Repent and Be Saved?

[rstrats]

Naomi,

re: “How did you [come to] believe in the current beliefs you hold?”

I don’t know. Most likely as a result of being exposed to literature, lectures, discussions, thinking, etc. All I know for sure is that I didn’t consciously CHOOSE any of them. I was simply suddenly aware that I had a new belief - a conviction without doubt - about something.

re: “The choice comes in, when we choose to believe that God, our creator, became a man, dwelt among us, became the sacrifice for our sins, and rose again on the third day.’

But how do you actually cause yourself to believe? What is it that you do at the last moment to make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

re: “Now, what do you believe?”

A few things would be: That my Dad loves me, that chili shouldn’t have beans in it, that liberalism is generally wrong, that the earth circles the sun, that I can’t become a more compassionate person, that belief can not be CHOSEN, that the crucifixion didn’t occur on a Friday.

 

[rstrats]

aiki,

re: “Why do you think that belief must be totally without doubt?”

Because that is the way that I wish to define belief - a conviction without any doubt. I am looking for people who agree with that definition and say that they can CHOOSE to do it. You imply that you don’t agree with that definition. So are you saying that John 3:16 could be written: “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whoever is almost sure that He exists, with only a little bit of doubt, should not perish but have everlasting life” ?


re: “Paul the apostle provides something of an answer to your question in 2 Timothy 1:11 [actually verse 12] “

With all due respect, the verse has nothing to do with my question: “What do YOU do at the last moment to make your lack of belief in something, instantly change to belief?"

[ June 16, 2002, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: rstrats ]

 

[aiki]

rstrats,

You wrote:

So are you saying that John 3:16 could be written: “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whoever is almost sure that He exists, with only a little bit of doubt, should not perish but have everlasting life” ?

As I said, one can truly believe a thing while still holding some doubt about it. Doubt indicates a weak faith or belief, not necessarily the complete absence of belief. Look at the apostle Peter, for example. He had faith in Christ strong enough to walk out on stormy waves to him but not strong enough to withstand the daunting influence of that stormy environment. Did Peter lose all faith in Christ at the moment he began to sink into the waves? No, if that were true he wouldn't have called out to Jesus to save him (Matt. 14:30) -- but he did doubt.

How about the father of the demonized boy who cries out in desperation, "Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." (Mk. 9:24)? He defines "baby faith", or a faith that has yet to "enter into rest". And he, like Peter, also illustrates that faith and doubt are not mutually exclusive.

James indicates that the acid test of real belief or faith is whether or not it affects my behaviour (Ja. 2:26). As far as God is concerned, my belief is true belief, even if it is diminished somewhat by doubt, if that belief orders my actions.

You wrote:

“What do YOU do at the last moment to make your lack of belief in something, instantly change to belief?"

I quoted Paul in answer to this question in part because his experience is the same as mine (and yours, I suspect). What, by the way, do you mean by "at the last moment"?

God bless.

[ June 16, 2002, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: aiki ]

 

[rstrats]

aiki,

re: “As I said, one can truly believe a thing while still holding some doubt about it.”

Since we have different definitions of belief, you will not be able to help me in my quest to learn how it is possible to CHOOSE to believe something.

As for Peter, it would seem that he believed that he could walk on the water when he started his walk, but lost that belief part way through it. He believed, then he didn’t. You can’t do both at the same time regarding the same thing.

Regarding the father who said “I believe; help my unbelief”; the only way that makes any sense is to understand him to be saying that he believes in one thing but doesn’t believe in another.

re: “What, by the way, do you mean by ‘at the last moment’?”

The moment when lack of belief makes the instantaneous transition to belief.

 

[aiki]

rstrats,

You wrote:

As for Peter, it would seem that he believed that he could walk on the water when he started his walk, but lost that belief part way through it. He believed, then he didn’t. You can’t do both at the same time regarding the same thing.

Well, maybe it would help to point out the verbal exchange between Peter and Christ before he stepped out onto the water.

Matthew 14:28&29:

"And Peter answered him and said, "Lord, if it be you, bid me come to you on the water." And he said, "Come." And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus."

Peter's faith was in Christ's power before he stepped onto the waves and (as I pointed out in my last post) after he began to sink into them. Peter's fear never completely negated his belief in Christ's power.

You wrote:

Regarding the father who said “I believe; help my unbelief”; the only way that makes any sense is to understand him to be saying that he believes in one thing but doesn’t believe in another.

Hmmm...There really isn't anything in the context of the father's statement to support what you are saying...

I'm sorry that you have limited your thinking so much in this area that I am of no use to you. Ah, well...

By the way, equating belief with absolute certainty ignores the multitude of daily instances in every person's life where belief exists apart from such certainty.

Anyway, God bless as you search out a deeper understanding of this stuff.

 

[rstrats]

aiki,

re: “Peter's faith was in Christ's power before he stepped onto the waves and (as I pointed out in my last post) after he began to sink into them. Peter's fear never completely negated his belief in Christ's power.”

Sorry, but there are two different beliefs involved. The first being that he could walk on water - which he subsequently lost - and the second being that the Messiah could save him from drowning. You simply cannot believe and not believe the same thing at the same time.

re: “There really isn't anything in the context of the father's statement to support what you are saying.”

Nor is there anything in his statement to support your contention that he believes and at the same time doesn’t believe regarding the exact same thing. Again, the only way that makes any sense is to understand him to be saying that he believes in one thing but that he doesn’t believe in another.

re: “I'm sorry that you have limited your thinking so much in this area.......”

I am only limited by my definition of belief just as you are limited by yours. I think that John 3:16 means that a person has to be convinced without a doubt that the Messiah exists, and it seems that you think that it means that a person only has to think that maybe he exists.

re: “Anyway, God bless as you search out a deeper understanding of this stuff.”

Thank you, but I’m afraid that I have no understanding at all about how it is possible for a person to CHOOSE to believe something.