Repentance for Salvation?

[HankD]

I can call myself an astronaut. But if I have never been to space, I am nothing but a fraud. I can call myself a baker; but if I have never turned on an oven, mixed dough, and made the most basic of baked goods, I am doing nothing but playing pretend

Good example, however, if I just became a baker, I am going to have failures. I don't give up but keep on striving for perfection. Even at that I will have an occassional flop. That is much different than a pretender and I agree that some or even many church(es) have become infiltrated with those who "talk the talk" but don't consistently "walk the walk" (Monday through Saturday). Even at that I believe it is possible that there may be true children of God among them.

I keep thinking of the "shibboleth" passage when there are these pronouncements made concerning who is saved and who is not:

Judges 12

4 Then Jephthah gathered together all the men of Gilead, and fought with Ephraim: and the men of Gilead smote Ephraim, because they said, Ye Gileadites are fugitives of Ephraim among the Ephraimites, and among the Manassites.
5 And the Gileadites took the passages of Jordan before the Ephraimites: and it was so, that when those Ephraimites which were escaped said, Let me go over; that the men of Gilead said unto him, Art thou an Ephraimite? If he said, Nay;
6 Then said they unto him, Say now Shibboleth: and he said Sibboleth: for he could not frame to pronounce it right. Then they took him, and slew him at the passages of Jordan: and there fell at that time of the Ephraimites forty and two thousand.​

Here we have the people of God, brethren, slaughtering each other because of a semantic disconnect. Though this is an infallible and innerrant historical record of Israel/Judah's Civil War, it is simultaneoulsy (IMO) a metaphor of many of these present day disputes.

James 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?​

1 Peter 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.​

While it is true that that we must keep the local church as sanitized from sin as possible, I believe that at least some promoters of the LS doctrine take the easy way out and exclude many brethren who are in need of the advocacy of Christ:

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.​

Consistant obedience to the word is a sign of maturity.

For babes in Christ and for those who stumble there is an accountability and duty not of the offender but upon those who are "spritual" and it's a duty of restoration not exclusion :

Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.​

Admittedly, exclusion sometimes becomes necessary but it is the last choice not the first.

HankD

 

[Havensdad]

I agree with what you wrote there Havensdad, if a man says he loves his wife but constantly cheats he is a liar. I still see it a little differently than you. The passage in Matthew 7 is very interesting.
{Snipped}

We all know verses 21-23 where people profess to know and follow Christ, but Jesus said he never knew them. But verses 24-27 are connected to this by the word "therefore". In verse 24 Jesus says those that hear his sayings and doeth them shall be like a wise man who built his house on a rock.

Is Jesus talking about works here? I don't think so. He is talking about the foundation of a house. The foundation supports the house. Jesus is our foundation, it is he that saves us and supports us when we trust on him.

Those in verses 21-22 were doing works, this was their claim to salvation. But they lacked the foundation, Jesus.

I disagree with your assessment on these passages. The people who were claiming access in Chapter 7 had not done works, per se: they had performed miracles. They did many mighty "miracles" in the name of Christ, including casting out demons.

Jesus' charge against them, was indeed that they did not have a foundation, i.e. faith in Christ. But we see very clearly the reason that this claim could be laid against them. Jesus said "Depart from me, lawless ones (antinomians)" or "those who have no law." Jesus' point in these passages was that professions of faith (They called him "Lord, Lord"...this doubling of terms is a Hebrew's method of emphasis), even when accompanied by miraculous signs, are meaningless if they are not accompanied by an attitude of obedience to the Lord you claim to have.

When the people came to Jesus and asked what works they should do to work the works of God, Jesus told them one thing, to believe on him.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;

An incomplete faith does not save. This is also the point of Matthew 7. "belief" is a really poor translation of that Hebrew word. The word conveys much more than intellectual acknowledgment. It is akin to a man hanging by the tips of his fingers from a cliff; he must let go, and place his hand in that of his rescuer, having faith that his rescuer can and will save him. That faith requires not only taking the hand: the man must first let go of what he is already holding onto.

Reforming your life does not save you. You can turn from sins, you can read the bible everyday and go to church everytime the door is open, but unless you trust on Christ to save you from your sins they will not do you a bit of good. You must have Jesus as your foundation, always depending on him and not ourselves.

Nor will saying you trust in Jesus, while proving otherwise with your actions, do you any good. A person must turn from his former master (sin/the world) in order to turn in faith to the new one. Jesus said very clearly "no man can serve two masters."

When you accept Christ, the Holy Spirit comes into you, you are a new creature. A person who has accepted Christ should have a new will to obey Jesus. This should come naturally, not something you have to tell yourself to do. I know for myself that I do not enjoy sin at all, it makes me very uncomfortable and unhappy. Many things that others enjoy I do not. I still sin, but I do like it when I do. This is the change that the Holy Spirit itself makes in the heart of a believer.

Accepting Christ is not just a nod of the head. It is a turning; and this turning is not just turning to Christ. It is simultaneously turning from the world, Satan, and sin.

 

[Winman]

We are closer in agreement than you think. I agree we should be doers of the word and not hearers only deceiving ourselves (James 1:22)

But you have to be careful. Obeying God's word is not where I get my assurance of salvation. Truth be told, if I based my assurance of salvation on my behaviour, I would be very worried.

My assurance for salvation comes by trusting God's word alone.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The scriptures say that whosoever calls upon the Lord shall be saved. I know I did that, I sincerely prayed and asked Jesus to forgive me and save me from my sins. Jesus said that whoever comes to him shall in no wise be cast out. I know I came to Jesus for forgiveness.

Years ago I had a good book by Curtis Hutson from the Sword of the Lord. He said that if he was not saved then God would lose more than him. If he died and went to hell, he would lose his soul, but God would lose his integrity.

I agree with that. The only way I cannot be saved is if Jesus is a liar. He gave his word to me, and I am depending 100% on his word. I am not depending on my behaviour.

My salvation is not dependent upon my faithfulness, it is dependent on Jesus's faithfulness. And I am glad it is that way, I know for a fact I cannot always be depended upon. But I can fully rely and depend on Jesus as he never fails.

If a person truly comes to Jesus in his heart, admitting he is a sinner and asking for forgiveness, that person is saved whether they appear to be so or not. Man can only see the outward appearance, God sees the heart.

Calvinists and Doctrines of Gracers cannot have the assurance I have from God's word. They do not believe they can call on Jesus for salvation or come to him. I do not worry about man's doctrine, when Jesus said "come unto me" I came. Jesus is not going to condemn any man who obeys his command and comes to him, I don't care what John Calvin or any other man says.

 

[olegig]

This is fundamental. Repentance and faith is not just words. And this is how some would like to style it. A profession of faith is absolutely without merit, unless the actions of that person show it to be a true faith. Saying Jesus is Lord, or savior, is worthless, unless one truly believes in Christ, trusts in Christ, and therefore, follows Christ.

Appears to me as yet another one of those conundrums that rears its head when we mix the kingdom gospel with the gospel of grace.

I can call myself an astronaut. But if I have never been to space, I am nothing but a fraud. I can call myself a baker; but if I have never turned on an oven, mixed dough, and made the most basic of baked goods, I am doing nothing but playing pretend.

I too see a lot of pretending going on in this world.

 

[Havensdad]

Appears to me as yet another one of those conundrums that rears its head when we mix the kingdom gospel with the gospel of grace.

There is only one gospel. Paul preached the Gospel of the kingdom of God (Acts 28). This was the exact same gospel that Jesus, and the other apostles preached, which is stated by Paul himself. He said the gospels were the same (1 Corinithian 15).

Paul said if anyone preached a gospel other than the one he preached (such as Acts 15, where he tells the people that the good news, is that they should turn from their former ways, unto a living God), that they were CONDEMNED TO HELL (Galatians 1:8-9).

Sounds like you might be another victim of the Two Gospel Heresy.

 

[olegig]

There is only one gospel. Paul preached the Gospel of the kingdom of God (Acts 28). This was the exact same gospel that Jesus, and the other apostles preached, which is stated by Paul himself. He said the gospels were the same (1 Corinithian 15).

Paul said if anyone preached a gospel other than the one he preached (such as Acts 15, where he tells the people that the good news, is that they should turn from their former ways, unto a living God), that they were CONDEMNED TO HELL (Galatians 1:8-9).

Sounds like you might be another victim of the Two Gospel Heresy.

Yelp, seems to be a lot of victimizing going on lately. Why I even understand there might be some baptist churches adding confessional booths.

 

[Winman]

Doesn't happen often, but I am in agreement with Havensdad here, there is only one gospel. The gospel that Jesus and John the Baptist preached is the exact same gospel Paul preached, and the scriptures say that.

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Paul also confirmed that the same gospel he preached was the same gospel preached to Abraham.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

There is only one gospel. The gospel of the kingdom, and the gospel of grace are one and the same.

 

[olegig]

There is only one gospel. The gospel of the kingdom, and the gospel of grace are one and the same.

Tell you what Winman, I will agree with you if you only will show where anyone taught before revealed through Paul the good news of the Body as the Bride of Christ, the indwelling Holy Spirit as earnest of salvation, the circumcision made without hands, the total free gift of salvation made available by the Faith of Christ, etc,,,all the mysteries.

How could Jesus Himself have taught the power of the resurrection before it happened?
I will tell you........
The only way one can feel the power of the resurrection was present before it happened is if one feels the power of the resurrection itself was placed on a select few before the foundation of the world.

Calvinist are some of the first (along with the romanist) to deny the difference between the kingdom gospel and the gospel of grace because it denotes a difference. They feel there cannot be a difference because everything was set in stone before the foundation of the world.

 

[Winman]

My daughter has a piano recital, but I will be back in a few hours. I will show you scripture that shows the gospel of the kingdom is no different from the gospel Paul preached. I have spent much time debating with dispensationalists in the past, I have plenty of scripture to show you.

 

[Havensdad]

Tell you what Winman, I will agree with you if you only will show where anyone taught before revealed through Paul the good news of the Body as the Bride of Christ, the indwelling Holy Spirit as earnest of salvation, the circumcision made without hands, the total free gift of salvation made available by the Faith of Christ, etc,,,all the mysteries.

LOL. By Your logic, Jesus was not God until the New testament revealed Him to be so. Present reality is not determined by man's knowledge of it.

Paul said point blank, that the Gospel that he preached, was the same one everyone else preached. You deny the innerancy of scripture to say otherwise.

How could Jesus Himself have taught the power of the resurrection before it happened?
I will tell you........
The only way one can feel the power of the resurrection was present before it happened is if one feels the power of the resurrection itself was placed on a select few before the foundation of the world.

Calvinist are some of the first (along with the romanist) to deny the difference between the kingdom gospel and the gospel of grace because it denotes a difference. They feel there cannot be a difference because everything was set in stone before the foundation of the world.

LOL. What a red herring this is! MOST non Calvinist Christians do not believe as you say. In my Doctrine class, taught by Elmer Towns (a decided non-Calvinist!) he denies the two Gospel heresy, stating that "No, there is only one gospel." This, in spite of the fact of his heavy dispensationalism.

 

[Winman]

Well, any Calvinist or Doctrine of Gracer here will tell you I am not a Calvinist (if they had a picture of me I'm sure they would use it for a dartboard), but I do not believe in multiple gospels. I do believe in dispensationalism to an extent, believing God has dealt with men differently at different times.

I don't have time to present much tonight, but I will say this, Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom as I'm sure you will agree. But did this gospel apply to the Jews only? No.

Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

So, was the gospel of the kingdom for the Jews only? No, it was to be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations.

Dispensationalists teach that the apostles were teaching if Israel accepted Christ, Jesus would restore the kingdom at that time. But the scriptures easily show this is not the case.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

It doesn't get any clearer than this, the disciples asked Jesus directly if he would restore the kingdom to Israel "at this time". But Jesus answered and said it was not for them to know the "times" (plural) or "seasons" (plural) which the Father hath put in his own power.

So, it was impossible that Peter was preaching that the kingdom would be restored if the Jews accepted Jesus as Peter did not know this.

And look what Peter did tell the Jews concerning Jesus's return.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Notice here that Peter said the heavens must receive Jesus until the "times" (plural) of restitution of all things.

Now you are a dispensationalist, how can you overlook both Jesus and Peter speaking of "times"?

So, Peter was not preaching the immediate return of Jesus to restore the kingdom if the Jews received Christ, he said that at least two ages or times must take place first. I personally believe this is the church age or times of the Gentiles and the tribulation or time of Jacob's trouble. Some disagree on this. There could possibly be three times as "times of the Gentiles" implies at least two times plus the "time of Jacob's trouble".

But either way, Peter was absolutely not preaching the immediate restoration of the kingdom if the Jews accepted Christ as many dispensationalists teach.

More later.

 

[kyredneck]

....(if they had a picture of me I'm sure they would use it for a dartboard......

....naw, I wouldn't do that to ya; depends though, I might put it out in the lettuce bed to keep the rabbits out.......

 

[olegig]

More later.

Winman, I appreciate your attitude in this and have no doubt a discussion with you on this topic would be interesting and time well spent; however this is not the place to do it.

I would certainly have to argue that there is a difference in scripture, but the belief that the gospel of grace is more than the kingdom gospel has already been branded heresy on this thread.

I have already been given private warning of heresy for bringing to light the truth as I see it of other scriptural passages; so I most likely will be spending my time on another board where there is more confidence in core beliefs and therefore much more friendly to all topics of discussions.

But thanks for the friendly offer anyway.

olegig

 

[kyredneck]

....I most likely will be spending my time on another board where there is more confidence in core beliefs and therefore much more friendly to all topics of discussions.....olegig

.......just don't go away mad olegig.........

 

[olegig]

Paul said if anyone preached a gospel other than the one he preached (such as Acts 15, where he tells the people that the good news, is that they should turn from their former ways, unto a living God), that they were CONDEMNED TO HELL (Galatians 1:8-9).

Yes he did, and that is why one should be very sure one is preaching the same gospel Paul was preaching.

Sounds like you might be another victim of the Two Gospel Heresy.

One can google about any theology and find those who disagree with said theology will term it "heresy".
I agree there is much victimizing going on in the world; so one must search the scriptures to discover the truth.
Let us do a little comparison here.

Jesus said in person before the cross:
Matthew 6:14 (King James Version)
14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Jesus said through Paul after the cross:
Ephesians 4:32 (King James Version)
32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Before the cross one had to forgive others in order to be forgiven.
After the cross one should forgive others because God has already forgiven you.

This is but one difference in what some call a "two gospel heresy" even though it is scripturally based.

Another comparison:
--Some teach when God sees folks drowning He throws out the life line to a select group and leaves the rest to death.
--While others teach God throws out the life line to all and saves all who grab the line.

I have confidence in the good reader that they can discern which is false teaching (heresy).

 

[Havensdad]

Jesus said in person before the cross:
Matthew 6:14 (King James Version)
14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Translation: A Christian will forgive others. If you do not have a forgiving spirit, how can you possibly be a Christian? How could you possibly believe that Christ died in order that your sins be forgiven, yet you are hard and callous to others?

Jesus said through Paul after the cross:
Ephesians 4:32 (King James Version)
32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Ahhh, but Paul also said...

1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

So, according to YOUR logic, Paul has just stated that in order to get to heaven, one must keep from doing all the things stated above.

Paul also said...

Act 14:15 "Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men, of like nature with you, and we bring you good news, that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all that is in them.

So, these people have to turn from their sin and idolatry, in order to turn to Christ...

Before the cross one had to forgive others in order to be forgiven.
After the cross one should forgive others because God has already forgiven you.

This is works righteous heresy. Paul stated clearly that all the way back to Abraham, people have always been saved through faith, not works....

Rom 4:9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness.

Rom 4:13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.

Which is the same thing that James said: and even showed how works and faith are related, even now. Faith saves, and produces works, or to put it a better way, we are saved by a "working kind of faith"

Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

This is but one difference in what some call a "two gospel heresy" even though it is scripturally based.

It has absolutely no basis in scripture, and the one who teaches it is condemned by Paul as Anathema (condemned to Hell).

Another comparison:
--Some teach when God sees folks drowning He throws out the life line to a select group and leaves the rest to death.
--While others teach God throws out the life line to all and saves all who grab the line.

I have confidence in the good reader that they can discern which is false teaching (heresy).

I believe they can. Work righteousness is heresy. Paul said of the Gospel that Jesus and Peter preached that...

"1Co 15:11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed. "

Paul preached the same Gospel as Jesus, and Peter, and everyone else.

One Gospel. Saved by Grace through faith: from Adam, to now.

 

[kyredneck]

...One Gospel. Saved by Grace through faith: from Adam, to now.

Amen Brother. From Adam till now by Grace through faith. Olegig has a problem grasping that 'lil precept. He believes the OT Saints were saved from hell by keeping the law.

 

[olegig]

Look, you guys feel like everything was set in stone in eternity past, before the foundation of the world.
So therefore you interpret things in that light.

I believe things happen in real time dependant upon the free will choices man makes.

Its like me saying apples are red, and you counter with the argument that NO! oranges are orange.

When folks don't even agree on how folks are saved, any discussion on the when or who is meaningless.

Its like the old adage about mud-wresting pigs.....Its not long before one realizes the pigs enjoy it.

 

[Havensdad]

Look, you guys feel like everything was set in stone in eternity past, before the foundation of the world.
So therefore you interpret things in that light.

I believe things happen in real time dependant upon the free will choices man makes.

Its like me saying apples are red, and you counter with the argument that NO! oranges are orange.

When folks don't even agree on how folks are saved, any discussion on the when or who is meaningless.

Its like the old adage about mud-wresting pigs.....Its not long before one realizes the pigs enjoy it.

Arminian dispensationalists, by and large, disagree with you as well. You simply cannot make ANY support for this argument. This is a completely separate issue.

Regardless scripture specifically refutes you. Paul said the Gospel he preached, was the same that was preached by Jesus, Peter, and the apostles (and that any other position is damnable heresy), regardless whether you believe in Arminian or Calvinist soteriology.

Tell me, are you an open theist as well? Open theism is heresy also.

 

[MB]

Havensdad;
Repentance is a willing change. It's submission. It's surrender. It's giving up the rebellion. There is no Salvation with out repentance. A very necessary change of mind about our rebellion against God.
MB