Dude? Are you for real? My goodness. The Bible clearly teaches salvation is by faith. You can't answer in the proper manner and continue with this kind of response. At least have the integrity to reply with some Biblical answers or address the Scripture given to you. Otherwise, bow out, but do it with decency.
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Repent without Belief
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Dude? Are you for real? My goodness. The Bible clearly teaches salvation is by faith. You can't answer in the proper manner and continue with this kind of response. At least have the integrity to reply with some Biblical answers or address the Scripture given to you. Otherwise, bow out, but do it with decency.
Study your Bible. Only Christ can save.
Try Islam, Hinduism, etc. But only Christ can save.
It is not grace--the grace of Allah--"He is all gracious," they say.
It is not faith--Faith in Hinduism--"Baptize yourself in the Ganges River and have your sins washed away by its holy waters."
If you want to believe in Hinduism or Islam be my guest.
But it is Christ that saves. You may have other gods; but Christ is the only ONE that saves. He said:
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)
I hope you understand that you have been asking the wrong questions.
You really need to answer that post. Better yet, you need to read and study your Bible. You are a confused man.
Another thing, this post was addressing your scorning of Benjamin and his "typos" to show you that once again ridiculed him unfairly.
Wow, I had been enjoying your posts until now. Into the kill file for thee.
convicted1
Guest
I think I stand in the "middle" of where this war of words is. Here's my "take" regarding this, and then I guess I'll get the "hammer" from both sides of this argument...er.....I meant, thread....LOL
The deabte rages on where "grace" and "faith" come in, in regards to salvation. I will try to show what part they each play in the salvation process.
Here's the definition of faith:
Heb. 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
So, in essence, faith is putting your trust in something that you can not see, feel, taste, etc.....IOW, trusting in something that you can not truly prove to the world. Without this faith, the elders could not obtain a good report. So without faith, there is no good report, or, to a further extent, salvation.
Now, here are some verses that shows what faith does to people who really believe:
Heb. 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Rom. 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom. 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Rom. 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Gal. 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Heb. 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Hab. 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
Now, here are some verses that talk about grace:
Tit. 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Rom. 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom. 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom. 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
So in summation, no, faith by itself does not save you. But, faith is the means by which grace travels. Without faith in God, there is no grace being applied to anyone. Will God save a true unbeliever? When one repents of their sins, they have to have faith in God. So, faith goes hand-in-hand with grace. No faith equals no grace.
God's grace is Jesus, who was slain on a tree at Calvary, was laid in the heart of the earth for three days and nights, was resurrected the third morning, and received into heaven in the Cloud of Glory. Now, without faith in this work of Christ, grace will not be applied to that individual. A lost person must believe that "He is, and that He is a Rewarder of them which do diligently seek Him"(Heb. 11:6). God shows them their lost condition, and they must believe that what is showing them is true. If they believe in Him from the heart, God applies His grace, and they are saved. If they fail to believe, God will not apply His grace, and if they die in this condition, they die lost.
i am I AM'S!!
Willis
PS Like I stated earlier, "no faith=no grace"
The deabte rages on where "grace" and "faith" come in, in regards to salvation. I will try to show what part they each play in the salvation process.
Here's the definition of faith:
Heb. 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
So, in essence, faith is putting your trust in something that you can not see, feel, taste, etc.....IOW, trusting in something that you can not truly prove to the world. Without this faith, the elders could not obtain a good report. So without faith, there is no good report, or, to a further extent, salvation.
Now, here are some verses that shows what faith does to people who really believe:
Heb. 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Rom. 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom. 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Rom. 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Gal. 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Heb. 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Hab. 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
Now, here are some verses that talk about grace:
Tit. 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Rom. 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom. 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom. 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
So in summation, no, faith by itself does not save you. But, faith is the means by which grace travels. Without faith in God, there is no grace being applied to anyone. Will God save a true unbeliever? When one repents of their sins, they have to have faith in God. So, faith goes hand-in-hand with grace. No faith equals no grace.
God's grace is Jesus, who was slain on a tree at Calvary, was laid in the heart of the earth for three days and nights, was resurrected the third morning, and received into heaven in the Cloud of Glory. Now, without faith in this work of Christ, grace will not be applied to that individual. A lost person must believe that "He is, and that He is a Rewarder of them which do diligently seek Him"(Heb. 11:6). God shows them their lost condition, and they must believe that what is showing them is true. If they believe in Him from the heart, God applies His grace, and they are saved. If they fail to believe, God will not apply His grace, and if they die in this condition, they die lost.
i am I AM'S!!
Willis
PS Like I stated earlier, "no faith=no grace"
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preacher4truth
Active Member
OK. You're saved by faith.
I'm not. I'm saved by grace.
But, your faith didn't save you. All of you lack understanding of this. It's very important for you to come to the realization that it is grace that saved you. You need to get out of kindergarten theologically.
By grace are you saved through faith. By what are you saved?
Your misunderstanding is a grave and serious error. You've got to get a grip on this basic truth. Obviously you can quote Scripture. That's because you know what it says, but you don't know what it means.
Go do a study on it. You'll find nowhere Paul bragging that his faith saved him, but that he was saved by grace. You won't even find him stating that his faith saved him. He understands, unlike you at this point in your walk, that grace alone saved him.
Here's your error plainly: You are saying you were saved by faith. Saved is to be rescued. You rescued yourself? Do you tell God that? Not so. Grace proceeds faith. Anywhere someone believed to salvation it was due to God's grace. They were never saved or rescued from impending danger by their "faith." As a matter of fact, the faith in salvation was given to them as a gift in the first place. It is grace that saves, not faith.
Not one person in heaven is saying "my faith got me here." It's absurdity to think so. You really have a great misunderstanding of what faith is.
Now since you've been made aware of your error, perhaps do a little contextual analysis on texts seemingly saying faith saved you, and consider the entire counsel of God on this?
When you thank God for saving you, do you tell Him that your faith saved you? Or do you thank Him for saving you by His grace?
You really need to think this out brothers.
preacher4truth
Active Member
That you attempt to lay upon me " Study your Bible only Christ can save" is another attempt of yours to lay something on me I have not said, and to twist things again as if I deny this basic truth.
I've never said any such thing, nor like. So again, you start off your logic with a flaw and another lie.
You're right. Christ alone saves. It's called grace. Not you or your faith.
You're the one in grave error friend.
Your illustrations of false gods proves something? That's your apologetic to prove grace doesn't save? WOW.
And by the way, I'm talking the grace of God.
Your theological acumen is very very weak DHK. Your understaning of faith is borderline "word-faith." You're clueless if you think your faith saved you, and that you mock grace saving is telltale.
I would never mock salvation by grace and replace it with my "faith."
But go ahead, you'll stay on this wrong track theologically anyhow.
Some just never get out of kindergarten theologically.
And those they teach never rise above them either.
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quantumfaith
Active Member
It is a very simple mathematical (logical) operation:
Grace "n" faith "n" belief
"n" = logical intersection "n" operator
Grace "and" faith "and" belief. Grace must be first, as it only due to God's Grace that salvation has been provided. But it must also be noticed that without all of the variables in place the statement would be incomplete and thus not true. Grace has been provided, which we all agree, thus it should be considered a mathematical constant. The variables thus being faith and belief.
Grace "n" faith "n" belief
"n" = logical intersection "n" operator
Grace "and" faith "and" belief. Grace must be first, as it only due to God's Grace that salvation has been provided. But it must also be noticed that without all of the variables in place the statement would be incomplete and thus not true. Grace has been provided, which we all agree, thus it should be considered a mathematical constant. The variables thus being faith and belief.
I don't usually post on the more doctrinal/theological threads. I prefer to be a reader, but I'd like to make one observation.
I applaud those who have referenced Scripture when stating their cases. It seems to me that any question of doctrine should be grounded in God's Word.
I have noticed that Preacher4truth has not cited any.
Buddies no more? :smilewinkgrin:
:laugh::smilewinkgrin:
To try to get back on track about the original OP about belief.......Ive had similar questions about it myself & just yesterday my wife also began asking about this, the born again stuff etc. Now she is about doing many works & helping people & animals etc but she isn't a church goer. However she does pray, she does love the lord, she has come to a place in her life where she believes in giving back.....but she isn't sure of salvation......Well I have a brother named David Montgomery who is a PB & written extensively to communicate with the basic Christian. Anyway, here is Brother Montgomery's explanation & I have FWD it to my wife for her own edification.
Primitive Baptists believe in Holy Spirit Regeneration. The Holy Spirit comes down and kindles the pilot light in us. Where once was death and depravity is now life and righteousness. The Holy Spirit is like the wind—it comes and goes when and where it pleases. We can’t tell the wind when to start blowing, where to blow, when to stop, etc, and it is the same with the Holy Spirit. Jesus made this analogy Himself in John 3:8, “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”
So what if I believe the gospel but I am not born again? Go back and re-read this article, then read 2Timothy 1:10, and then write your name 1000 times. Belief is a sign of life…it confirms that you have been born again, it is not the cause of regeneration but an effect of it.
So what if I am born again but do not believe the gospel? Go back and re-read this article, then read Romans 3:3, and then write your name 10,000 times and stop worrying about stuff like this. Believe is a wonderful thing and you should believe, it will bring you great happiness and joy to your life; but just as belief does not cause regeneration, unbelief does not cancel or annul it. God’s grace is not dependent on your obedience.
No, you are saved by grace through faith. Grace is always there. But salvation is dependent upon faith. No faith, no salvation. This is very basic Christianity.
I have to come back to "kindergarten" theology to deal with the likes of you.
Grace is settled. Faith brings salvation.
No misunderstanding on my part. I know what the Bible teaches and means concerning this.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."
Salvation is made available to all who BELIEVE the gospel.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith
Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 Through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Not just these scriptures, but more.
Merely relying on the grace of God will not save you. It is FAITH in Jesus Christ which saves you and brings you into His eternal kingdom.
See above. It has always been faith that reckons justification. Your problem is that you are sooo concerned with reformed theology that you err on the side of this simple rudimentary doctrine. Of course God's grace is there. It is by His grace that the world is sustained, it is by His grace that He sent His Son to be sacrificed for the sins of humanity. But that grace won't save those who do not believe.
Faith in Jesus Christ is what allows one to enter Heaven. No FAITH in Christ, no Heaven.
Your words certainly have not made aware any error on my part.
I thank God everyday for His grace. It was His grace that sent His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. So when you preach an evangelistic message, do you ignore faith in Christ and tell your hearers to simply trust in God's grace? The Bible doesn't teach that. The Bible teaches to believe on Jesus Christ as Savior to inherit eternal life. That is from the mouth of Jesus Himself. God's grace alone will not save you. His grace is also shed upon unbelievers everyday, but they will not obtain eternal life without faith in His Son.
Same to ya.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Obviously you're incorrect. By grace are you saved. Eph. 2. If you would have actually read it instead of looking for book chapter and verse references you would have recognized it as scripture. Post 66. No need for endless references. Its knowing what the bible means that's important. Im saved by my faith? Absolutely not. Saved by grace? Its the only way to be saved. I certainly did quote scripture. Paul also stated grace saved him. Not faith. I apologize that you didn't see it.
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convicted1
Guest
Could this be the "middle ground" of what both sides of this argument are contending for?
Grace saves, but without "saving faith", grace will not be applied? I see faith as the "catalyst" in the salvation process. Though faith does not save-grace saves-it(faith) speeds up the salvation process.
Definition of "catalyst":
1. substance causing a chemical reaction without itself being affected
2. anything precipitating an event
Grace saves, but without "saving faith", grace will not be applied? I see faith as the "catalyst" in the salvation process. Though faith does not save-grace saves-it(faith) speeds up the salvation process.
Definition of "catalyst":
1. substance causing a chemical reaction without itself being affected
2. anything precipitating an event
I REread #66 and it is there. You are correct that it is mentioned, therefore I retract my last line of post #70.
"No need for endless references. Its knowing what the bible means that's important." I disagree. How are those who are newer in the faith or who lack knowledge of the Bible to know if what is being presented as Scripture is in fact there, and how are they to know what it means unless they know absolutely what it says by checking it themselves?
preacher4truth
Active Member
So, knowing many Scriptures, but not what they mean, is more important than actually knowing their meaning?
Don't the JW's know many Scriptures too, and not what they mean?
It is TRUTH that sets us free, not knowing memory verses. Thus knowing the true meaning is of utmost importance. Consider Paul admonishing Timothy to correctly divide and handle the Word. And consider the Bereans. Proper interpretation and application is also via the Holy Spirit. Continuous error in interpretation, although one may know many verses, may be indicative of a lost spiritual state. To be fair, I am not directing that on anyone in here.
Newer Christians will grow in the faith and knowledge of their Bibles, and as you suggest they should know what their Bibles say. And it is true that newer Christians do not possess a very knowledgable understanding of Scriptures, to them it is as milk, not meat, and along the way they will pick up bad habits and meanings that are not necessarily true, and use them. We practice grace toward these. Behavior, however, I feel we are to admonish them, but let them grow in the Scriptures and truth. It takes time. Knowing what your Bible says is not much if you have no idea what it means.
Unfortunately many never advance. I remember in college many preachers, professors, teachers, telling us that we are not saved by our faith but that we are saved by grace. I could come with hundreds of verses in my mind right then and there, as Gershom does. I wanted to defend my limited knowledge. This provoked me to study it out. I concur with their discovery, although I had always coined it "saved by faith" but genuinley it is "saved by grace."
Look at Paul for instance. He is not stating himself saved by faith in his letters. But he certainly claims grace as the saving factor, over and over and over. And rightly so.
As believers grow, however (hopefully) more questions arise and more filtering of truth goes on, and positions will change on Scriptures in question. That is called growing in grace and in knowlege. Well, at the very least, in the knowledge part.
I know I am saved by grace. To that I give Him Glory.
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psalms109:31
Active Member
Grace through what? What is faith is it trusting in grace itself, or trusting in the finished work of Christ? It is finished, praise to Jesus. Acknowledgment, to declare His work is a precious thing.
We are a body in need of each other to help one another.
Hebrews 3:
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.”[Psalm 95:7,8]
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
Good post.
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