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Repentance
- Thread starter Heavenly Pilgrim
- Start date
Have you considered that conscience acts as an independent agent without the Holy Spirit in regard to those things your conscience judges as sin? For example, a heathen in deep dark Africa may think it is ok to rape the wife of a man next door who is no kin to him but it is sin to rape any of the married women in his own family clan???
I do not believe the conscience acts as an independent agent without the Holy Spirit. When the conscience is healthy and in working order I believe it is working with the Holy Spirit. It can be rendered disabled through the depravity of sin and God can render it useless if He so desires.
The Sovereinty of God and the freewill of man does not have to conflict with one another as Calvinist presume. Just let the scriptures speak for themselves and do not try to imagine that you must make sense of all things. We are not God!
So you believe the conscience in man accompanies the Holy Spirit in all of its condemnation by unregenerate men? Therefore the Spirit is the cause of conviction of the man who rapes the married women outside his own family but convicts him when and if he rapes married women inside his family? Tribes in Africa feel it is right to pillage, rape and kill other tribes but not among those within their own tribe and so the Holy Spirit is at work with the conscience when they pillage and rape and kill within their own tribe but not when they pillage and rape and kill the other tribe???????
Could you provide your article source concerning these African tribes traditions so I may read it and then give you an answer?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Steaver, a glaring error in Biblicist's thinking is, just because some act 'as if though' they have no conscience, is not evidence they have no conscience or that they are devoid of the influences of the Holy Spirit. Even though certain acts of evil may be permitted within some evil person or tribe, it is clear they do not desire the same to happen to them. That is living proof even the heathen have a God instilled conscience to one degree or another, yet are not acting in accordance to it, therefore are without excuse.
You are correct in that the Holy Spirit is working in conjunction with man's conscience, even in the conscience of the heathen and sinful men that have learned to act 'as if though' they have no conscience at times.
You are correct in that the Holy Spirit is working in conjunction with man's conscience, even in the conscience of the heathen and sinful men that have learned to act 'as if though' they have no conscience at times.
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
I believe Scripture is clear, repent or perish. That is the Word of God. What is amazing to me is the lack of consideration some seem to be giving to clear understandable logic.
If repentance follows salvation as presumed by some, and for what ever reason it is not enjoined in God's eyes, they would be lost according to Scripture. Now we know how sacred OSAS is to many on this list, so why is it that they are not thinking of the ramifications of their position on repentance?
If one is saved antecedent to repentance, repentance has nothing to do with salvation period. Yet Scripture states repentance is required, without which all shall perish. This sets up the absurd position for those holding to OSAS and believing repentance comes subsequent to salvation. It would be entirely possible that one could loose their salvation by not carrying out the condition God mandated of repentance, subsequent to salvation, without which one will perish in the end.
I believe it is impossible for any to hold to the view of OSAS and yet say that repentance is something subsequent to salvation, due to the fact that would allow one to be saved eternally that God says will perish if they are not found to be in a repentant state subsequent to salvation. Sinning everyday would be the clearest indication I could think of that one has not repented of their sins. No one can be said to be repentant of their sins that is continuing daily to live in and for their sins.
That does not preclude that once saved one could not sin, but it would preclude the notion that one can continue past such sin in unbelief, to the end of life, failing to sincerely repent as God says all must do or perish in the end.
If repentance follows salvation as presumed by some, and for what ever reason it is not enjoined in God's eyes, they would be lost according to Scripture. Now we know how sacred OSAS is to many on this list, so why is it that they are not thinking of the ramifications of their position on repentance?
If one is saved antecedent to repentance, repentance has nothing to do with salvation period. Yet Scripture states repentance is required, without which all shall perish. This sets up the absurd position for those holding to OSAS and believing repentance comes subsequent to salvation. It would be entirely possible that one could loose their salvation by not carrying out the condition God mandated of repentance, subsequent to salvation, without which one will perish in the end.
I believe it is impossible for any to hold to the view of OSAS and yet say that repentance is something subsequent to salvation, due to the fact that would allow one to be saved eternally that God says will perish if they are not found to be in a repentant state subsequent to salvation. Sinning everyday would be the clearest indication I could think of that one has not repented of their sins. No one can be said to be repentant of their sins that is continuing daily to live in and for their sins.
That does not preclude that once saved one could not sin, but it would preclude the notion that one can continue past such sin in unbelief, to the end of life, failing to sincerely repent as God says all must do or perish in the end.
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Then Paul and Silas lied to the jailer.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Ann, Jesus does not lie, and the absence of the word 'repentance' in some instances, when not every word is recorded by any means, does not preclude the straight forward remarks by our Lord, "Unless ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." Notice carefully how many times these words are recorded. One would do well to heed the words of our Lord and carefully fulfill the condition God has mandated to inherit eternal life.
Repentance had to be enjoined in the OT for any sacrifice to atone, was preached by John the Baptist and the apostles, and by our Lord. The naysayers of the importance and requirement by God to repent of ones sins or perish, will not deter a Holy and Just God in fulfilling His promises if one refuses to obey.
Repentance had to be enjoined in the OT for any sacrifice to atone, was preached by John the Baptist and the apostles, and by our Lord. The naysayers of the importance and requirement by God to repent of ones sins or perish, will not deter a Holy and Just God in fulfilling His promises if one refuses to obey.
No, a distorted observation. First, I never denied any human is without conscience as implied in his words "is not evidence they have no conscience." That is his pure imagination or straw man assumption.
Second, please cite book chapter and verse where it explictly and clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit ALWAYS works with every act of conscience?
Third, in admitting that some do horrible things without any conviction of conscience is proof the Holy Spirit does not work in every act of conscience.
Fourth, the fact they do not want it done to themselves proves hypocrisy not a Spirit directed conscience.
Fred's Wife
Member
Really?
The conversion of the Philippian jailor doesn't begin at Acts 16:31...the context begins at verse 23 and goes through verse 34. There were several events that led up to the Philippian jailor asking Paul and Silas "what must I do to be saved?"
Acts 16:23 And when they had laid many stripes upon them, they cast them into prison, charging the jailor to keep them safely:
Acts 16:24 Who, having received such a charge, thrust them into the inner prison, and made their feet fast in the stocks.
Acts 16:25 And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.
Acts 16:26 And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed.
Acts 16:27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
Acts 16:28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
Acts 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Acts 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Acts 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
Acts 16:34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.
At Philippi there was a jailor who was responsible for the safety of the prisoners. He thought some had escaped and was about to destroy himself, when Paul stopped him. (vs. 23-28)
Why do you think that the jailor would come "trembling and fall down before Paul and Silas? Do you think that perhaps that "trembling" jailor was a bit overwhelmed that Paul and Silas would be singing praises to God even after they had been beaten and thrown into stocks in that dark and cold prison? Perhaps the jailor was "moved" by the presence of God in that jail...and for this reason "fell down before Paul and Silas" and asked them "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" (vs. 31) That, in my opinion is repentance towards God. After Paul and Silas "spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house" (vs. 32), the jailor, and his house "believed" and were baptized.
So Paul and Silas didn't "lie" to the jailor.
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
HP: Biblicist, are the heathen you speak of Gentiles? Who writes the law upon their heart if not the Holy Spirit?
Say what you will, but God says they are without excuse.
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
HP: Biblicist, are the heathen you speak of Gentiles? Who writes the law upon their heart if not the Holy Spirit?
Say what you will, but God says they are without excuse.
His problem is that there is no such thing as gospel repentance apart from gospel faith as they are inseparable. Gospel repentance is turning FROM sin BY turning TO the solution for sin - faith in Christ.
The command to preach the gospel and call to believe it in Mark 16:15-16 is described as preaching "repentance" in Luke 24:47 because they are inseparable and simeltaneous in action.
I don't see anything about being "sorry for his sins" in here and I don't see Paul and Silas telling him that he must be sorry for his sins. So then they lied.
Fred's Wife
Member
Just because you didn't see "sorry for his sins" doesn't mean that the context didn't imply that the jailor had a repentent heart.
Scripture never says that Paul and Silas told the jailor to be sorry for his sins...all they told him to do was "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ doesn't happen in a vacuum. What do you think happened to cause the jailor to ask Paul and Silas the question, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" in the first place? And why would Paul and Silas answer the jailor in the manner they did?
Paul and Silas did not lie to the jailor.
Think about it. :smilewinkgrin:
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Placing repentance subsequent to salvation completely destroys the words of Christ concerning repentance: :"Unless ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."
If repentance is only made possible subsequent to salvation and one cannot fall from grace due to refusal to repent, sin, or neglect once having been saved, all meaning of the words of Christ concerning repentance are made of no effect by the theological traditions of men.
Placing repentance subsequent to salvation completely destroys the words of Christ concerning repentance: :"Unless ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."
If repentance is only made possible subsequent to salvation and one cannot fall from grace due to refusal to repent, sin, or neglect once having been saved, all meaning of the words of Christ concerning repentance are made of no effect by the theological traditions of men.
Romans 2:14-15 only proves they have a conscience. It does not prove the Holy Spirit works in connection with every act of conscience. The fact that you admit that the heathen in good conscience can kill, rape and pillage another tribe but not their own proves the Holy Spirit does not work with every act of conscience.
First, the term "salvation" is too broad as it includes election to glorification. Such a broad term gives you the space to make your case. We are speaking of those aspects of salvation dealing with regeneration and conversion. Gospel Repentance is part of conversion the other part being gospel faith.
Where there is gospel faith there is gospel repentance and where there is gospel repentance there is gospe faith as they are inseparable. Repentance in essence is turning FROM sin but it is impossible to turn from sin apart from turning TO righteousness or else you are still in your sins. The righteousness you turn to is found in the person and work of Christ which is the object of faith proclaimed by the gospel. Faith merely RECIEVES what Christ has already finished and RESTS upon the righteousness of Christ as its only hope of salvation. Hence, gospel faith is PASSIVE not ACTIVE as there is nothing the sinner can add to the righteousness of Christ.
However, we are not speaking of gospel conversion but dealing with the CAUSE for man turning from sin to Christ. You claim the cause is found in man while we claim the cause is found in God's covenant work of grace. You claim the cause is free will but we claim the cause is found in the creative power of God manifested in a new heart which freely chooses to repent and believe the gospel.
Ezek. 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Philip. 2:13 For it is God who worketh in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure
John 15:6 .....without me YE CAN DO NOTHING
Jn. 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Rom. 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Bottom line we see the salvation of any sinner and all sinners as purely an act of Divine MERCY not having any basis in the sinner for merit and not a matter of divine justice.
Salvation is not too broad a term. Because God knows who would believe or not believe, that does not mean they are saved before they believe, or else why would the scriptures say, “He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance” 2 Peter 3:9. There is only one salvation. There is the time before Jesus saves someone, when one does not yet have salvation, and the time after Jesus saves someone. Before Jesus saves us, we must get Jesus’ words and obey them, and then God who knows our hearts will give of His Holy Spirit. See John 14:23; Acts 5:32; and Acts 15:8. That is the undisputable truth.
Faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:14. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11.
“Faith comes from hearing the word,” so how do you ever say that those who believe free will is saying it comes from inside them?
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? Romans 10:14. God made the plan for salvation first. Therefore, to claim free will comes from man is an argument without any basis in truth.
The power is in God coming in the flesh. The power is in the Word of God speaking to man, and then written down and sent to all so that we might believe. Romans 16:25-27 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him–to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.
We are hearing God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden, 1 Corinthians 2:7. The Bible says there is power in the cross, 1 Corinthians 1:17, and the message is one that saves, Acts 11:14. Again, faith comes from hearing God’s Powerful Word. The secret wisdom is revealed.
Nowhere does this scripture say God saves a person first then they believe, nor does it say God saves a person before they repent to make them repent.
This scripture does not say we cannot believe in God and repent before God saves us. No scripture anywhere in the Bible says that. Philippians 2:13 is about staying in the Lord.
John 15:6 is also about staying in the Lord.
Jesus had chosen the 12 Apostles to the Lamb. One of them was a betrayer. That scripture is about the 12 Apostles to the Lamb. God also chooses us when God who knows our hearts accepts us, after we obey. See John 14:23, Acts 15:8, and Acts 5:32.
This is about God allowing the Gentiles to be saved, even though they never had the works of the law and were at one time separate and without Christ.
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