which never belonged to the Lord in the first place).

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Joanna]

When churches are dead, the Holy Spirit has departed, and the true light and witness is gone.

 

[robycop3]

I reckon it IS possible for a church to "revive" if the right leadership comes along, a pastor on fire for God who invigorates the members to begin to TRULY worship, praise, and serve GOD. But seeing as how it's GOD'S church to begin with, He can prosper it or decline it as He chooses.

 

[Joanna]

I think repentance would be in order first, just like in OT times Israel first had to put away their strange god.