Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
Hank wrote,
14. For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23. but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
1. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4. so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Hank,
You are not the first Christian to misunderstand Romans 7, especially vs. 14-25. And since I have very carefully studied about 300 views on Romans 7, I am very familiar with the many different interpretations of that passage and the causes of the many different interpretations.
In a very small nutshell, this passage was very well understood by the early Greek Church fathers who were familiar with Greek rhetoric, but a few of the early Latin Church Fathers, not being familiar with Greek rhetoric, stumbled over Paul’s use of the first person in the present tense. Augustine understood Romans 7 in his early years, but very late in his life he changed his mind in one of his writings which is known today as “The Retractions of Augustine.” This caused a division in the Church with scholars with very strong feelings as to the correct interpretation. Calvin adopted the view that was in agreement with his own Christian experience of bondage to sin. Other scholars, who had experienced the freedom from the bondage to sin that Jesus promised in John 8:32, adopted the view of Romans 7 that was in agreement with their own personal experience. Other scholars have simply approached it objectively and came to their own various conclusions.
The key to the passage, however, is found in the expression, “sold unto sin” in verse 14, an expression that excludes those who have been redeemed by Christ and that, therefore, excludes Paul. There are a number of other reasons why this passage cannot be Paul’s experience, and these reasons are found in the places in the New Testament that tell us what Paul was like before and after he was saved, and we know from these passages that even before Paul’s salvation, he did not personally experience the bondage described in Romans 7.
Looking at the entire argument leading up to Romans 7:14, beginning at Rom. 1:1, we see that Paul is here speaking on behalf of those devout Jews who loved God and His Word but who were looking to the Law to deliver them from the bonds of sin that very many Jews experience. Such a form of writing is common in early Greek literature, and Paul’s Greek speaking audience very clearly understood that Paul was simply putting himself in their place rhetorically, but to those Christians who are not familiar with this form of Greek rhetoric and who have not yet experienced the freedom that Jesus promised in John 8:32, the experience in Romans 7 sounds all too familiar. For those, however, who have experienced the freedom that Jesus promised, it is shocking that anyone could possibly believe that Romans 7:14-25 is a Christian experience, and even more shocking that anyone could possibly believe that it was Paul’s present experience as an Apostle of Jesus Christ. Indeed, Adam Clarke , a highly educated, multilingual Bible scholar, wrote,
"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." (NASB, 1995)
"If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.'' (NKJV)
If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (KJV)
NASB, 1995, Romans 7:14-8:4Nevertheless the law of sin is either always active to some degree or another or can be fully revived in which case physical death is a definite possibility.
NKJV Romans 7
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV Romans 8
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
14. For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23. but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
1. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4. so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Hank,
You are not the first Christian to misunderstand Romans 7, especially vs. 14-25. And since I have very carefully studied about 300 views on Romans 7, I am very familiar with the many different interpretations of that passage and the causes of the many different interpretations.
In a very small nutshell, this passage was very well understood by the early Greek Church fathers who were familiar with Greek rhetoric, but a few of the early Latin Church Fathers, not being familiar with Greek rhetoric, stumbled over Paul’s use of the first person in the present tense. Augustine understood Romans 7 in his early years, but very late in his life he changed his mind in one of his writings which is known today as “The Retractions of Augustine.” This caused a division in the Church with scholars with very strong feelings as to the correct interpretation. Calvin adopted the view that was in agreement with his own Christian experience of bondage to sin. Other scholars, who had experienced the freedom from the bondage to sin that Jesus promised in John 8:32, adopted the view of Romans 7 that was in agreement with their own personal experience. Other scholars have simply approached it objectively and came to their own various conclusions.
The key to the passage, however, is found in the expression, “sold unto sin” in verse 14, an expression that excludes those who have been redeemed by Christ and that, therefore, excludes Paul. There are a number of other reasons why this passage cannot be Paul’s experience, and these reasons are found in the places in the New Testament that tell us what Paul was like before and after he was saved, and we know from these passages that even before Paul’s salvation, he did not personally experience the bondage described in Romans 7.
Looking at the entire argument leading up to Romans 7:14, beginning at Rom. 1:1, we see that Paul is here speaking on behalf of those devout Jews who loved God and His Word but who were looking to the Law to deliver them from the bonds of sin that very many Jews experience. Such a form of writing is common in early Greek literature, and Paul’s Greek speaking audience very clearly understood that Paul was simply putting himself in their place rhetorically, but to those Christians who are not familiar with this form of Greek rhetoric and who have not yet experienced the freedom that Jesus promised in John 8:32, the experience in Romans 7 sounds all too familiar. For those, however, who have experienced the freedom that Jesus promised, it is shocking that anyone could possibly believe that Romans 7:14-25 is a Christian experience, and even more shocking that anyone could possibly believe that it was Paul’s present experience as an Apostle of Jesus Christ. Indeed, Adam Clarke , a highly educated, multilingual Bible scholar, wrote,
The man in Romans 7:14-25 is desperately striving in vain to keep the Law of Moses and can only be a devout, unsaved Jew, for a Christian is not under the Law but under grace, and does not strive to keep the Law. The man in Romans 7:14-25 is trying to find peace with God through his own works rather than through the work of Christ on the cross. The man in Rom. 7:14-25 is not a born-again Christian but a struggling Jew who has not yet received the promise given to all of us,It is difficult to conceive how the opinion could have crept into the Church, or prevailed there, that “the apostle speaks here of his regenerate state; and that what was, in such a state, true of himself, must be true of all others in the same state.” This opinion has, most pitifully and most shamefully, not only lowered the standard of Christianity, but destroyed its influence and disgraced its character. It requires but little knowledge of the spirit of the Gospel, and of the scope of this epistle, to see that the apostle is, here, either personating a Jew under the law and without the Gospel, or showing what his own state was when he was deeply convinced that by the deeds of the law no man could be justified, and had not as yet heard those blessed words: Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way, hath sent me that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, Act_9:17.
"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." (NASB, 1995)
"If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.'' (NKJV)
If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (KJV)
