Repentence and the elect

[J.D.]

Dr. K: "Two questions must be answered from the context of God's choosing:"

1. Who is it being chosen?

From the text: "brethren beloved of the Lord"

2. What is it they are being chosen for?

Again, from the text: "salvation".

Let me add a third question:

3. WHEN were they chosen?

Again, from the text: "from the beginning"


2 Thessalonians 2:13 (KJV) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The word "to" indicates a destination.
The word "through" indicates a path.
The destination is salvation, the path is sanctification and belief.

Where has God chosen to take his chosen ones? A: Salvation.

How will God get them there? A: through the sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

How did they get on the path? A: "he called you"

How were they called? A: "by our gospel"

If there is no Scriptural evidence for God choosing ANYONE in all of the OT books to be saved from condemnation to Hell (all of history up to the Gospels), why would anyone read something different into the NT books?

​

See JArthur's response above, and the following text might give someone a lot of reason to believe that God elects people to be delivered from condemnation.

Romans 8:33 (KJV) Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.




​

 

[J.D.]

After just glancing over some of what you stated in other posts I am glad to have not overlooked this post!

One doesn't become "The Elect" until salvation, we are "chosen" IN HIM, which designates a prior condition of all sinners as not in him before they were saved.

The reality is God is not a respector of persons in salvation by choosing only some to be saved, but does offer salvation and the space to repent to all men. Even one of the most hideous of sinners had the same chance, her name is Jezebel.

And what was Jezebel's choice? Since she was a hater of God, wasn't it against her nature to repent? Isn't it against anyone's fallen nature to repent? But what if God gave her a new nature - then she would repent, don't you think?

 

[The Archangel]

Good evening Salamander,

A few items before I begin in earnest. Thank you for the clarifications of what you were intending to say about Jezebel and the sheep and goats passage.

First, I did not intend to say that Revelation was not referring to the historical Jezebel. Certainly the passage refers to her. However, the "repentance" part of the passage is not referring to Jezebel but to the person living in rebellion. The passage is linking Jezebel and the rebellious person. The literary tool is called "Simile." The text is intending to say the rebellious person is like the historical Jezebel.

Also, the "Sheep and Goats" passage is not talking about nations but individuals.

Now, to the invisible and the visible church. Unfortunately, you have the concept wrong. I wrote:

I think you may have confused the visible and invisible church. Certainly non-believing church members (who were self-deceived and put on a good show for the rest of us) can be brought to true repentance and faith (thereby becoming part of the invisible church, the Universal Church). This process cannot work in reverse (which is to say a true member of the universal church cannot "progress" to be a "church member" since, biblically speaking, being a member of the local church assumes you are a true believer and are a member of the Universal Church).

A helpful way to think of this is the biblical illustration of wheat and tares. While still immature, wheat and tares look identical. It is not until the plants mature that they are distinguishable from one another. By that time it is impossible (or at least imprudent) to "weed" the wheat to get rid of the tares. So, when the time of harvest comes the wheat is taken and the tares are harvested and burned--because the tares are worthless.

Now, the visible church is the wheat and tares together while the invisible church is the wheat only. I would encourage you to look elsewhere to confirm what I have said.

Again, that would disannul the need for grace due to the supposed case they could never have actually sinned except God be responsible for their actions and a sinner too.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Could you please explain?

Israel was chosen individually after God changed his name from Jacob.

God chose Israel as the nation to give us the Scriptures. Plain and simple.

Actually, Israel was chosen in Abraham. Abraham was promised a nation who would eventually (after being slaves) inhabit the land of Canaan. So, really, God chose the Nation of Israel in His dealings with Abraham. Israel (Jacob) is simply a "confirmation" of the covenant already made with Abraham.

Also, I agree one of the reasons for God having a chosen people was to disseminate the Scriptures. However, there is much, much more to it than that.
Israel was to be a "Kingdom of Priests," etc.

You will have to go all the way back to Seth for the answer to that. The followers of God is where His seed is preserved thus known as the Remnant. Yet one more person has to be consulted according to their sacrifice in retrospect that Abel offered sacrifices after the example of the Lord.

I really don't get what you are trying to say. Again, please (for my sake) explain.

Thank you for your time and your help.

No problem. Thank you for the discussion.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Allan]

Hello Dr,

Take a look at this passage and tell me what you think...

I have stayed out of this thread because I found it amusing to read all the responses to one another (for once )

I am not the good Dr, but I will state James that your posted scripture has nothing to with eternal salvation that the Dr. is speaking of.

Your scripture is speaking about God's choosing of a nation, not specifically individuals to be His witnesses as you can see from the previous verse which speaks of all the other nations to bring forth their witnesses:

Isa 43:9 Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, [It is] truth.

The salvation spoken of in vs 12 is not eternal but teporal and in relation to God keeping the 'Nation' from being destroyed thereby being saved. This is why the NATION is His witness, and because they were His people they were to obey Him and is also why they are called His servant.

Isa 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when [there was] no strange [god] among you: therefore ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I [am] God.

Not to mention the beginning of the chapter declares this is TO ISRAEL the Nation.

Isa 43:1 ¶ But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called [thee] by thy name; thou [art] mine.

And I doubt very seriously you will contend that the whole nation of Israel was/is saved.

I know you have better scriptures than that one to give evidence of. It is just that that one did not convey what you were 'presumedly' claiming.

 

[Jarthur001]

I have stayed out of this thread because I found it amusing to read all the responses to one another (for once )

We agree.

I am not the good Dr, but I will state James that your posted scripture has nothing to with eternal salvation that the Dr. is speaking of.

It has been shown that one does not have to be a Doctor to know what they are talking about. However in this case Allan, you would be wrong. Allow me please.

Let me ask you this. Calvinist and non-Calvinist alike will agree that there is one must believe/ have faith in God's salvation's plan. Now I ask, going by this passage why were those that were chosen, chosen?

Nation are not "saved". Nations without people are land and water ways. Land and water ways, do not believe. People believe.

Your scripture is speaking about God's choosing of a nation, not specifically individuals to be His witnesses as you can see from the previous verse which speaks of all the other nations to bring forth their witnesses:

A nation without individuals?

You quoted this verse from the same chapter...

Isa 43:9 Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, [It is] truth

then you said this is what it means....

The salvation spoken of in vs 12 is not eternal but teporal and in relation to God keeping the 'Nation' from being destroyed thereby being saved. This is why the NATION is His witness, and because they were His people they were to obey Him and is also why they are called His servant.

What even is this talking about where all the nations are gathered?

Not to mention the beginning of the chapter declares this is TO ISRAEL the Nation.

Indeed. Gods chosen people. But did you notice there were people "in the beginning" not chosen? Yet...that is there too.

And I doubt very seriously you will contend that the whole nation of Israel was/is saved.

I believe the Bible if that is what you are asking.

Why were they chosen?
When are the nations gathered?
Will all of Israel be saved?

I rest my case.

I know you have better scriptures than that one to give evidence of. It is just that that one did not convey what you were 'presumedly' claiming

.
whatever do you mean Allan?

 

[Allan]

We agree.

Yes, sometimes we do

It has been shown that one does not have to be a Doctor to know what they are talking about. However in this case Allan, you would be wrong. Allow me please.

Be my guest :saint:

Let me ask you this. Calvinist and non-Calvinist alike will agree that there is one must believe/ have faith in God's salvation's plan. Now I ask, going by this passage why were those that were chosen, chosen?

His chosing them 'the Nation' (according to the passage in question) was that they might know, believe, and understand that He is the Lord. The Nation was chosen for the express purpose to be His witnesses in the world and to the world that HE IS THE LORD.

A nation without individuals?

That is not what I said.

What even is this talking about where all the nations are gathered?

If you are presuming it is at the end times, then you would be greatly mistaken.
This isn't at any particular time. It is God illistrating a point using the other Nations as objects by which to bring His point home. No other Nation can be likened to that of Israel with regard to God's favor.

Indeed. Gods chosen people. But did you notice there were people "in the beginning" not chosen? Yet...that is there too.

There are many of the chosen (Nation of Israel) who were not saved either. I can take you all through the OT and show you many, even some priests of God!

I believe the Bible if that is what you are asking.

I didn't ask that and you know it.

Why were they chosen?

To be His witnesses that He is the Lord

When are the nations gathered?

They weren't

Will all of Israel be saved?

Is the 'all' here implying that all Jews from Abraham till Christ's second coming will be will be saved? If so, The answer is No.

 

[The Archangel]

Hi Allan...it is good to "see" you again; I hope all is well with you and your family (I like the picture, by the way). I know that none of these things were addressed to me, so if I am stepping on your toes (or James' for that matter), I beg your forgiveness.

You wrote:

His choosing them 'the Nation' (according to the passage in question) was that they might know, believe, and understand that He is the Lord. The Nation was chosen for the express purpose to be His witnesses in the world and to the world that HE IS THE LORD.

This is an excellent statement, although I doubt I'll agree with everything as I think you mean it. (I hope that statement wasn't too confusing...my own statement is making my head spin...well it is almost 2:00 AM est).

So, I have to ask: Isn't knowing, believing, and understanding that YHWY, the God of the Israelites (The Supreme Lord of the universe) is Lord salvific in and of itself? Isn't that what we, as Christians, believe about Christ (in obvious addition to His dying on the cross)?

You also said:

There are many of the chosen (Nation of Israel) who were not saved either. I can take you all through the OT and show you many, even some priests of God!

I agree completely. But what about the ones that were saved? What about the ones in Elijah's time that "God left for Himself 7,000 who have not worshiped Baal" (paraphrase of 1 Kings 19:18)? Is that passage not an indication of how God works to preserve for Himself a faithful (key word) remnant?

These are questions that many non-Calvinists seem to trip over (well, ok, the last question fits that category) and I rarely if ever get a good answer.

Anyway, I'm fading and the sleep demon is attacking.

Many blessings and God's richest grace to you

The Archangel

 

[Allan]

Hi Allan...it is good to "see" you again; I hope all is well with you and your family (I like the picture, by the way). I know that none of these things were addressed to me, so if I am stepping on your toes (or James' for that matter), I beg your forgiveness.

Hello again Arch! No need brother. This is after all a 'debate board'

So, I have to ask: Isn't knowing, believing, and understanding that YHWY, the God of the Israelites (The Supreme Lord of the universe) is Lord salvific in and of itself? Isn't that what we, as Christians, believe about Christ (in obvious addition to His dying on the cross)?

Not necessarily. Satan believes but is not saved. I know bad example :laugh:
But if you look at Rom 1, even the unbeliever who turned the glory of the Lord into their own perversion had to know and understand in order to deny and pervert it.
King Ahab knew and understood about the God of Israel but that did not change the fact he did not care. What about Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron who offered strange fire before the Lord? Or how about the house of Eli which would not be purged with sacrifice or offering for ever? Did they not know, believe, and understand that He is the Lord but still chose to pervert the truth into unrighteousness? Another thing to remember, the believe spoken of here is not a reference to salvic belief but to an acknowledgment of that which became known.

I agree completely. But what about the ones that were saved? What about the ones in Elijah's time that "God left for Himself 7,000 who have not worshiped Baal" (paraphrase of 1 Kings 19:18)? Is that passage not an indication of how God works to preserve for Himself a faithful (key word) remnant?

I'm not disputing those who were saved nor that the Lord is able to keep those already His from falling. I am stating that not every person of the Nation of Israel (God's chosen people in the OT) is saved. The Nation was chosen or elected to and for a purpose. Yes, people within that Nation were saved. Sometimes a great multitude and sometime as few as 7001 (Let us not forget to include Elijah ) and possibly fewer still at other times.

These are questions that many non-Calvinists seem to trip over (well, ok, the last question fits that category) and I rarely if ever get a good answer.

Why? There is nothing to trip over, IMO.

 

[The Archangel]

Allan,

OK...the sleep demon hasn't overtaken me yet. I appreciate your response and yes, Satan was a bad example! I see what you are saying but I don't agree and I need to still formulate an adequate response.

Here is the crux of my question:

You wrote:

I'm not disputing those who were saved nor that the Lord is able to keep those already His from falling. I am stating that not every person of Israel is saved. The Nation was chosen or elected to and for a purpose. Yes, people within that Nation were saved. Sometimes a great multitude and sometime as few as 7001 (Let us not forget to include Elijah )

I'm not sure of your use of "already." So, rather than assume to know what you mean (although I think I do know), I'll ask: What do you mean by "Already His."

1. Do you mean that these were people who had already chosen God and were, there for saved? (This would be my guess as to what you mean)
2. Do you mean that these were people God had already chosen to be His faithful remnant? (This would be, I think, the unlikely meaning of your statement)

Sleep well...I'm watching the re-run of the Rep. debate and Anderson Cooper's post-debate coverage and I really need to go to bed!)

Blessings,

The Archangel

PS. You certainly didn't need to edit your previous post on my account. I didn't take offense to anything (if that's why you edited..if not, never-mind the ramblings of a sleep-depraved despondent republican who can't seem to bring himself to go to bed! )

 

[Allan]

OK...the sleep demon hasn't overtaken me yet.

:laugh: I wish I could (sleep that is) but I'm at work.

I'm not sure of your use of "already." So, rather than assume to know what you mean (although I think I do know), I'll ask: What do you mean by "Already His."

1. Do you mean that these were people who had already chosen God and were, there for saved? (This would be my guess as to what you mean)
2. Do you mean that these were people God had already chosen to be His faithful remnant? (This would be, I think, the unlikely meaning of your statement)

Sleep well...I'm watching the re-run of the Rep. debate and Anderson Cooper's post-debate coverage and I really need to go to bed!)

Blessings,

The Archangel

I'm not sure I understand what is so hard to grasp about what I am saying, but it is late . Here is the text in a couple of other versions:

“Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.” - ESV

- 1Ki 19:18 - "Yet I will leave 7,000 in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal and every mouth that has not kissed him." - NASB

and I have left in Israel seven thousand, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that hath not kissed him.' - Young

It is apparent to me from the above versions the answer has to be your first one.

Notice also that this is in responce to Elijah's statement here :

1Ki 19:14 And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, [even] I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.

Those whom the Lord 'left in Israel' were alreayd believers (saved) and these 7000 are identified as those who "Have Not Bowed to Baal, and every mouth that Has Not kissed him". If all of Israel had done what Elijah said and that he truely was the only believer left, then why did these 7000 not believe and follow Baal like the others. Because they were alreayd His, believers. With regard to the context of the passage, Elijah was being hunted and he thought if he died he was the last believer alive, but God assures him he is not for God has 'left, reserved, and will leave' for Himself 7000 others of Israel.

So I guess I'm not sure what you are trying to get across the verse is saying to you.

 

[Jarthur001]

Allan,

I don’t have the time this morning to go into great detail on my ideas. Now as you know I at times can be a very free thinker. However, in this case I have a lot of support. I’ll not post all that support right now, but I will point you toward a thought and see what you think.

Let me ask you this. Calvinist and non-Calvinist alike will agree that there is one must believe/ have faith in God's salvation's plan. Now I ask, going by this passage why were those that were chosen, chosen?

His chosing them 'the Nation' (according to the passage in question) was that they might know, believe, and understand that He is the Lord. The Nation was chosen for the express purpose to be His witnesses in the world and to the world that HE IS THE LORD.

A nation? Yes and no. I say he chose a people.

Isaiah 43 is a masterpiece of divine writing. I liken it to John 1 and Hebrew 1. You will find many short messages woven into one great message. Well…that is the way I see it anyway. Let me give you a verse that I feel is key and see if you pickup on what I see. Maybe we can talk about this over the weekend.


8 ¶ Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears.


As to LORD. I agree and this is just part of my point. I wrote of this subject a few weeks ago.

Philippians 2:9-11

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

If you enjoy Bible study, and you have studied this book before, you will know that many if not most writers feel Paul is claiming the supreme name given by God is Jesus. I will disagree with this notion for a few reasons. Reason number one, no name is ever to be placed above Yahweh (Jehovah). Next is that this passage tells us the name that is above all others, if you read it to the end, Verse 11 says it for us, “Jesus Christ is Lord”.

Quote:
A nation without individuals?

That is not what I said.

I agree. I didn't want to answer what you asked, because you may be mislead.

Q

uote:
What even is this talking about where all the nations are gathered?

If you are presuming it is at the end times, then you would be greatly mistaken.
This isn't at any particular time. It is God illistrating a point using the other Nations as objects by which to bring His point home. No other Nation can be likened to that of Israel with regard to God's favor.

I agree with most of this and the parts I disagree with will only take us off the subject. You miss my point and the point of the passage.

Quote:
Indeed. Gods chosen people. But did you notice there were people "in the beginning" not chosen? Yet...that is there too.

There are many of the chosen (Nation of Israel) who were not saved either. I can take you all through the OT and show you many, even some priests of God!

OOPs....there you go. Wrong idea.

Quote:
I believe the Bible if that is what you are asking.

I didn't ask that and you know it.

Right, but I did answer you if you add this line to the next few statements.

Quote:

Why were they chosen?

To be His witnesses that He is the Lord

and?

Quote:

When are the nations gathered?

They weren't

Wrong answer. Try again.

Quote:

Will all of Israel be saved?

Is the 'all' here implying that all Jews from Abraham till Christ's second coming will be will be saved? If so, The answer is No.

All Gods people.

 

[skypair]

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (KJV) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The word "to" indicates a destination.
The word "through" indicates a path.
The destination is salvation, the path is sanctification and belief.

Where has God chosen to take his chosen ones? A: Salvation.

How will God get them there? A: through the sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

How did they get on the path? A: "he called you"

How were they called? A: "by our gospel"

Let's try to be a little bit more discerning, shall we? God chose us to salvation only because we were called by the gospel, believed and were sanctified. You are misusing the word "through" in your interpretation. Everything after "through" is the means by which God chose them "from the beginning." Paul is expressing the "foreknowledge" of God in Rom 8:29 here whereby He chose/predestined them to "the obtaining of glory."

skypair

 

[skypair]

AA, Allan,

Seems to me you are talking about an interesting point --- demons believe but can't be changed. Would you maybe agree that demons are the perfect example of Calvin's "unregenerate sinner?" A demon is a "slave" to his sin, isn't he? Even "believing" there is no hope for him.


So by inference, wouldn't the only person who would be a true "slave to sin" be one who is possessed by a demon? Wouldn't the only person who could be a "slave" to righteousness be one indwelt by the Holy Spirit? And isn't this latter what Paul says we are who "live in the Spirit?"

skypair

 

[Dr. L.T. Ketchum]

Let's try to be a little bit more discerning, shall we? God chose us to salvation only because we were called by the gospel, believed and were sanctified. You are misusing the word "through" in your interpretation. Everything after "through" is the means by which God chose them "from the beginning." Paul is expressing the "foreknowledge" of God in Rom 8:29 here whereby He chose/predestined them to "the obtaining of glory."

skypair

You are correct. The aspect of SALVATION referred to in II Thessalonians 2:13 is the glorification of believers. All believers were elected to that end.

Although this is a little simplistic in that progressive revelation reveals changing aspects of election as the Abrahamic Covenant unfolds (this is why we must be careful about monothetic definitions), New Covenant BELIEVERS are elect "in Christ." In the New Covenant (after Pentecost), only believers are the elect (however, even this statement is not totally correct in that there are still Jews being born who are part of elect National Israel, but who are not believers ).

No one is elected to be a believer (although God forknows all things including who will believe). These issues involve dispensational transitions.

The difficulty here is in understanding that there is both a National Israel (with earthly and temporal promises) and a Spiritual Israel (with heavenly and eternal promises). Both are elect. In both National and Spiritual Israel, election is conditional. The condition of election to National Israel is to be of the seed (notice the small s) of Abraham. The condition of election to Spiritual Israel is to be of the Seed (notice the capital S) of Abraham (Gal. 3:16, 19, & 29).

National Israel is composed of both believers (that Jesus is Messiah) and unbelievers (that Jesus is not messiah). Today (after Pentecost) all New Covenant believers (both Jews and Gentiles) are part of Spiritual Israel "in Christ" (Gal 3:23-29). There are some extensive and broad ramifications to this for New Covenant believers as part of our "so great salvation" that expands upon this position "in Christ." This is the subject matter of Romans chapter nine continuing through chapter 11 of Romans.

 

[Dr. L.T. Ketchum]

I have stayed out of this thread because I found it amusing to read all the responses to one another (for once )

I am not the good Dr, but I will state James that your posted scripture has nothing to with eternal salvation that the Dr. is speaking of.

Your scripture is speaking about God's choosing of a nation, not specifically individuals to be His witnesses as you can see from the previous verse which speaks of all the other nations to bring forth their witnesses:

The salvation spoken of in vs 12 is not eternal but teporal and in relation to God keeping the 'Nation' from being destroyed thereby being saved. This is why the NATION is His witness, and because they were His people they were to obey Him and is also why they are called His servant.

Not to mention the beginning of the chapter declares this is TO ISRAEL the Nation.

And I doubt very seriously you will contend that the whole nation of Israel was/is saved.

I know you have better scriptures than that one to give evidence of. It is just that that one did not convey what you were 'presumedly' claiming.

Brother Allen,
You may not have a Doctorate, but I will give you an honorary one for this post. I think you nailed it!

 

[J.D.]

Let's try to be a little bit more discerning, shall we? God chose us to salvation only because we were called by the gospel, believed and were sanctified. You are misusing the word "through" in your interpretation. Everything after "through" is the means by which God chose them "from the beginning." Paul is expressing the "foreknowledge" of God in Rom 8:29 here whereby He chose/predestined them to "the obtaining of glory."

skypair

Let's review.

God -- noun, the doer
from the beginning -- prepositional phrase, answers the question "when"
chosen -- verb, the thing done
you -- noun, the person chosen
to salvation -- prepositional phrase, answers the question "for what purpose"
through...truth -- prepositional phrase, answers the question "how"

Who did it? A: God
When did he do it? A: from the beginning
What did he do? A: Chose
Who did he choose? A: "you"
For what purpose or end were you chosen? salvation
How will he save you? A: through the sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

So sanctification and belief is a condition of what? Now look carefully at the text. The answer is "salvation".

Now look at the text again carefully and tell what condition is given for God's choice? Spare your eyes, it's not there. There is no condition to election in this passage.

 

[J.D.]

Originally Posted by Allan
I have stayed out of this thread because I found it amusing to read all the responses to one another (for once )

Glad you find us bottom feeders amusing, DOCTOR Allan.
lol

 

[The Archangel]

Allan, thank you for your reply.

1 Kings 19:18 (ESV)
Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him."

You wrote:

It is apparent to me from the [passage] the answer has to be [these were people who had already chosen God and were, there for saved].

Thank you for the clarification; my assumption was correct. Certainly this passage is God speaking in response to Elijah’s despondent assessment of the situation—that he was the only remaining person faithful to God. God responded, with the wonderfully reassuring passage (listed above), to encourage Elijah by saying that God had kept for Himself 7,000 faithful believers.

I know you don’t like that interpretation (more on that in a minute). You continued:

Those whom the Lord 'left in Israel' were already believers (saved) and these 7000 are identified as those who "Have Not Bowed to Baal, and every mouth that Has Not kissed him". If all of Israel had done what Elijah said and that he truly was the only believer left, then why did these 7000 not believe and follow Baal like the others—because they were already His, believers. With regard to the context of the passage, Elijah was being hunted and he thought if he died he was the last believer alive, but God assures him he is not for God has 'left, reserved, and will leave' for Himself 7000 others of Israel.

So I guess I'm not sure what you are trying to get across the verse is saying to you.

I'm not sure I understand what is so hard to grasp about what I am saying,

I do grasp what you are saying. Unfortunately, how you are reading the verse is not how the original Hebrew presents the verse. Please allow me to explain.

In Hebrew there are different verbal “stems.” These stems show quite a bit of nuance. The most basic stem is called Qal. It shows simple action (usually in the past tense) like “I saw,” “I knew,” “he walked,” etc.

In the 1 Kings passage the first word is [FONT=&quot]וְהִשְׁאַרְתִּ֥י[/FONT] The word (without the conjunction “vav”) is [FONT=&quot]הִשְׁאַרְתִּ֥י[/FONT] In Hebrew the verb usually starts the sentence and this sentence is not an exception.

The verb is [FONT=&quot]שָׁאַר[/FONT] and it means is the same root that gives us the noun “remnant.” This verb, however, is not in the Qal stem; it is a Hiphil. The Hiphil stem is reflexive where the subject is the one causing the action.

So, the better translation would be “I have kept for myself 7,000…” Notice that God is doing the action, He is causing His desired outcome. In conjunction with the context of the passage, it is clear what the text is saying: These were people God had already chosen to be His faithful remnant.

Why? Because 1. The condition of Israel at that time was atrocious, 2. Elijah thought himself to be the last remaining believer. Couple that with the Hiphil verb and it is clear that God has kept for Himself a faithful people (a true Israel inside the apostate Israel).

I know you don’t like this interpretation—that God does the keeping. However it is the clear from the text that this is the passage’s intended meaning.

May God richly bless you! (even as you work at night in SD!)

The Archangel

 

[Dr. L.T. Ketchum]

Allan, thank you for your reply.

1 Kings 19:18 (ESV)
Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him."

You wrote:


Thank you for the clarification; my assumption was correct. Certainly this passage is God speaking in response to Elijah’s despondent assessment of the situation—that he was the only remaining person faithful to God. God responded, with the wonderfully reassuring passage (listed above), to encourage Elijah by saying that God had kept for Himself 7,000 faithful believers.

I know you don’t like that interpretation (more on that in a minute). You continued:


I do grasp what you are saying. Unfortunately, how you are reading the verse is not how the original Hebrew presents the verse. Please allow me to explain.

In Hebrew there are different verbal “stems.” These stems show quite a bit of nuance. The most basic stem is called Qal. It shows simple action (usually in the past tense) like “I saw,” “I knew,” “he walked,” etc.

In the 1 Kings passage the first word is [FONT=&quot]וְהִשְׁאַרְתִּ֥י[/FONT] The word (without the conjunction “vav”) is [FONT=&quot]הִשְׁאַרְתִּ֥י[/FONT] In Hebrew the verb usually starts the sentence and this sentence is not an exception.

The verb is [FONT=&quot]שָׁאַר[/FONT] and it means is the same root that gives us the noun “remnant.” This verb, however, is not in the Qal stem; it is a Hiphil. The Hiphil stem is reflexive where the subject is the one causing the action.

So, the better translation would be “I have kept for myself 7,000…” Notice that God is doing the action, He is causing His desired outcome. In conjunction with the context of the passage, it is clear what the text is saying: These were people God had already chosen to be His faithful remnant.

Why? Because 1. The condition of Israel at that time was atrocious, 2. Elijah thought himself to be the last remaining believer. Couple that with the Hiphil verb and it is clear that God has kept for Himself a faithful people (a true Israel inside the apostate Israel).

I know you don’t like this interpretation—that God does the keeping. However it is the clear from the text that this is the passage’s intended meaning.

May God richly bless you! (even as you work at night in SD!)

The Archangel

Brother,

You are making huge leaps here based upon suppositions. The text to which you are referring refers to God's PRESERVATION of believers. God preserves all true believers. This is the basis of eternal security. God chose faithful believers to be His remnant. This text is not referring to anyone being elected to salvation. These 7,000 prophets were already believers and so God will keep them or preserve them (II Tim. 4:18).

In retrospect, if you are saying that God only CAUSED 7,000 to be faithful, He MUST THEN have caused the rest of believing Israel to be unfaithful in that He did not choose them to be faithful and aid them in faithfulness.

 

[The Archangel]

Brother,

You are making huge leaps here based upon suppositions. The text to which you are referring refers to God's PRESERVATION of believers. God preserves all true believers. This is the basis of eternal security. God chose faithful believers to be His remnant. This text is not referring to anyone being elected to salvation. These 7,000 prophets were already believers and so God will keep them or preserve them (II Tim. 4:18).

Lance,

This is not a huge leap and it is not based on suppositions. In fact, my "Supposition" is that the Apostle Paul, who cites this passage and uses it as an example, is correct in his interpretation. After all, he is the Apostle Paul! He writes:

Romans 11:2-6
God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4 But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Paul is saying what I am saying--God keeps for Himself a faithful remnant. He personally ensures their faith and subsequent faithfulness. Paul's statement, in Greek, includes the reflexive pronoun translated "for myself."

Furthermore, to make his point (any my point too) he goes on to say the remnant was chosen by grace. He says there was a remnant in Elijah's time and now (his time). Both were chosen by grace. They were not chosen to be a remnant because of their faith. No, they were chosen, by grace, and because of God's choice to choose them, they are the remnant.

Paul's emphasis goes even further. He completely eliminates faith being the basis for becoming a part of the remnant. It faith were the requirement to become part of the remnant and we, to be elected as part of the remnant, must demonstrate faith, then faith would be a "work" and nullify God's grace. Instead, the point Paul is making is this: God chooses and He does so on the basis of grace (where nothing is deserved).

You continued:

In retrospect, if you are saying that God only CAUSED 7,000 to be faithful, He MUST THEN have caused the rest of believing Israel to be unfaithful in that He did not choose them to be faithful and aid them in faithfulness.

Now it is your presuppositions that are showing. Paul actually addresses this later in the remainder of Romans 11.

Romans 11:7-10
7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”


9 And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever.”

Paul says the elect obtained what it was seeking. The rest were hardened--by God. Notice who "gave the spirit of stupor, the eyes not seeing, and the ears not hearing," it was God who did this.

So, I would say God chose the elect to the necessary exclusion of those not chosen because that is exactly what Paul is saying.



Blessings,

The Archangel