Repeating themes in Revelation

[Charlie24]

The title of the thread is "Repeating themes in Revelation," which refers to our thread founder's view that the seals, trumpets, and vials in Revelation are those repeating themes. However, I submit that the book does not present them as parallel themes (if I have canadyjd correctly), but as chronological events. Note that the 7th seal judgment is the trumpet judgments (8:1-2). That makes the trumpet judgments a continuation of the seal judgments. It cannot be parallel because of that, but consecutive.

The whole concept of his theory is that of a courtroom trial. There is no time taking place in revelation as we see it, it's all the action of the court through God, the prophets and broken covenants. It's all a legal act rather than a timeline.

It's a completely different concept of the judgments and timeline leading up to Israel's redemption.

 

[canadyjd]

The title of the thread is "Repeating themes in Revelation," which refers to our thread founder's view that the seals, trumpets, and vials in Revelation are those repeating themes. However, I submit that the book does not present them as parallel themes (if I have canadyjd correctly), but as chronological events. Note that the 7th seal judgment is the trumpet judgments (8:1-2). That makes the trumpet judgments a continuation of the seal judgments. It cannot be parallel because of that, but consecutive.

When the 7th seal of the scroll is opened, the entire scroll can now be read, not just the summaries.

The martyrs have already been mentioned twice. They will be mentioned again. The language is similar in cho 20-21. No more tears, no more pain.

It is said a new Jerusalem will come down from heaven to a new heaven and new earth where the elect will reign with Christ. (Not on this current earth, where enemies abound) This is repeated in Chapter 20, that they will reign with Christ for 1000 years.

Earthquakes have already been mentioned, plagues, famines have all been mentioned.

The Trumpets sound the judgement mentioned earlier but with greater detail.

It is repeating themes, not chronological.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Duplicate post

 

[canadyjd]

Peace

 

[Charlie24]

Well then, no need to discuss it, since you know.

Peace to you

Yes, I agree! Our minds are in totally different places, comunication is virtually imposible for us.

 

[canadyjd]

The whole concept of his theory is that of a courtroom trial. There is no time taking place in revelation as we see it, it's all the action of the court through God, the prophets and broken covenants. It's all a legal act rather than a timeline.

It's a completely different concept of the judgments and timeline leading up to Israel's redemption.

That is mostly accurate, but it is not the result of imposing a theological view on the text. It is simply seeing the context as revealed to John.

Peace to you

 

[Charlie24]

That is mostly accurate, but it is not the result of imposing a theological view on the text. It is simply seeing the context as revealed to John.

Peace to you

But it's view through the lens of Covenant Theology.

 

[canadyjd]

But its view through the lens of Covenant Theology.

I really don’t know if others view it through the lens of covenant theology or dispensationalism. I’m not sure how that would impact the facts laid out, other than the issue of writing on repeating themes, not chronological order.

I am only interested in the context. John is describing a bema seat judgement. Because it it a bema seat judgement, the scroll that contains the case has 7 seals (death penalty and or will). Each seal contains a summary of the contents of that section.

Once the 7th seal is opened, the entire scroll is read and judgement is pronounced.

Does dispensationalism recognize the great throne judgement?

Peace to you

 

[Charlie24]

I really don’t know if others view it through the lens of covenant theology or dispensationalism. I’m not sure how that would impact the facts laid out, other than the issue of writing on repeating themes, not chronological order.

I am only interested in the context. John is describing a bema seat judgement. Because it it a bema seat judgement, the scroll that contains the case has 7 seals (death penalty and or will). Each seal contains a summary of the contents of that section.

Once the 7th seal is opened, the entire scroll is read and judgement is pronounced.

Does dispensationalism recognize the great throne judgement?

Peace to you

Yes, dispensationalism recognizes the GWTJ. But it doesn't recognize it by broken covenants as Covenant Theology.

Dispensations follows the 7 dispensations in history according to how God dealt with Israel and the Gentiles in different ways.

During the GT God is dealing with the Gentile world that is in unbelief and at the same time with Israel through His wrath.

What take place in Revelation is a 7 year period in time from Rev. 6-19.

 

[John of Japan]

The whole concept of his theory is that of a courtroom trial. There is no time taking place in revelation as we see it, it's all the action of the court through God, the prophets and broken covenants. It's all a legal act rather than a timeline.

It's a completely different concept of the judgments and timeline leading up to Israel's redemption.

This answer is puzzling. Does not a trial take time? Is time somehow suspended in the book of Revelation? Scientists call time the fourth dimension, and it cannot be suspended (except by God, of course).

 

[John of Japan]

When the 7th seal of the scroll is opened, the entire scroll can now be read, not just the summaries.

The martyrs have already been mentioned twice. They will be mentioned again. The language is similar in cho 20-21. No more tears, no more pain.

It is said a new Jerusalem will come down from heaven to a new heaven and new earth where the elect will reign with Christ. (Not on this current earth, where enemies abound) This is repeated in Chapter 20, that they will reign with Christ for 1000 years.

Earthquakes have already been mentioned, plagues, famines have all been mentioned.

The Trumpets sound the judgement mentioned earlier but with greater detail.

It is repeating themes, not chronological.

Peace to you

You did not really answer my point, which was that the 7 trumpets come in the 7th seal, therefore showing continuation. Why would not that progression indicate a timeline?

 

[John of Japan]

It is said a new Jerusalem will come down from heaven to a new heaven and new earth where the elect will reign with Christ. (Not on this current earth, where enemies abound) This is repeated in Chapter 20, that they will reign with Christ for 1000 years.

You never answered my facetious but real point about that. Where are we when the martyrs are reigning with Christ? Do only they get to rule with Christ while we watch?

 

[Charlie24]

You did not really answer my point, which was that the 7 trumpets come in the 7th seal, therefore showing continuation.

Yes, it is a definite continuation.

 

[Charlie24]

This answer is puzzling. Does not a trial take time? Is time somehow suspended in the book of Revelation? Scientists call time the fourth dimension, and it cannot be suspended (except by God, of course).

The time as in continuation in chronological order is not recognized.

The events that take place are judgments as in a court of law waged against Israel.

 

[Charlie24]

The time as in continuation in chronological order is not recognized.

The events that take place are judgments as in a court of law waged against Israel.

It's difficult to explain, but in the Covenant Lawsuit theory the judgments taking place in Rev. are seen as court proceedings.

It's the indictment of broken covenants against God rather than the way we see a continuation of events in order in real time.

 

[canadyjd]

You did not really answer my point, which was that the 7 trumpets come in the 7th seal, therefore showing continuation. Why would not that progression indicate a timeline?

To answer the question directly, the opening of the 7th seal shows a timeline, if you will, in the progression of the trial. Each seal must be opened in order.

After the 6th seal is opened, there is pause, sometimes referred to as an interlude. Here is the mention of the 144,000 of Israel and of the martyrs “slain in the great tribulation” (which you couldn’t find a reference of) a number too large to count.

These are the martyrs referenced in the previous seal (#5?), that were crying out “how long”. (A repeating theme). God gives them comfort (a theme repeated in Chp 20)

When the 7th scroll is opened, the entire contents are revealed, elaborating on the summary of the previous seals.

The contents are revealed, not in chronological order, but in repeating themes, which is characteristic of the way John writes.

If you will consider it, I’ll take the time to point out the various themes, though I would rather all simply read it themselves and look for the similarities in various events.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

You never answered my facetious but real point about that. Where are we when the martyrs are reigning with Christ? Do only they get to rule with Christ while we watch?

We all get what Jesus promised. I will not envy those that were martyred, during the great tribulation or during others, and rule with Christ, nor will I mock their sacrifice, even if it is just being facetious.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Yes, dispensationalism recognizes the GWTJ. But it doesn't recognize it by broken covenants as Covenant Theology.

Dispensations follows the 7 dispensations in history according to how God dealt with Israel and the Gentiles in different ways.

During the GT God is dealing with the Gentile world that is in unbelief and at the same time with Israel through His wrath.

What take place in Revelation is a 7 year period in time from Rev. 6-19.

Thank you for explaining the dispensational view.

If you start another thread explaining the 7 timelines, I will respectfully consider what you write

Peace to you

 

[Charlie24]

To answer the question directly, the opening of the 7th seal shows a timeline, if you will, in the progression of the trial. Each seal must be opened in order.

After the 6th seal is opened, there is pause, sometimes referred to as an interlude. Here is the mention of the 144,000 of Israel and of the martyrs “slain in the great tribulation” (which you couldn’t find a reference of) a number too large to count.

These are the martyrs referenced in the previous seal (#5?), that were crying out “how long”. (A repeating theme). God gives them comfort (a theme repeated in Chp 20)

When the 7th scroll is opened, the entire contents are revealed, elaborating on the summary of the previous seals.

The contents are revealed, not in chronological order, but in repeating themes, which is characteristic of the way John writes.

If you will consider it, I’ll take the time to point out the various themes, though I would rather all simply read it themselves and look for the similarities in various events.

Peace to you

It would help me to know if this framework you are presenting is in the Preterist view?

That way I will know where we're going.