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Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
RightFropmWrong wrote,
If the doctrine of conditional security is a heresy, all of the early Christians whom it pleased God to use to formalize the doctrine of the Trinity and to establish the New Testament Canon were heretics who did not even understand the doctrine of salvation! And if the doctrine of conditional security is a heresy, all Christians were heretics for the first 1500 years and the Bible is so poorly worded that no one could understand it for 1500! What absolute nonsense!
The plain and obvious facts are that the Bible is the inspired Word of God and that God wrote it so that the doctrine of Salvation could be understood and it was understood, but ear ticklers have crept into the Church and led very many Christians astray teaching them that God sees us as righteous even if there is sin in our lives.
That the doctrine of eternal security was invented by men in the early 16th century is a matter of history that cannot be denied and it is a doctrine that blatantly and most dangerously contradicts the word of God.
Anyone who believes that I have contradicted myself in this thread has NOT understood what I have written because they have not studied for themselves the doctrine of conditional security. Instead of banging away at their keyboards, they need to do some reading of elementary Christian theology and pray that God will open up for them the Scriptures so that they can accurately understand them.
Question:
What do you suppose that God is going to do with those individuals who are so arrogant that they believe that they understand about salvation what no Christians were able to understand for 1500 years?
Question:
Who do you suppose has really understood the doctrine of salvation—the early Church fathers who lived in and grew up in the time when New Testament Greek was the language of the day or most Baptists who live in a time and culture 2,000 years removed from the time of Christ?
You are ignoring a plain, simple and incontrovertible fact. For 1500 years the Bible was unanimously understood by all Christians studying it to teach conditional security and it is understood by the large majority of Christians studying the Bible today to teach conditional security. The Bible has not changed; Biblical hermeneutics have changed, and today most Baptists are woefully confused about the doctrine of salvation. Anyone who is familiar with the Baptist literature on the Epistle to the Hebrews knows that it is difficult to find any two Baptist scholars who agree on the interpretation of that book in our New Testament because they are all searching in vain for ways to get around the conditional passages and they cannot at all agree on how to get around them. What they need to do is take God at His word and accept those passages for what they say.
If the doctrine of conditional security is a heresy, all of the early Christians whom it pleased God to use to formalize the doctrine of the Trinity and to establish the New Testament Canon were heretics who did not even understand the doctrine of salvation! And if the doctrine of conditional security is a heresy, all Christians were heretics for the first 1500 years and the Bible is so poorly worded that no one could understand it for 1500! What absolute nonsense!
The plain and obvious facts are that the Bible is the inspired Word of God and that God wrote it so that the doctrine of Salvation could be understood and it was understood, but ear ticklers have crept into the Church and led very many Christians astray teaching them that God sees us as righteous even if there is sin in our lives.
That the doctrine of eternal security was invented by men in the early 16th century is a matter of history that cannot be denied and it is a doctrine that blatantly and most dangerously contradicts the word of God.
Anyone who believes that I have contradicted myself in this thread has NOT understood what I have written because they have not studied for themselves the doctrine of conditional security. Instead of banging away at their keyboards, they need to do some reading of elementary Christian theology and pray that God will open up for them the Scriptures so that they can accurately understand them.
Question:
What do you suppose that God is going to do with those individuals who are so arrogant that they believe that they understand about salvation what no Christians were able to understand for 1500 years?
Question:
Who do you suppose has really understood the doctrine of salvation—the early Church fathers who lived in and grew up in the time when New Testament Greek was the language of the day or most Baptists who live in a time and culture 2,000 years removed from the time of Christ?
R
RightFromWrong
Guest
WHATEVER 
Give it up most Born Again Christians ( notice I didn't say Baptist ) believe once saved always saved. Even the ones in the Bible probably more so than now. Peter reject Christ 3 times and Jesus gave him headship over the church shortly after.
Give it up most Born Again Christians ( notice I didn't say Baptist ) believe once saved always saved. Even the ones in the Bible probably more so than now. Peter reject Christ 3 times and Jesus gave him headship over the church shortly after.
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
Greek participles are verbal adjectives expressing stative aspect. </font>[/QUOTE]I see that you did not answer my other two questions! Apparently you do not know Greek grammar or understand what part of tense is meant by aspect but are simply parroting what some ill-informed knucklehead has told you. If you want us to believe that you know what you are talking about, please accurately define for us what "stative aspect" means. And don’t beat around the bush; simply give us the correct technical definition for the term.
R
RightFromWrong
Guest
WHATEVER
Give it up most Born Again Christians ( notice I didn't say Baptist ) believe once saved always saved. Even the ones in the Bible probably more so than now. Peter reject Christ 3 times and Jesus gave him headship over the church shortly after.
Give it up most Born Again Christians ( notice I didn't say Baptist ) believe once saved always saved. Even the ones in the Bible probably more so than now. Peter reject Christ 3 times and Jesus gave him headship over the church shortly after.
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
RightFromWrong wrote,
R
RightFromWrong
Guest
To bad your out numbered
Well, then, there are other doctrine such as the Real Presence in the "Eucharist" or baptismal regeneration which should be believed then simply because the Church at large or the "Church Fathers" believed it for 1500 or so years.
Craig you know that Church Fathers are NOT the final authority about OSAS or Communion or Baptism.
On the other hand we know quite well what God is going to do with all those pretenders and mask wearers (who in reality are workers of inquity) on the Last Day.
They are going to the Lake of Fire.
HankD
Aspect refers to the nature of an action. It can be an event occurring once, an event recurring repeatedly, a continuing process, or a state.
A "stative aspect" refers to a state of being. In the case of "believe" it refers to the state of being in belief. In the case of "saved" it refers to the state of being saved.
All first year Greek students know that much!
Actually, in my opinion, all born again people believe in eternal security. You cannot believe in salvation by grace alone without believing in eternal security. And you cannot deny eternal security without denying salvation by grace alone. And salvation by grace alone is the only kind there is!
R
RightFromWrong
Guest
TCassidy
My point exactly in my post on the Trinity.
I honestly believe one of two things about those who believe you can lose your salvation, and those who believe Jesus isn't God.
1)These people " May " be saved ( I am not God so I am not 100% sure ) but have been mislead by false teachers.
2)These people were NEVER saved in the first place. To not be able to understand a simple foundational belief like assurance of Salvation and that Jesus IS God. Is hard for me to accept. The Holy Spirit ALONE should bear witness to these facts !
My point exactly in my post on the Trinity.
I honestly believe one of two things about those who believe you can lose your salvation, and those who believe Jesus isn't God.
1)These people " May " be saved ( I am not God so I am not 100% sure ) but have been mislead by false teachers.
2)These people were NEVER saved in the first place. To not be able to understand a simple foundational belief like assurance of Salvation and that Jesus IS God. Is hard for me to accept. The Holy Spirit ALONE should bear witness to these facts !
Actually, in my opinion, all born again people believe in eternal security. You cannot believe in salvation by grace alone without believing in eternal security. And you cannot deny eternal security without denying salvation by grace alone. And salvation by grace alone is the only kind there is! </font>[/QUOTE]You've got that right TCassidy.
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
TCassidy wrote,
Thank you for your cooperation in answering my question. You are partially correct. Aspect refers to the nature of the action of a verb regarding its beginning, duration, completion, or repetition without regard to its position in time. The Greek present active participle of the verb translated “believe” connotes the state of believing, i.e., one who is in the process or state of believing, and such a person shares with Christ His life which is eternal. Anyone, however, who ceases by their own volition to be in the process or state of believing no longer shares with Christ His life and is damned to hell for eternity. This is all the more clear when one emphasizes that we are dealing here with not with time but with the nature of the action without regard to time. Therefore, the person who is not believing in Christ does not have eternal life regardless of whether or not this state of not believing precedes or follows one’s conversion. Only the person in the state of believing is said to have life.
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
Actually, in my opinion, all born again people believe in eternal security. You cannot believe in salvation by grace alone without believing in eternal security. And you cannot deny eternal security without denying salvation by grace alone. And salvation by grace alone is the only kind there is! </font>[/QUOTE]According to your belief, no one was born again until the time of John Calvin in the 16th century when the doctrine of eternal security was first invented, and the large majority of Christians today are not born again regardless of the fact that they have a life-long history of bearing fruit for our Savior. And, of course, according to your belief I am not born again nor are those members of this message board who have carefully and prayerfully studied the Word of God and learned that eternal security is a false doctrine. Persons who hold to your most radical point of view are heretics of the very worst order and enemies of the cross of Christ and it would be a sin against my Savior to continue a dialogue with you.
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
Actually, in my opinion, all born again people believe in eternal security. You cannot believe in salvation by grace alone without believing in eternal security. And you cannot deny eternal security without denying salvation by grace alone. And salvation by grace alone is the only kind there is! </font>[/QUOTE]You've got that right TCassidy.
What could possibly induce you to tell such a horrible lie about what I believe?
According to the bible (I already quoted the verse) you cannot mix grace and works. If you do, you void the grace and the works. If you don't like that, take it up with God, not with me. He said it, not me.
I can understand why you want to run away. You cannot possibly support your position from the bible as I have already shown you that God says grace and works cannot be mixed, so you have no other recourse then to call names and run away. I will pray for you
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
Here now asked,
Matt. 13:20. "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
21. yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
Mark 4:16. "In a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy;
17. and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away.
Luke 8:13. "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
John 15:5. "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6. "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
7. "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
8. "My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.
9. "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
10. "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
11. "These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.
1 Cor. 9:27. but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
1 Cor. 10:11. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.
Col. 1:21. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22. yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--
23. if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
2 Thes. 2:3. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4. who opposes and exalts himself above every so- called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
5. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
6. And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
7. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8. Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
9. that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10. and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
11. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
12. in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
1 Tim. 4:1. But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
2. by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
3. men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
2 Tim 4:1. I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2. preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
3. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4. and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
Heb. 3:12. Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
Heb. 10:26. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27. but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
2 Pet. 2:1. But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
3. and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
4. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
5. and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6. and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
7. and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men
8. (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds),
9. then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
10. and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties,
11. whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord.
12. But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,
13. suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you,
14. having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children;
15. forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16. but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.
17. These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.
18. For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19. promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20. For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."
2 Pet. 3:14. Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
15. and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16. as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,
18. but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
Jude 1:4. For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
5. Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
6. And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
7. just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
8. Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.
9. But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
10. But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
11. Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
12. These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted;
13. wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.
14. It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,
15. to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
16. These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage.
Keep Yourselves in the Love of God
17. But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,
18. that they were saying to you, "In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts."
19. These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly- minded, devoid of the Spirit.
20. But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
21. keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.
(NASB, 1995)
The Bible teaches that one falls from grace and loses one's salvation by committing apostasy.
Matt. 13:20. "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
21. yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
Mark 4:16. "In a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy;
17. and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away.
Luke 8:13. "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
John 15:5. "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6. "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
7. "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
8. "My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.
9. "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
10. "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
11. "These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.
1 Cor. 9:27. but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
1 Cor. 10:11. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.
Col. 1:21. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22. yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--
23. if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
2 Thes. 2:3. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4. who opposes and exalts himself above every so- called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
5. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
6. And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
7. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8. Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
9. that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10. and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
11. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
12. in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
1 Tim. 4:1. But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
2. by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
3. men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
2 Tim 4:1. I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2. preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
3. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4. and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
Heb. 3:12. Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
Heb. 10:26. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27. but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
2 Pet. 2:1. But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
3. and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
4. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
5. and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6. and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
7. and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men
8. (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds),
9. then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
10. and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties,
11. whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord.
12. But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,
13. suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you,
14. having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children;
15. forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16. but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.
17. These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.
18. For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19. promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20. For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."
2 Pet. 3:14. Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
15. and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16. as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,
18. but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
Jude 1:4. For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
5. Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
6. And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
7. just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
8. Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.
9. But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
10. But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
11. Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
12. These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted;
13. wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.
14. It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,
15. to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
16. These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage.
Keep Yourselves in the Love of God
17. But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,
18. that they were saying to you, "In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts."
19. These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly- minded, devoid of the Spirit.
20. But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
21. keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.
(NASB, 1995)
I was completely correct.
Correct. That person is in a state of belief, just as I said. Not a process, but a state.
Pure poppycock. Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Except it is impossible for a state of unbelief to follow conversion. Christ promised to finish what He started. He will perform it until the end.
Yes, and once a person is born he cannot be unborn and once a person is born again he cannot be unborn again.
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
I am too but much longer.Originally posted by RightFromWrong:
Craigbythesea
Still waiting
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.