Repentance needed for Salvation?

This verse isn't aimed at anyone, as I haven't even read the whole thread, but this verse is rather plain.

The Bible mixes belief with repentance quite often, and you cannot separate the two and still have true, genuine belief.

"Believing" in Christ includes repentence, because when you believe truly in Christ, you recognize that He is holy, and therefore, you want to be like Him.

Here's a good verse for Christians,

 

gek, Marcia and Straight- Y'all can ride a battleship, I guess, if'n ya' want. I'll stay in the ark, ya' know, the one where the LORD shut 'em in.

Ed

 

I found this on the Arlington Baptist College website from their statement of faith. I think it speaks pretty well to the subject at hand.

SECTION 12. OF REPENTANCE AND FAITH


We believe that Repentance and Faith are solemn obligations, and also inseparable graces, wrought in our souls by the quickening Spirit of God; thereby, being deeply convicted of our guilt, danger, helplessness, and of the way of salvation by Christ, we turn to God with unfeigned contrition, confession, and supplication for mercy; at the same time heartily receiving the Lord Jesus Christ and openly confessing Him as our only and all-sufficient Saviour.


Acts 20:21; Mark 1:15; Acts 2:37-38; Luke 18:13; Rom. 10:13; Psa. 51:1-4; Psa. 51:7; Isa. 55:6-7; Luke 12:8; Rom. 10:9-11.

 

And this is exactly right. J. has hit the nail absolutely with his head. The confusion and attempted admixing of a "free salvation" that is ABSOLUTELY FREE! ©, and one's 'following in discipleship' as a disciple, which can and may well cost you everything to and including your life, a la Stephen and James the Great in Acts, is the source of much confusion, Biblically, today. They are not one and the same.

Ed

 

That is absolutely right, but we have to let the original context of those verses stand. The original context of those verse is not eternal salvation, but the kingdom message. Eternal salvation and kingdom salvation are not the same thing.

Eternal salvation is based ONLY on the works of Christ, not ours. Grace is not repentance and repentance is not grace. Repentance is a work of our own based on information that is given to us by the Holy Spirit, but it is still a work of our own nonetheless and therefore would violate Acts 16:30-31, Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 4 if it were to be involved in eternal salvation.

 

Will Christ save someone from their sin without saving them from their old life and the power those sins have over their lives?

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

confess (homologeo) = to commit oneself to do someth. for someone, promise, assure (BDAG Lexicon)

This statment below isn't aimed at anyone, but towards an teaching I often contend with among independent Baptist (I am an Independent Baptist myself)
Please don't bring the 1-2-3-repeat-after-me-salvation in here. It isn't just mental acknowledgement of who Christ is, but an experience of conviction of sin and then running to Christ for salvation.

I used to go on visitation with a preacher until one time he basically forced a 4 year old to repeat a prayer to be saved, and the whole time she was complaining, saying she didn't want to and that she wanted to go to bed.

 

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

From Abel to Paul, all have been saved by the same grace. Some men looked to the cross and we now look back to the cross, and to the resurrection of Christ from the grave!

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

 

Couple of things that I see with this statement of faith. Repentance and faith are not grace. Repentance is something we do and faith is something we believe. Grace is God doing for man what He requires of man and then giving him credit as if he did it himself.

God doesn't change our mind we do, so repentance is not grace, because it is not God doing it. Same with faith. We are the ones that believe. God doesn't believe for us. Therefore faith is not grace. Grace is grace and grace alone.

These things are not wrought in our souls according to Scripture as it is the spirit that is made alive at the moment we believe not the soul. We are spiritually dead and made spiritually alive. The salvation of the soul comes ONLY AFTER the moment of eternal salvation.

The salvation of the soul (progressive sanctification as being discussed in another thread) can only take place after the spirit is made alive, because the saving of the soul has to do with dying to self and allowing the Holy Spirit to live out the manifested life of Christ in our members. We can only do this if we are spiritually alive, because discipleship has to do with understanding a spiritual message and that can not be done by spiritually dead people.

 

Again context, context, context. Paul is speaking to "saved" individuals here. So if these people are saved why would they need to confess with their mout the Lord Jesus and beleive in His resurrection to be saved if they are already saved?

The answer is they don't, because eternal salvation is not in view here. This is speaking of confessing and believing in the resurrection which have to do with discipleship and believing that Christ is alive and now ministering as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary, which has to do with a "saved" people and their continual cleansing of sin.

Eternal salvation is not in view here.

 

Amen! Anyone that comes to an eternal salvation comes by the grace of God!

This part is where we are going to disagree. I don't see any evidence that men/women/children looked forward to the cross. I don't see any evidence that they were told to believe in the coming cross.

Abraham was saved by believing God in regard to His promise of an earthly and heavenly seed (Genesis 15).

The children of Israel were saved by believing what God said about killing a lamb and spreading the blood (Exodus 12).

Everyone is saved by grace through faith, but it's the faith part that has varied from dispensation to dispensation.

 

The context of Romans 10?

Paul was sorrowing over the lost condition of the majority of Israel, who were trying to establish their own righteousness and were disregarding Christ.

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

 

J., I agree basically agree and understand what you are saying, here. Especially when you point out that Biblically, faith and repentance are not grace. However, one dictionary definition for 'grace' is "a virtue coming from God". In this sense, the 'statement of faith' may well be correct, but also can at the same time be a source of confusion, which too often it is. Guess, like some commentaries, the Bible can shed a lot of light on statements of faith, as well. :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

Might it be more accurate to maybe say that the 'manifestation of' "the faith part" has varied? Just askin'.

Ed

 

Not sure. You are asking a very simple minded person Doesn't take much to get my brain hurting.

Let me try to clarify what I meant and see if we are saying the same thing.

Everyone is saved by grace through faith, but in various dispensations people were asked to believe different things. Abraham was asked to believe God in regard to a promise of a seed.

Israel was told to believe God in regard to saying a pascal lamb and then spreading the blood over their door posts.

We are asked today to believe in The Pascal Lamb that died and shed His blood on our behalf. And we appropriate that blood through faith.

Hope that clarifies.

 

Exactly correct. But what is lost? Christendom today has equated "lost" with "unsaved."

According to what I'm seeing in Scripture "unsaved" and "lost" are not the same thing. In order for something to be "lost" it first has to be in the possession of the owner, meaning Israel was lost because they were already God's possession, but had strayed.

They weren't "unsaved" they were "lost."

Another reason we can tell that Israel was not "unsaved" is because they were delivered a "spiritual" message and expected to respond. If they were spiritually dead "unsaved" then they wouldn't have even been able to understand the message let alone accept or reject the message. But Israel was spiritually alive and were in a position to accept or reject the message of the kingdom.

They rejected the message of the kingdom, and ultimately that offer was taken away from the nation of Israel and given to a new nation, a nation that would produce the fruit. This nation was the one new man in Christ - Christians.

But in order for Gentiles to be in a position to accept or reject the offer made to Israel Gentiles had to be spiritually alive. That meant they had to believe in the death and shed blood of Jesus, the Lamb of God for the remission of their sins. Once someone believes this then the Holy Spirit breathes life into the dead spirit and it becomes alive and now in a position to understand and accept or reject the message that was given to Israel. The message Israel rejected was not eternal salvation, but rather the kingdom of heaven (in Matthew this is how it is referred, but it should literally read the kingdom of the heavens), and this phrase also appears in John chapter 3 in the Aleph text, but other places it is referred to as the kingdom of God.

The kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God is speaking of the same thing, but this is not eternity, but rather the 1,000-year reign of Christ.

If you are interested in study more in depth PM me and I can send you some resource material.

 

Israel is and was lost and on their way to hell.

You are making unscriptural distinctions. Lost is on your way to hell, unsaved is on your way to hell. Saved is on your way to heaven.

Put rather simple but true.

And resource material, I have 66 books of resource material, and I don't have to worry about some spurious interpolation in some random uncial text, payri, etc.

 

We must have had the same pastor.

 

Thankfully it wasn't my pastor that did that. I cannot stand people going on visitation, getting people to say a prayer, etc. just to write it down on a piece of paper to flaunt in front of other people.

I am for personal evangelism, though I don't really go with a group anymore.

 

Here's one for the ages: A man who was determined to be the "best" soul-winner (whatever that is) once told a group of boys that were refusing to be baptized (after they had been tricked into going to the changing rooms) that they would "go to hell" if they did not get baptized. Upon informing the pastor of this travesty, he merely told me that he wished he had more people around with his "zeal" for souls.

 

Well you are more than welcome to continue to believe that, but it's not Scriptural, and it's not supported by Scripture.

Can you please show both of those with Scripture? I can't find it in either case.