Repenting of sin-Once saved always saved

[Craigbythesea]

JackRUS wrote,

These Hebrews had tasted of the incipient truth regarding Jesus Christ. They had been introduced to the things taught in the forepart of Acts. They had these scant fragments of truth, only tasted. They came to the brink of knowing Jesus Christ, but in the process of time, fell away from the little truth which had been presented to them.

The Bible says,

Heb.6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

If the Hebrews written about in vv. 4-5 were not Christians, and they fell away from the little truth which had been presented to them, what did they do that was so bad that it became impossible for them to be saved after that?

The truth of the matter is that the writer of this epistle is describing born-again Christians using the language of his day to describe them—and he describes them is so much detail that for 1500 years everyone reading this chapter knew that he was describing born-again Christians, and most Christians reading this chapter today know that he was describing born-again Christians.

The conclusion that these Hebrew individuals were not Christians is based exclusively on deductive logic—the very same kind of logic that Jesus saw people using and He asked them NOT to use it!

Premise: Christians cannot lose their salvation
Data: Heb. 6:4-8 describes people who are falling away and damned to hell
Conclusion: The people in Heb. 6:4-8 cannot be Christians

Premise: Performing any kind of work on the Sabbath is a sin
Data: Jesus performed work on the Sabbath
Conclusion: Jesus is a sinner

Premise: Claiming to be God is blasphemy
Data: Jesus taught that he was God
Conclusion: Jesus is a blasphemer and deserving of death

John 10:31. The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.
32. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"
33. The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."
34. Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?
35. "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
36. do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
37. "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
38. but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."
39. Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him, and He eluded their grasp.

Jesus pleads with the people to apply inductive rather than deductive logic, that is, to look at the works that He is doing and to figure out from the works that he is not blaspheming, but that He truly is God.

Data: Jesus is healing people
Analysis: Jesus is performing miracles that only God could perform
Conclusion: Jesus is God

Data: The expressions used to describe the persons in Heb. 6:4-5 were frequently used in early Christian liturgies and literature to describe born-again Christians and the salvation experience; they are NEVER used in early Christian liturgies and literature to describe persons who are not born-again or experiences other than those pertaining to salvation
Analysis: The great preponderance of the data indicates that the persons being described in Heb. 6:4-5 are born-again Christians
Conclusion: The persons being described in Heb. 6:4-5 are born-again Christians

Having settled that matter using inductive logic, we proceed to read the rest of the chapter to see what it says about these born-again Christians, continuing to study the Bible inductively, rather than deductively like the Pharisees who had Jesus Crucified based on their faulty logic.

 

[HankD]

CraigByTheSea says

Regeneration changes both the inner man and the outer man, but they are both present in every man before and after conversion.

All I can do is repeat my previous thoughts that no unregenerate person has an "inner man" who delights in the law. Also, the present tense in koine Greek (which I have studied both formally and informally) is functionally equivalent to the English present tense and in my estimation your reversal of the tense is eisogesis to make the passage fit your own view which seems quite obvious to me.

I just can't accept the willy-nilly reversal of the plain and simple koine present tense.

The Law:
The NT through Paul and the other apostles, as you know say many things about the law.

It engenders fear, guilt and a curse, that is it's purpose.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Romas 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 4:15
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.

Romans 7:5
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

1 Corinthians 15:16
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

I really can't accept the premise that any unregenerate man can delight in the law, the very thing which curses and condemns him.

God said it, Jesus did it, I believe it—and so did Paul! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A CHRISTIAN BEING SOLD INTO BONDAGE TO SIN. THAT IS A LIE DIRECTLY FROM THE VERY PIT OF HELL!

John 8:4
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Revelation 2:20
Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

Craig also says:

Paul is putting himself in the place of the men to whom he is writing (in this particular part of the Epistle)

That is a stretch I cannot accept. Paul uses the presonal pronoun "I" about 30 times making no inference at all that it is a vicarious "I".

It is Paul speaking of himself in the present tense plain and simple.

HankD

 

[buckster75]

Craig: My Bible says we can not be separated. Gentelmen of the truth. I feel to continue is to cast pearls befor swine and Craig himself gives us evidence of this:
"Buckster75 wrote,
quote: so you are say you can undo something God did?

Absolutely! Even pigs can do that, as both the Old and New Testaments teach."

Romans 8:35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Hank wrote,

All I can do is repeat my previous thoughts that no unregenerate person has an "inner man" who delights in the law.

This statement is contrary to well-documented fact.

Also, the present tense in koine Greek (which I have studied both formally and informally) is functionally equivalent to the English present tense

This statement is contrary to well-documented fact. I have numerous Greek grammars here in my study and every one of them absolutely contradicts your statement and I challenge to quote even one Greek grammar that supports your statement. I can quote many of them that absolutely refute it! However, the difference between the Greek present tense and the English present tense has very little bearing on the interpretation of this passage, and none at all as far as our discussion is concerned.

and in my estimation your reversal of the tense is eisogesis to make the passage fit your own view which seems quite obvious to me.

You are totally misunderstanding the Greek rhetoric here—there is no reversal, change, modification, or alteration of the Greek present tense here. Paul is here using the present tense in the ordinary manner,

14. For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

The question is not the tense, the question is the identity of the “I” and no one can deny that the Greeks frequently used the first person singular pronoun in the manner that I have described in my post. I should further add than although in English literature we do not find that very often, we do, however, very frequently find the first person plural pronoun used in this very same way.

I just can't accept the willy-nilly reversal of the plain and simple koine present tense.

Again, there is no reversal, change, modification, or alteration of the Greek present tense here and I did not write anything to suggest that there is. Many other Baptists, however, have written such a thing. Indeed, they write that the experience here is so real and graphic that it shows that Paul experienced this very thing at some point in his Christian experience, most likely before the process of sanctification began. I could quote many Baptists taking this point of view, but I could also show in detail that their view is ridiculous.

The Law:
The NT through Paul and the other apostles, as you know say many things about the law.

It engenders fear, guilt and a curse, that is it's purpose.

Then why does the man in Romans 7 delight in it? Why do many Jews today delight in it? Paul, however, as a Christian did not delight in it nor does any born-again Christian. Indeed, to Paul the Law is the power of sin! And every born-again Christian should know full well that the Law is the power of sin and that there is no salvation possible for those who are under the Law and its power. Any yet you are arguing and insisting that Paul delighted in the power of sin! What could possibly be less true of the Apostle Paul? Only devout Jews delight in the Law because they do not realize that the Law is the power of sin and that grace is the power of righteousness.

1 Cor. 15:56. The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Romas 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 4:15
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.

Romans 7:5
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

1 Corinthians 15:16
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

All of these verses are written by Paul AFTER he was saved and realized the true nature of the Law. Even the most devout Jews do not have a clue to these things and they most definitely delight in the Law of God and to say that they don’t is like saying that the moon is made of cheese.

I really can't accept the premise that any unregenerate man can delight in the law, the very thing which curses and condemns him.

How many devout Jews have you talked to? How many Jewish devotional books have you read? Have you ever even attended a Jewish worship service? It is VERY obvious that John Calvin never did any of these things and that he was writing from total ignorance of the facts, and it would appear to me that you have not done any of them either and that you have absolutely no basis for your statement.

This is totally bizarre! I am arguing for the effectualness of the Cross and your are are arguing to the contrary while arguing for eternal security whereas I am arguing for conditional security. Although you believe in eternal security, your posts deny the very power that saves us!

Two questions:

1. Was Paul redeemed by the blood of the Lamb?

2. Who has the power to sell a born-again redeemed believer into bondage to sin?

7:14. For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

It is absolutely impossible for Romans 7:14 to be true of a blood-bought child of God and to say that it is true of a blood-bought child of God is nothing short of denying the truth of the Gospel.

 

[RightFromWrong]

Matt. 7:6

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by buckster75:
Craig: My Bible says we can not be separated. Gentelmen of the truth. I feel to continue is to cast pearls befor swine and Craig himself gives us evidence of this:
"Buckster75 wrote,
quote: so you are say you can undo something God did?

Absolutely! Even pigs can do that, as both the Old and New Testaments teach."

Romans 8:35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God washed the pigs and they got themselves dirty again.

God washes sinners and they sin again.

The Bible does NOT say that we cannot be separated from God. It says in passages that I quoted earlier in this thread that Christians can become separated from God. Romans 8 says that nothing can separate from the God, and gives a list of example of things that can not separate us from God. And all of this is totally true. Nothing can separate born-again believers from God. However, if we choose to no longer believe in Christ and chose to separate ourselves from him, we can walk away as far as we chose to.

This issue is immensely more complicated than can be stated in just five verses, and many other passages in the Bible clarify what Paul meant here. Paul’s writings must be very carefully compared with John’s writings to get a full understanding of what the Bible teaches regarding separation. Hint: Sin separates people from God. Study what John writes about believers and sin.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

I have posted this scripture 3 times (MA 21:35-40) and none of those supporting the doctrine of OSAS seems to be able to explain how it fits into their beliefs.

Can anyone who supports OSAS explain how this is compatible with their beliefs?

 

[RightFromWrong]

Sorry Craig you are WRONG again. NOTHING means NOTHING not even yourself get it !

You are totally missing the point again.
For someone who claims he likes to study so much look up these words, and these are just a few

NOTHING

ETERNAL LIFE

PREDESTINED

SECURITY

ASSURANCE

SALVATION

FORGIVENESS

SAVED

ADOPTION

JOINT HEIRS

REDEMPTION

JUSTIFIED

GLORIFIED

SEALED

GRACE

MERCY

SANCTIFIED

 

[buckster75]

StraightAndNarrow
Why do you think those verses have anything to do with the topic?

 

[Craigbythesea]

RightFromWrong wrote,

You are totally missing the point again.

This statement is not only completely false; it is also an ad hominem attack and, therefore, a violation of the rules of this message board.

 

[RightFromWrong]

After looking up all those words what is the conclusion of what Christ did for me ?

He chose me before the foundation of the world
NOT ME

He redemmed me from Hell
NOT ME

He chose me to be adopted into his family
NOT ME

He forgave me of all my sins forever
NOT BASED ON ME


He gave me life everlasting
NOT ME

He sanctified me by the shedding of his blood
NOT MINE

He sealed me with his stamp of approval ( Holy Spirit )
NOT MINE

He glorified me by his RIGHTEOUSNESS
NOT MY OWN

He assured me that he is forever faithful, true & is not a liar
I AM NOT TO BE TRUSTED BUT HE IS

He secured me with the Holy Spirit
NOT MY WILL OR FLESH

He Justified me through his sacrifice into a right relationship with God
JUST AS IF I HAD NEVER SINNED

And so on and so on

The only thing we are responsible for is to respond to God both in receiving Christ and after in yielding to his will. That is our responsiblity.
Gods resonsibilty is to remain True and Faithful

 

[buckster75]

I thought this was an issue Baptist agreed on.

 

[buckster75]

Craigbythesea,
Your info says you are "Conservative Baptist". You could have fool me. First one I have ran accross who thinks this way.

 

[RightFromWrong]

Yeah Straightandnarrow doesn't believe in Assurance of salvation either. And he is American Baptist, his church doesn't believe they can lose their salvation.

IMO I honestly think there are a few non Baptist on this board who are trying to push their false doctrine!

 

[Craigbythesea]

I thought this was an issue Baptist agreed on.

It amazes me that any one could be a Baptist and have such a poor undertanding of Baptists and what they believe.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by buckster75:
Craigbythesea,
Your info says you are "Conservative Baptist". You could have fool me. First one I have ran accross who thinks this way.

Have you ever studied the statement of faith of my denomination? Indeed, have you ever studied Baptist theology in its diversity and the reasons for the diversity? It appears to me that there are some Baptists who have never studied anything at all, but of course you are not one of them.

 

[RightFromWrong]

Craig I asked in another post what Baptist churches taught you can lose your salvation. Only one, the Free Will Baptist. Personally I haven't seen very many of those around in 20 years. The other one mentioned believed you could walk away GENERAL BAPTIST, I know of many General Baptist who DO NOT Teach this. my spouse was save and taught By the General Baptist and believes like I do.

I noticed you do not belong to either of these churches whats you escuse ? You have to admit you ARE in the minority of Baptist

 

[RightFromWrong]

Craig all you have to do is a GOOGLE search on what each Baptist church denomination believes
It is very easy and quick

 

[Craigbythesea]

You have to admit you ARE in the minority of Baptist

There is so much diversity among Baptists that all Baptists are in the minority!

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by buckster75:
StraightAndNarrow
Why do you think those verses have anything to do with the topic?

They show that what we do with our salvation, the quality of our walk with Christ, is extremely important to our eternal fate. Yes, we are saved by Grace through faith. Nothing that we could do as unsaved sinners has any impact on that. It is all through the mercy of God. But (and this is a big but) salvation is not a one time thing.

Salvation is a process. We continually need to determine if we are abiding in Him. Our status, as described in the example of the branch (saved person) which does not bear fruit.

Jhn 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Jhn 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Jhn 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Jhn 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Mat 25 provides a description of the Last Judgement as given by Jesus himself. Does it talk about grace and what you believe? No, it talks about acts of love that we do to our fellow man. Of course, as works of the unsaved cannot save them, neither do works of the unsaved count in this last great accounting of our lives.

This passage underscores that salvation is not only about grace and faith but also about what we do after we have been initially saved. Those who accept Christ and wander off to live their own life outside Him will come uo eternally short in this judgement. We must endure in the faith until the end.

2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith:
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
2Ti 4:9 Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me: