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Repentance: Do We Still Preach It?
- Thread starter Dr. Bob
- Start date
To make your proof-texts into a trio, Dr Bob, here's another one:
"Jesus said, 'Be quick about what you are doing'"
Our minister concluded that the Rich Young Ruler most certainly was not saved - with the implied threat that neither were we unless we simliarly repented!!
Yours in Christ
Matt
"Jesus said, 'Be quick about what you are doing'"
Our minister concluded that the Rich Young Ruler most certainly was not saved - with the implied threat that neither were we unless we simliarly repented!!
Yours in Christ
Matt
James_Newman
New Member
Mark 10
17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
The assumption you are making is that this man was not a believer. When an unbeliever asks you how to get saved, do you tell them to keep the commandments? Apparently thats what you think Jesus is doing here.
Matt17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Did Jesus forget that He was come to die for the sins of the world? Are we not justified by faith?
Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
So when the rich ruler said to him 'these things have I kept', Jesus replyed 'Thou hypocrite! It will be better for Sodom in that day than for you, you lying viper!' No, actually it was quite the opposite:
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
Jesus called this man to be a disciple! This was not an unsaved man being told how to be raised up in the resurrection, this was a believer on Him being issued the high calling from the Lord to forsake everything and follow Him. And he was not willing to.
You are confusing the salvation of an unbeliever with the salvation of a believer. When you take two unrelated passages and assume they teach the Bible truth on the same subject, you approach the Scripture irresponsibly. Rightly divide salvation and you will see that there is a salvation for believers as well as one for unbelievers.
Acts 16 (unbeliever)
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Matt 16 (believer)
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
If you believe that the rich young ruler walked away unsaved that day, I'd like to know what you think is going to save you. I know what saved me, and it wasn't my works, Praise God! But as long as you continue to mash up all the conditional warnings with the unconditional promises, your going to be very dishonest in your interpretation of scripture (because you don't meet the standard that you hold the rich young ruler to, do you?)
17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
The assumption you are making is that this man was not a believer. When an unbeliever asks you how to get saved, do you tell them to keep the commandments? Apparently thats what you think Jesus is doing here.
Matt17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Did Jesus forget that He was come to die for the sins of the world? Are we not justified by faith?
Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
So when the rich ruler said to him 'these things have I kept', Jesus replyed 'Thou hypocrite! It will be better for Sodom in that day than for you, you lying viper!' No, actually it was quite the opposite:
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
Jesus called this man to be a disciple! This was not an unsaved man being told how to be raised up in the resurrection, this was a believer on Him being issued the high calling from the Lord to forsake everything and follow Him. And he was not willing to.
You are confusing the salvation of an unbeliever with the salvation of a believer. When you take two unrelated passages and assume they teach the Bible truth on the same subject, you approach the Scripture irresponsibly. Rightly divide salvation and you will see that there is a salvation for believers as well as one for unbelievers.
Acts 16 (unbeliever)
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Matt 16 (believer)
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
If you believe that the rich young ruler walked away unsaved that day, I'd like to know what you think is going to save you. I know what saved me, and it wasn't my works, Praise God! But as long as you continue to mash up all the conditional warnings with the unconditional promises, your going to be very dishonest in your interpretation of scripture (because you don't meet the standard that you hold the rich young ruler to, do you?)
Jesus was attempting to get him to face his sinfulness, as He does all men.
We MUST see ourselves as sinners and in NEED of a Savior.
That was the PURPOSE of the Law (Commandments) to show us our need of salvation. He proudly asserted he'd kept them all. Jesus moved from the "obvious" Torah commands to one that hit to the quick of this young man. His love of money (idolatry).
And the man left - UNREPENTANT and UNSAVED.
(BTW, many think this was a pre-Damascus Road meeting of Saul as the young sanhedrin member)
We MUST see ourselves as sinners and in NEED of a Savior.
That was the PURPOSE of the Law (Commandments) to show us our need of salvation. He proudly asserted he'd kept them all. Jesus moved from the "obvious" Torah commands to one that hit to the quick of this young man. His love of money (idolatry).
And the man left - UNREPENTANT and UNSAVED.
(BTW, many think this was a pre-Damascus Road meeting of Saul as the young sanhedrin member)
James_Newman
New Member
So you are suggesting that he would have had to give up his money to be raised up on the last day? I ask again, what makes you think you will be saved if the standard for your definition of salvation is 'repentance' i.e. total obedience. I assume you are saying that not only did you keep all those commandments, but you don't covet anything either. You must have repented of all that sin stuff long ago.
If this man didn't know he needed a savior, I hardly imagine he would have run up to the Lord asking how to inherit eternal life. This man knew that there was a Messiah coming, and believed that Jesus was him.
If this man didn't know he needed a savior, I hardly imagine he would have run up to the Lord asking how to inherit eternal life. This man knew that there was a Messiah coming, and believed that Jesus was him.
Charles Meadows
New Member
"(BTW, many think this was a pre-Damascus Road meeting of Saul as the young sanhedrin member."
No he didn't. He knew he wanted eternal life and wanted verification that his KEEPING THE LAW would earn such.
He doesn't call Jesus "Savior" because He wasn't his savior. He wants to know what works will gain him eternal life.
Jesus shows clearly the folly of works, how no one can be perfect. I'm amazed that you don't get it, brother. This is one of the simplest stories of works v grace in the NT.
And the man went away sorrowing. He missed the whole thing. He would not give up his works.
James_Newman
New Member
So you havent answered my question Bob, what makes you think you will be saved? I assume you somehow believe that because you ARE saved, you are exempt from keeping the commandments that Jesus clearly told this man that he must keep to inherit eternal life.
Pete Richert
New Member
Where did Dr. Bob or anybody say that repentance was total obedience?
James_Newman
New Member
What part of sell all that thou hast and give to the poor and pick up your cross and follow me doesn't imply obedience? Apparently, if he was truly repentant of his love of money, he would have done this, right? I agree, if he had repented of his love of money, he would have done exactly what he was commanded to do. How can you have a sin in your life that you have repented of and yet still be carrying that sin?
Pete Richert
New Member
Because we are still sinners. I have repented many times of the sin of being angry, less then generous, covetousness, etc, that doesn't mean I still don't do them from time to time.
Am I to asume if you ever get angry that you have never repented of being angry?
Am I to asume if you ever get angry that you have never repented of being angry?
Quote: By Dr. James Newman
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So you havent answered my question Bob, what makes you think you will be saved? I assume you somehow believe that because you ARE saved, you are exempt from keeping the commandments that Jesus clearly told this man that he must keep to inherit eternal life.
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I know the question was not addressed to me but I can't resist. I know I'm saved because the holy spirit bears witness that i'm saved. 4 years ago i was convicted of my sin and i knew that i stood guilty before God. (i saw myself as God saw me}
It was at this point that i knew i needed to be saved. This is the reason that Jesus died, To pay for my sin. Before this time frame in my life i always knew that there must be a God but i never knew that my sin was seperating me from him.
I have been Born Again. I now agree with God about sin, sin cost our Lord his life. But guess what, he arose on the 3rd day, God was satisfied with the payment, He not only paid for my past sins, He paid for my present sins, and He paid for my future sins.[Study the Atonement]
I have stopped trusting in myself and started trusting in the BLOOD sacrifice [JESUS] that God provided for me.
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Quote by Dr. James Newman
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I ask again, what makes you think you will be saved if the standard for your definition of salvation is 'repentance' i.e. total obedience.
--------------------------------------------------
God's standard for salvation is complete perfection. No one will go to heaven unless they are absolutly perfect. And guess what, we can't meet it. What did Jesus say, I am the way the truth the life, no man comes to the father but by me.
I'll tell you something we don't preach enough on and some have a misunderstanding about it.
YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN
This means to start over, to agree with God about sin, to understand that you can't make it without Jesus, to stop trusting in yourself.
It also means that YOU MUST DIE. Jesus said,
Deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me,
For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it. The cross means the same thing today as it did 2000 years ago. It means DEATH, If you want to live you must DIE.
-------------------------------------------------
So you havent answered my question Bob, what makes you think you will be saved? I assume you somehow believe that because you ARE saved, you are exempt from keeping the commandments that Jesus clearly told this man that he must keep to inherit eternal life.
-------------------------------------------------
I know the question was not addressed to me but I can't resist. I know I'm saved because the holy spirit bears witness that i'm saved. 4 years ago i was convicted of my sin and i knew that i stood guilty before God. (i saw myself as God saw me}
It was at this point that i knew i needed to be saved. This is the reason that Jesus died, To pay for my sin. Before this time frame in my life i always knew that there must be a God but i never knew that my sin was seperating me from him.
I have been Born Again. I now agree with God about sin, sin cost our Lord his life. But guess what, he arose on the 3rd day, God was satisfied with the payment, He not only paid for my past sins, He paid for my present sins, and He paid for my future sins.[Study the Atonement]
I have stopped trusting in myself and started trusting in the BLOOD sacrifice [JESUS] that God provided for me.
-------------------------------------------------
Quote by Dr. James Newman
--------------------------------------------------
I ask again, what makes you think you will be saved if the standard for your definition of salvation is 'repentance' i.e. total obedience.
--------------------------------------------------
God's standard for salvation is complete perfection. No one will go to heaven unless they are absolutly perfect. And guess what, we can't meet it. What did Jesus say, I am the way the truth the life, no man comes to the father but by me.
I'll tell you something we don't preach enough on and some have a misunderstanding about it.
YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN
This means to start over, to agree with God about sin, to understand that you can't make it without Jesus, to stop trusting in yourself.
It also means that YOU MUST DIE. Jesus said,
Deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me,
For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it. The cross means the same thing today as it did 2000 years ago. It means DEATH, If you want to live you must DIE.
--------------------------------------------------
Quote by DR. James Newman
"The rich young ruler was saved"
--------------------------------------------------
I've never seen anyone get saved and go away sad.
Maybe you believe that there are Two classes of believers, disciples and regular believers and that he was already saved. Please explain how you think he was saved.
Quote by DR. James Newman
"The rich young ruler was saved"
--------------------------------------------------
I've never seen anyone get saved and go away sad.
Maybe you believe that there are Two classes of believers, disciples and regular believers and that he was already saved. Please explain how you think he was saved.
James_Newman
New Member
Maybe you should define what it means to repent. I'm not so sure being angry is a sin, but it can certainly cause you to sin.
Ephesians 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Suppose you had a problem with fornication. Do you have to stop fornicating to get saved?
What about drunkenness, do you have to stop drinking to get saved?
What about gluttony, do you have to stop eating to get saved?
What about coveting, do you have to stop coveting to get saved? The bible says if you look at a woman to lust, you have committed adultery with her in your heart. Can you be an adulterer and be saved? The bible says if you hate your brother, you have murdered him in your heart. Can you be a murderer and be saved?
Ephesians 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Suppose you had a problem with fornication. Do you have to stop fornicating to get saved?
What about drunkenness, do you have to stop drinking to get saved?
What about gluttony, do you have to stop eating to get saved?
What about coveting, do you have to stop coveting to get saved? The bible says if you look at a woman to lust, you have committed adultery with her in your heart. Can you be an adulterer and be saved? The bible says if you hate your brother, you have murdered him in your heart. Can you be a murderer and be saved?
James_Newman
New Member
Your exactly right, there are obedient believers and there are disobedient believers. If Jesus was asked what this man needed to do to inherit eternal life, and Jesus saw that he needed to believe on Him in order to be saved, don't you think Jesus would have told him so? Otherwise, Jesus is saying that we can be saved by works? Or He is lying?
Actually, the rich young ruler was not saved. He was someone under the law, and he was proud of his accomplishments. Also, he was looking for a contract. I.E., he wanted Jesus to guarentee that his good works would get him eternal life. But, Jesus showed him that his righteousness was as filthy rags. He put his wealth before God, so he went away sad.
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Quote
Your exactly right, there are obedient believers and there are disobedient believers.
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What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness. ROMANS 6:15-16
Quote
Your exactly right, there are obedient believers and there are disobedient believers.
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What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness. ROMANS 6:15-16