Replacement Theolody-what is it,who teaches it-

[Thomas Helwys]

Sounds good. Let's just remember that I've already self-identified as an economic supersessionist.



I think I'm understanding your question correctly when I reply: the test for salvation prior to the Cross was identification within the Israelite nation (which was available to Gentiles) and faithfulness to the covenants and God's ways.

Those who were among the OT saints achieved salvation in their lives and reside in Heaven following their lives because of the atoning power of the covenants available in Israel which is made complete in Jesus' final atonement.



The OT saints to NT saints are a seamless line of continuity of salvation from old covenants to new covenant.

I think Paul makes this case in Romans 4:9-25 as he speaks about the nature of righteousness leading to salvation in Abraham's (spiritual) descendants.

This is an important point since one of the arguments for the current political state of Israel that they are to be inheritors of God's Abrahamic Covenant. However, I would point out two things: a) the spiritual nation of Israel ceased to exist following the Babylonian captivity with the loss of all but two of the original 12 tribes of Israel, and b) Abraham's covenant didn't extend to all his children, but only his faithful children.

Faithfulness is the key to covenantal sealing.



Perhaps, but I think you need to primarily direct the conversation about the supersession of the Church over Israel via the NT. The Isaiah passage is more apt as it occurs later, the Genesis passages are problematic given their early dating. There's often too much confusion brought because of the mixing of concepts and languages.

One thing seem clear, that the Jews arose out of the consolidation of the tribe of Benjamin into Judah and then out of Judah. The other tribes had lingering identification in the early NT period, but once the New Covenant is sealed at Calvary they (at least for Christians) ceased to be unique.

This is a healthy conversation.

After reading your posts on this so far, I can say that my position is very close to yours.

 

[Iconoclast]

The church then did not replace Israel.
Israelites had to become Christians, or part of the church if you will.
Today, in this dispensation, the way of salvation is only through the blood of Jesus Christ. It always was, but in the OT, they only had a foreshadowing. We can look back to the real thing. But today the Israelites must trust the same Christ we do. We don't replace them. They are still here and salvation for them is the same as for us--salvation through Christ.
Salvation has always been the same for all:
Justification by faith. It was that way for Abraham, for David, and it is for us (See Romans 4). But in no way does the church replace Israel.

DHK,
We agree with much here as you have posted,as we should:thumbs:

The true identity of the True Israel is what is at issue. And also what is the nature of the fulfillment.

 

[Iconoclast]

Here is Gary Demar...offering a bit from a post mill view-


http://americanvision.org/1786/answering-replacement-theology-critic/

here is S.Lewis Johnson of Dallas with a premill take including several John macArthur sermons on israel:
http://scripturethoughts.wordpress....ism-and-replacement-theology-a-brief-history/



Is Covenant Theology the same as Replacement Theology?

It is not uncommon today to hear the argument advanced that Covenant Theology is anti-semitic, because it teaches that the New Testament Church replaces God's Old Testament people, ethnic Israel. Some of these critics of Covenant Theology use the pejorative term “Replacement Theology” to describe what they believe Covenant Theology teaches.

However, this term is an inaccurate and unfair representation of Covenant Theology: while it is true that Covenant Theology emphasizes the unity of God's people throughout redemptive history, and denies that the Church is a distinct people of God that exists alongside his other people, ethnic Israel (as does the bible, see questions 19-22 above); yet it most certainly does not teach that the Church “replaces” Israel. Quite to the contrary, it teaches that the Church has been in existence ever since God first established his Covenant of Grace with Adam, and that, while the Church was composed of the believing remnant of national Israel during the Old Testament era, God's design was always to expand it and bring all the nations into its fold, just as he promised Abraham (Gen. 12:3; Gal. 3:7-9). Today he has done that, and so now, his Church is composed both of the believing remnant of the Jewish nation, as it always has been, and also of a believing remnant of the Gentiles, who have been grafted in and made a part of the same body. So Israel has not been replaced, it has just been expanded to include Abraham's children by faith from every nation on earth.

Sadly, some Christian theologians of the past have in fact been anti-semitic, both before and after the crystallization of the biblical framework of Covenant Theology; but anti-semitism is not at all intrinsic to Covenant Theology which, when properly understood, demands an ongoing acceptance of the believing remnant of the Jewish nation as a necessary part of God's Church (see Romans 11).




Monergism Copyright © 2008
Then this blog says this:
http://www.biblicalpreteristarchive...y-demar-replacing-placement-theology-1of3.htm

The great problem here is, of course, that no Reformed Theologian I know espouses this boogey-man label “replacement theology” that has been placed upon them. No one really believes that the Church has so replaced Israel that modern Jews are cast aside by God as unwanted, unwelcome, and unsalvable. Just the opposite, the Reformed tradition has always stressed that Jews can come to faith just like anyone else can come to faith. Many have even taught that, on top of this open-door policy for Jews, there will be a mass-conversion of Jews sometime in the future (see the commentaries of Haldane and Murray on Romans 11, to name a couple). Moreover, the Westminster Larger Catechism teaches, under the heading “Thy Kingdom Come,” that we are meant to pray “that the kingdom of sin and Satan may be destroyed, the gospel propagated throughout the world, the Jews called, the fullness of the gentiles brought in; . . .” (WLC, Answer 191). As Reformed believers we are instructed to pray that the Jews would come to Christ! And, by the way, this was written in 1648, a direct product of the Reformation. That this pro-Jewish view of God’s plan has been around for 360 years now should signal to the dispensationalists that we do not, in fact, believe in replacement. Call it Fulfillment, Fullness, Expansion, even Grafting Theology-a dozen other labels will do-but replacement will not do, thank you.

here is Sam Storms:
http://www.samstorms.com/all-articles/post/the-church--israel--and--replacement--theology---part-iii

Here is jewish perspective???
http://dailyminyan.com/2012/03/12/50-signs-you-may-subscribe-to-replacement-theology/

 

[Iconoclast]

How many of these 50 points do any of you hold???
from the last link in the previous post_
http://dailyminyan.com/2012/03/12/50-signs-you-may-subscribe-to-replacement-theology/You may subscribe to Replacement Theology if you…

Believe that G-d divorced Israel and married the Church
Believe that the Christian Church is the “New Israel”
Believe that the Church is the continuation of Israel
Believe that Gentile Christians make up most of the “lost” Tribes of Israel
Believe that the existence of Judaism today is an aberration
Believe that Judaism is a “man-made” false religion, one among many
Believe that Israel is no different than any other nation in the world
Believe that the continuing existence of Jews as a separate people today is not really part of G-d’s plan
Believe that the modern country of Israel is not the continuation of ancient Israel
Believe that Israel the country has no right to exist and Jews are the “occupiers of Palestine”
Believe that G-d has already fulfilled all that He promised to Israel and cite Joshua 21:43-45 as your proof text
Believe that all the promises G-d gave to Israel are or will actually be fulfilled in the Church
Believe that a born Jew is not really a Jew unless he believes in Jesus
Believe that G-d has created a “third race”, the “One New Man”, where being Jewish or Gentile is meaningless
Spiritualize away the literal prophetic promises G-d gave to Israel
Believe that you know what food qualifies as kosher better than Jews do
Think that the Christian Church is superior to Israel
Believe that Christians know, interpret and understand the Hebrew Bible better than Hebrews (Jews) themselves
Believe that “Christ’s Law” replaced the Ten Commandments and Jesus did away with Jewish laws
Believe that by becoming a Christian a Gentile becomes a “spiritual Jew”
Say things like “nobody can know with certainty who is really Jewish and who is not”
Believe that you know better who is “Jewish’ than Jews themselves
Believe that by observing Torah, Jewish traditions and dressing like a Jew a Gentile automatically becomes a Jew/Israelite (sans conversion)
Refer to the Jewish faith as “Rabbinic Judaism”
Claim to follow “Biblical Judaism”
Have a Jeremiah 29:11 poster on your wall
Insist on calling Jewish laws “G-d’s laws” and Jewish holy days “Biblical feasts”
Insist on observing “Biblical feasts” using an “uncorrupted” calendar put together by someone who calls Judaism “Rabbinic Judaism”
View Messianic Judaism as divisive
View Messianic Judaism as legalistic
Believe that rabbis have “corrupted” the Bible
Believe that abandoning Torah observances and Jewish traditional practices is part of the “Good News” for Jewish people
Avoid using the word “Jewish” when referring to things pertaining to the “Messianic Movement”
Believe that G-d’s Holy Spirit has left the Jewish people
Refer to the experience of Jews coming to believe in their Jewish Messiah as “conversion”
Believe that all Jews should join a church
Believe that “Kabbalah” is some sort of demonic magic
Believe that Jesus came to erase all differences between Jews and Gentiles
Believe that individual nationalities and nations will cease to exist in the Kingdom of G-d
Believe that Torah applies equally to Jews and Gentiles
Believe that Jews don’t have the right to interpret the Torah that G-d gave them as they see fit
Believe that Jewish followers of Yeshua are wrong to want to form their own communities
Don’t view rampant Jewish/Christian intermarriage as an existential threat to Israel
Believe that Jesus will “Rapture” the Church while leaving his own Jewish people behind to suffer at the hands of Antichrist
Believe that the Church will live in Heaven but Israel will live on earth
Believe that the Church will one day rule over Israel
Believe that the Law of Moses was given to Israel just to show them how impossible it is to keep it
Believe that Jesus and the apostles left Judaism to start another religion
Believe that Jesus took the “Biblical faith” away from the rabbis and gave it to Christians
Believe that New Testament (approx. 22% of the Bible) should comprise 95% of your Bible reading.

 

[RLBosley]

How many of these 50 points do any of you hold???
from the last link in the previous post_
http://dailyminyan.com/2012/03/12/50-signs-you-may-subscribe-to-replacement-theology/You may subscribe to Replacement Theology if you…

Believe that G-d divorced Israel and married the Church
Believe that the Christian Church is the “New Israel”
Believe that the Church is the continuation of Israel
Believe that Gentile Christians make up most of the “lost” Tribes of Israel
Believe that the existence of Judaism today is an aberration
Believe that Judaism is a “man-made” false religion, one among many
Believe that Israel is no different than any other nation in the world
Believe that the continuing existence of Jews as a separate people today is not really part of G-d’s plan
Believe that the modern country of Israel is not the continuation of ancient Israel
Believe that Israel the country has no right to exist and Jews are the “occupiers of Palestine”
Believe that G-d has already fulfilled all that He promised to Israel and cite Joshua 21:43-45 as your proof text
Believe that all the promises G-d gave to Israel are or will actually be fulfilled in the Church
Believe that a born Jew is not really a Jew unless he believes in Jesus
Believe that G-d has created a “third race”, the “One New Man”, where being Jewish or Gentile is meaningless
Spiritualize away the literal prophetic promises G-d gave to Israel
Believe that you know what food qualifies as kosher better than Jews do
Think that the Christian Church is superior to Israel
Believe that Christians know, interpret and understand the Hebrew Bible better than Hebrews (Jews) themselves
Believe that “Christ’s Law” replaced the Ten Commandments and Jesus did away with Jewish laws
Believe that by becoming a Christian a Gentile becomes a “spiritual Jew”
Say things like “nobody can know with certainty who is really Jewish and who is not”
Believe that you know better who is “Jewish’ than Jews themselves
Believe that by observing Torah, Jewish traditions and dressing like a Jew a Gentile automatically becomes a Jew/Israelite (sans conversion)
Refer to the Jewish faith as “Rabbinic Judaism”
Claim to follow “Biblical Judaism”
Have a Jeremiah 29:11 poster on your wall
Insist on calling Jewish laws “G-d’s laws” and Jewish holy days “Biblical feasts”
Insist on observing “Biblical feasts” using an “uncorrupted” calendar put together by someone who calls Judaism “Rabbinic Judaism”
View Messianic Judaism as divisive
View Messianic Judaism as legalistic
Believe that rabbis have “corrupted” the Bible
Believe that abandoning Torah observances and Jewish traditional practices is part of the “Good News” for Jewish people
Avoid using the word “Jewish” when referring to things pertaining to the “Messianic Movement”
Believe that G-d’s Holy Spirit has left the Jewish people
Refer to the experience of Jews coming to believe in their Jewish Messiah as “conversion”
Believe that all Jews should join a church
Believe that “Kabbalah” is some sort of demonic magic
Believe that Jesus came to erase all differences between Jews and Gentiles
Believe that individual nationalities and nations will cease to exist in the Kingdom of G-d
Believe that Torah applies equally to Jews and Gentiles
Believe that Jews don’t have the right to interpret the Torah that G-d gave them as they see fit
Believe that Jewish followers of Yeshua are wrong to want to form their own communities
Don’t view rampant Jewish/Christian intermarriage as an existential threat to Israel
Believe that Jesus will “Rapture” the Church while leaving his own Jewish people behind to suffer at the hands of Antichrist
Believe that the Church will live in Heaven but Israel will live on earth
Believe that the Church will one day rule over Israel
Believe that the Law of Moses was given to Israel just to show them how impossible it is to keep it
Believe that Jesus and the apostles left Judaism to start another religion
Believe that Jesus took the “Biblical faith” away from the rabbis and gave it to Christians
Believe that New Testament (approx. 22% of the Bible) should comprise 95% of your Bible reading.

This guy's all over the place... Some of these point to dispensationalism not covenant or new covenant theology. weird.

 

[RLBosley]

I haven't read all the thread, only the first couple of pages.
There is a definite theology called "Replacement Theology." I believe that it is dangerous and even heretical. The Catholics believe this to some extent: that they are the One True Church, and replaced Israel. This is not true, and even Paul counters it.

Heretical? Really? In what way is that helpful at all? How about if we start calling dispensationalism heresy? or pre-tribulationism? I firmly believe both are great errors but heresy? Not quite.

There will always be Christians, believers.
There will always be Jews, Israel.
There will always be Gentiles.

Of course.
Physical there will always be Jews yes. And there is a nation known as "Israel" but that's another topic.
Yes.

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

If Paul mentions all three groups in the above verse, then how could one have replaced the other?
Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles. However he never forsook his love and desire to convert the Jews:

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

No one ever (that I'm aware of) said that those ethnicities physically ceased to exist entirely. And my prayer is that all people everywhere might be saved - that proves nothing.

Even today, Israel is still a nation. She cannot be ignored as a nation. We send missionaries to the nation of Israel that those Israelites might be saved. When they are saved, they leave their old religion (as Paul did), and become believers. We are not all Israelites, as some here mistakenly teach. (If so what tribe are you from)?

There is a nation called Israel yes. No one is suggesting we ignore it at all. I think we should support Israel in fact since it is the closest thing to a free state in that area. Again, no one is saying that we are physically Israelites that I'm aware of.

When the Gentile becomes saved he leaves his Gentile religion behind and becomes a Christian.
When the Jew becomes saves he leaves his Jewish religion behind and becomes a Christian.
One of the major themes of Ephesians is that the Jewish believer and the Gentile believer are one in Christ. There is no more wall between them.

Agreed. Sounds like supersessionism to me. :tongue3:
Particularly the bolded part. A core component of dispensationalism is that God has TWO people each with an unique inheritance and future.

There is no such thing as Replacement Theology. It is a dangerous doctrine. The logical outcome of this doctrine is that Islam, someday, will replace Christianity--which they are bent on doing.

Your logic needs more logic.

The problem we have here is a failure to communicate...
You seem to be under the impression that we believe the Jewish people (physical national Jews) have been replaced entirely. And as far as I know that's not the case at all. Certainly not my understanding of the issue. But the question is how do the Jews relate to the New Covenant? And who composes the people of God?

Paul tells us that the promises to Abraham's were to Christ -
Gal 3;16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

In this way there is a "sense" of replacement because it was assumed that Abraham's physical children would all receive the promises. But again Paul clears that issue up -
Rom 9:7-8 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

So the promises - the land of rest, the blessings all of it are given directly to Jesus (He is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel, He truly is the REAL Israel) and because we, the church, are co-heirs with Christ we are also counted as the children of promise. So there is NO future for national, physical Israel apart from the church. One day they will be grafted back into their own olive tree, but they will do so by repentance and faith in Jesus.

Of course there was a remnant of the physical Jews that were genuinely born again at the time Christ created His church so what did they have to do? They had to make that transfer to the New Covenant. The Old was a shadow of good things to come (Heb 10:1) but the shadow is totally inadequate compared to the substance. And that is exactly what we see in the life of the apostles. That is why they stressed the liberty found in Christ and warn heavily against Judaizers.

Thus there really isn't a "replacement" per se, since all of physical Israel was NEVER intended to receive the promises cart blanche. Instead we have a faithful remnant of Jews to which were added Gentiles at the establishment of the church and the unbelieving were broken off until the time that they are grafted back in to their own olive tree. And Jesus told the religious leaders of the day very plainly "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." That nation is the church, the true holy nation (1 Peter 2:9), the household of God (Eph 2:19), the Israel of God (Gal 6:16).

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Heretical? Really? In what way is that helpful at all? How about if we start calling dispensationalism heresy? or pre-tribulationism? I firmly believe both are great errors but heresy? Not quite.


Of course.
Physical there will always be Jews yes. And there is a nation known as "Israel" but that's another topic.
Yes.



No one ever (that I'm aware of) said that those ethnicities physically ceased to exist entirely. And my prayer is that all people everywhere might be saved - that proves nothing.



There is a nation called Israel yes. No one is suggesting we ignore it at all. I think we should support Israel in fact since it is the closest thing to a free state in that area. Again, no one is saying that we are physically Israelites that I'm aware of.


Agreed. Sounds like supersessionism to me. :tongue3:
Particularly the bolded part. A core component of dispensationalism is that God has TWO people each with an unique inheritance and future.


Your logic needs more logic.

The problem we have here is a failure to communicate...
You seem to be under the impression that we believe the Jewish people (physical national Jews) have been replaced entirely. And as far as I know that's not the case at all. Certainly not my understanding of the issue. But the question is how do the Jews relate to the New Covenant? And who composes the people of God?

Paul tells us that the promises to Abraham's were to Christ -
Gal 3;16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

In this way there is a "sense" of replacement because it was assumed that Abraham's physical children would all receive the promises. But again Paul clears that issue up -
Rom 9:7-8 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

So the promises - the land of rest, the blessings all of it are given directly to Jesus (He is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel, He truly is the REAL Israel) and because we, the church, are co-heirs with Christ we are also counted as the children of promise. So there is NO future for national, physical Israel apart from the church. One day they will be grafted back into their own olive tree, but they will do so by repentance and faith in Jesus.

Of course there was a remnant of the physical Jews that were genuinely born again at the time Christ created His church so what did they have to do? They had to make that transfer to the New Covenant. The Old was a shadow of good things to come (Heb 10:1) but the shadow is totally inadequate compared to the substance. And that is exactly what we see in the life of the apostles. That is why they stressed the liberty found in Christ and warn heavily against Judaizers.

Thus there really isn't a "replacement" per se, since all of physical Israel was NEVER intended to receive the promises cart blanche. Instead we have a faithful remnant of Jews to which were added Gentiles at the establishment of the church and the unbelieving were broken off until the time that they are grafted back in to their own olive tree. And Jesus told the religious leaders of the day very plainly "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." That nation is the church, the true holy nation (1 Peter 2:9), the household of God (Eph 2:19), the Israel of God (Gal 6:16).

See what I bolded: So, I take it you're a fan of Strother Martin, the warden in "Cool Hand Luke"?

 

[RLBosley]

See what I bolded: So, I take it you're a fan of Strother Martin, the warden in "Cool Hand Luke"?

:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Yeshua1]

Heretical? Really? In what way is that helpful at all? How about if we start calling dispensationalism heresy? or pre-tribulationism? I firmly believe both are great errors but heresy? Not quite.


Of course.
Physical there will always be Jews yes. And there is a nation known as "Israel" but that's another topic.
Yes.



No one ever (that I'm aware of) said that those ethnicities physically ceased to exist entirely. And my prayer is that all people everywhere might be saved - that proves nothing.



There is a nation called Israel yes. No one is suggesting we ignore it at all. I think we should support Israel in fact since it is the closest thing to a free state in that area. Again, no one is saying that we are physically Israelites that I'm aware of.


Agreed. Sounds like supersessionism to me. :tongue3:
Particularly the bolded part. A core component of dispensationalism is that God has TWO people each with an unique inheritance and future.


Your logic needs more logic.

The problem we have here is a failure to communicate...
You seem to be under the impression that we believe the Jewish people (physical national Jews) have been replaced entirely. And as far as I know that's not the case at all. Certainly not my understanding of the issue. But the question is how do the Jews relate to the New Covenant? And who composes the people of God?

Paul tells us that the promises to Abraham's were to Christ -
Gal 3;16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

In this way there is a "sense" of replacement because it was assumed that Abraham's physical children would all receive the promises. But again Paul clears that issue up -
Rom 9:7-8 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

So the promises - the land of rest, the blessings all of it are given directly to Jesus (He is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel, He truly is the REAL Israel) and because we, the church, are co-heirs with Christ we are also counted as the children of promise. So there is NO future for national, physical Israel apart from the church. One day they will be grafted back into their own olive tree, but they will do so by repentance and faith in Jesus.

Of course there was a remnant of the physical Jews that were genuinely born again at the time Christ created His church so what did they have to do? They had to make that transfer to the New Covenant. The Old was a shadow of good things to come (Heb 10:1) but the shadow is totally inadequate compared to the substance. And that is exactly what we see in the life of the apostles. That is why they stressed the liberty found in Christ and warn heavily against Judaizers.

Thus there really isn't a "replacement" per se, since all of physical Israel was NEVER intended to receive the promises cart blanche. Instead we have a faithful remnant of Jews to which were added Gentiles at the establishment of the church and the unbelieving were broken off until the time that they are grafted back in to their own olive tree. And Jesus told the religious leaders of the day very plainly "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." That nation is the church, the true holy nation (1 Peter 2:9), the household of God (Eph 2:19), the Israel of God (Gal 6:16).

Again, IF one holds to a strict/literal reading of prophecy, the Lord has keep seperate isreal proper and the Church, as isreal means the Faithful Jewish remnant, and Church are those saved by god under new Covenant, which includes BOTH gentiles and those jews!

So at THIS time, there is a single Body of believers saved out, Church, but when Christ returns to earth, He reigns and fulfills promises made to national isreal, so the truth is that what is happening right now is along what A Mil taech, but that is NOT what happens when he returns and sets up shop, that is how we teach!

And NOBODY here that is a Dispy teaches dual covenant theology, as today, ONLY saved by Grace thru faith in jesus counts for either jew/gentile!

and STILL looking to how today satan is bound, and that we are in the Messianic era, as the OT prophets foretold and saw!

 

[convicted1]

Again, IF one holds to a strict/literal reading of prophecy, the Lord has keep seperate isreal proper and the Church, as isreal means the Faithful Jewish remnant, and Church are those saved by god under new Covenant, which includes BOTH gentiles and those jews!

So at THIS time, there is a single Body of believers saved out, Church, but when Christ returns to earth, He reigns and fulfills promises made to national isreal, so the truth is that what is happening right now is along what A Mil taech, but that is NOT what happens when he returns and sets up shop, that is how we teach!

And NOBODY here that is a Dispy teaches dual covenant theology, as today, ONLY saved by Grace thru faith in jesus counts for either jew/gentile!

and STILL looking to how today satan is bound, and that we are in the Messianic era, as the OT prophets foretold and saw!

God has ONE covenant, with ONE people, being the Church. There's not promises, but promise, to the children of God(Church).

 

[RLBosley]

Again, IF one holds to a strict/literal reading of prophecy, the Lord has keep seperate isreal proper and the Church, as isreal means the Faithful Jewish remnant, and Church are those saved by god under new Covenant, which includes BOTH gentiles and those jews!

Not according to the New Testament.
A LITERAL interpretation of these passages proves as much:
Romans 11 Teaches ONE good Olive Tree. One People, forever.

Galatians 3 teaches that those who have the faith of Abraham are the children of Abraham (in other words, those that inherit the promises given to Abraham) and that Christ is the primary seed of Abraham and the one that receives the promise, not the nation of Israel. Thus our relation to the promises is dependant to our relation to Christ. To be in Christ means to be in Israel, the True, spiritual Israel. And that in Christ there is no division between Jew or Gentile.

Ephesians 2 teaches that the middle wall of partition has been permanently broken down forever creating "one new man, so making peace."

1 Peter 2 teaches that those who were not God's people previously have been now made God's people and are a "holy nation, royal priesthood, etc" all used to describe OT Israel.[/COLOR]

So at THIS time, there is a single Body of believers saved out, Church, but when Christ returns to earth, He reigns and fulfills promises made to national isreal, so the truth is that what is happening right now is along what A Mil taech, but that is NOT what happens when he returns and sets up shop, that is how we teach!

Negative. No promises were made to national Israel carte blanche, the basis of receiving those promises was ALWAYS by faith.

And NOBODY here that is a Dispy teaches dual covenant theology, as today, ONLY saved by Grace thru faith in jesus counts for either jew/gentile!

They may not teach it but they believe it. It's a core of dispensationalism. Even progressive dispy says that there is still a division between the two.

and STILL looking to how today satan is bound, and that we are in the Messianic era, as the OT prophets foretold and saw!

I never said any of that.

 

[Yeshua1]

Not according to the New Testament.
A LITERAL interpretation of these passages proves as much:
Romans 11 Teaches ONE good Olive Tree. One People, forever.

Galatians 3 teaches that those who have the faith of Abraham are the children of Abraham (in other words, those that inherit the promises given to Abraham) and that Christ is the primary seed of Abraham and the one that receives the promise, not the nation of Israel. Thus our relation to the promises is dependant to our relation to Christ. To be in Christ means to be in Israel, the True, spiritual Israel. And that in Christ there is no division between Jew or Gentile.

Ephesians 2 teaches that the middle wall of partition has been permanently broken down forever creating "one new man, so making peace."

1 Peter 2 teaches that those who were not God's people previously have been now made God's people and are a "holy nation, royal priesthood, etc" all used to describe OT Israel.[/COLOR]


Negative. No promises were made to national Israel carte blanche, the basis of receiving those promises was ALWAYS by faith.


They may not teach it but they believe it. It's a core of dispensationalism. Even progressive dispy says that there is still a division between the two.


I never said any of that.

dispy would hold that right now in the Age of Grace, BOTH Jews/gentiles that get saved are in the church/Bride of christ, but once rapture hits, that the jews living will all be saved when jesus comes back tio earth to reign, for those living at that time will ahve the earthly Kingdom, while the Church expereinces the Heavenly one!

Soa matter of timing, for right now both are in one body, but when god goes back to dealing with isreal, its that time when it changesto how god deals with "JUST" jews!

Are you A mil, or historical pre Mil?

 

[RLBosley]

dispy would hold that right now in the Age of Grace, BOTH Jews/gentiles that get saved are in the church/Bride of christ,..

So far so good.

but once rapture hits, that the jews living will all be saved when jesus comes back tio earth to reign, for those living at that time will ahve the earthly Kingdom, while the Church expereinces the Heavenly one!

Soa matter of timing, for right now both are in one body, but when god goes back to dealing with isreal, its that time when it changesto how god deals with "JUST" jews!

And that is error.

Are you A mil, or historical pre Mil?

Historic Premill.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Not according to the New Testament.
A LITERAL interpretation of these passages proves as much:
Romans 11 Teaches ONE good Olive Tree. One People, forever.

No....and verse one literally disproves this from the get-go...
Rom 11:1 ¶ I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
Whatever Paul is teaching......he starts the whole thing off by saying God has NOT "cast away" his people (that's Israelites)....Now pay attention..Paul qualifies this by naming his TRIBE (Benjamin)....If successionism is correct...than WHY would Paul qualify his status as an "Israelite" by naming his actual TRIBE of PHYSICAL ORIGIN???? Aren't we supposedly DONE with that by now if replacement Theology is correct???? Wouldn't Paul tell us he is an "Israelite" because he is a follower of Christ now???

Ephesians 2 teaches that the middle wall of partition has been permanently broken down forever creating "one new man, so making peace."

In the sense that Salvation is equally for BOTH Jew and Gentile found in Christ yes...But this entire Chapter does NOTHING to rob (National) Israel of it's unique identity. Only if one pre-supposes the truth of "Replacement" Theology...does this seem to do so.

1 Peter 2

teaches that those who were not God's people previously have been now made God's people and are a "holy nation, royal priesthood, etc" all used to describe OT Israel.[/COLOR]

1 Peter uses clear OT verbiage and symbols to describe God's relationship to the NT saved...but this is NOT sufficient evidence to identify Israel and all saved persons as one and the same. Especially in light of the fact that the book of Acts decidedly and repeatedly identifies Jews and the Church as being two distinct groups...One has to IGNORE the entire book of Acts and the REPEATED New Testament listings of
1.) Jews
2.) Gentiles
3.) The elect/saved

The book of Acts was written AFTER the founding of the Chuch....therefore, if "replacement Theology" be correct....than there is now simply NO reason to distinguish between the "Israelite" or "Jew" and the "Church" and the "Gentile"...and yet the book of Acts ALWAYS delieates....

If the Saints have "superceeded" Israel, than there is no reason for Luke to continue the distinction. And yet, he does.

Negative. No promises were made to national Israel carte blanche, the basis of receiving those promises was ALWAYS by faith.

Negative.....the initial covenant to Israel was NOT..."carte blanche"...it was indeed conditional...and they did indeed break it....But God made NEW covenants with them which were UNCONDITIONAL.
Jer 31:31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
If "Israel" is the NT Church here...than why is this "New" covenant ALSO to the house of JUDAH???? Is the NT Church "JUDAH" also???Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
This Covenant is NOT according the the previous one, which was indeed conditional...it is unconditional.

This is demonstrated in vss...33-37 which I skip only for brevity.

What Jeremiah promises to Israel CERTAINLY seems to say NOTHING about an eternal Spiritualized state of salvation....but rather a VERY REAL and ACTUAL physical city....see what he promises them:
Jer 31:38 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
Jer 31:39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
Does God then Promise us New Testament Christians an identifiable and actual physical city whose dimensions God has already specified????
I think not.

 

[Yeshua1]

No....and verse one literally disproves this from the get-go...
Rom 11:1 ¶ I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
Whatever Paul is teaching......he starts the whole thing off by saying God has NOT "cast away" his people (that's Israelites)....Now pay attention..Paul qualifies this by naming his TRIBE (Benjamin)....If successionism is correct...than WHY would Paul qualify his status as an "Israelite" by naming his actual TRIBE of PHYSICAL ORIGIN???? Aren't we supposedly DONE with that by now if replacement Theology is correct???? Wouldn't Paul tell us he is an "Israelite" because he is a follower of Christ now???

In the sense that Salvation is equally for BOTH Jew and Gentile found in Christ yes...But this entire Chapter does NOTHING to rob (National) Israel of it's unique identity. Only if one pre-supposes the truth of "Replacement" Theology...does this seem to do so.
1 Peter uses clear OT verbiage and symbols to describe God's relationship to the NT saved...but this is NOT sufficient evidence to identify Israel and all saved persons as one and the same. Especially in light of the fact that the book of Acts decidedly and repeatedly identifies Jews and the Church as being two distinct groups...One has to IGNORE the entire book of Acts and the REPEATED New Testament listings of
1.) Jews
2.) Gentiles
3.) The elect/saved

The book of Acts was written AFTER the founding of the Chuch....therefore, if "replacement Theology" be correct....than there is now simply NO reason to distinguish between the "Israelite" or "Jew" and the "Church" and the "Gentile"...and yet the book of Acts ALWAYS delieates....

If the Saints have "superceeded" Israel, than there is no reason for Luke to continue the distinction. And yet, he does.

Negative.....the initial covenant to Israel was NOT..."carte blanche"...it was indeed conditional...and they did indeed break it....But God made NEW covenants with them which were UNCONDITIONAL.
Jer 31:31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
If "Israel" is the NT Church here...than why is this "New" covenant ALSO to the house of JUDAH???? Is the NT Church "JUDAH" also???Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
This Covenant is NOT according the the previous one, which was indeed conditional...it is unconditional.

This is demonstrated in vss...33-37 which I skip only for brevity.

What Jeremiah promises to Israel CERTAINLY seems to say NOTHING about an eternal Spiritualized state of salvation....but rather a VERY REAL and ACTUAL physical city....see what he promises them:
Jer 31:38 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
Jer 31:39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
Does God then Promise us New Testament Christians an identifiable and actual physical city whose dimensions God has already specified????
I think not.

the kingdom God promised to national isreal was NOT taken away and given to the Church, but the Church was started up in this Age of grace for her, and once removed from here, THEn the promised Kingdom will come back unto the jewish nation , just as promised to by God!

Our A Mil friends see correctly in this Age, just One Body/Church, bu that after rapture, or second coming depending on your timing. THEN Kingdom Age starts!

 

[RLBosley]

Jesus absolutely said the kingdom is taken from the Jews.
Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

And the kingdom, in veiled form, is a reality now! at the return of Christ, the Kingdom will invade in power and be manifested physically. But the kingdom is already present. Jesus said so to the Jews during His ministry.
Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

 

[MB]

Not according to the New Testament.
A LITERAL interpretation of these passages proves as much:
Romans 11 Teaches ONE good Olive Tree. One People, forever.

Note that forever. Forever is how long? Why it's forever. LOL:laugh:

Galatians 3 teaches that those who have the faith of Abraham are the children of Abraham (in other words, those that inherit the promises given to Abraham) and that Christ is the primary seed of Abraham and the one that receives the promise, not the nation of Israel. Thus our relation to the promises is dependant to our relation to Christ. To be in Christ means to be in Israel, the True, spiritual Israel. And that in Christ there is no division between Jew or Gentile.

Yet no where does the Bible say that Gentiles become Jews. Abraham was not a Jew. His grandson from His son Isaac by the name of Jacob was the beginning of the nation of Israel. the beginning of Jews. Wake up and smell the coffee Abraham was the father of many nations including Arabs.

Ephesians 2 teaches that the middle wall of partition has been permanently broken down forever creating "one new man, so making peace."

This just means we are all equals in the matter of Salvation. it does not mean we become Jews.

1 Peter 2 teaches that those who were not God's people previously have been now made God's people and are a "holy nation, royal priesthood, etc" all used to describe OT Israel.[/COLOR]

Thats because he is speaking to Israel;
1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
1Pe 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
This verse is proof Peter was speaking to Jews not Gentiles

Negative. No promises were made to national Israel carte blanche, the basis of receiving those promises was ALWAYS by faith.


They may not teach it but they believe it. It's a core of dispensationalism. Even progressive dispy says that there is still a division between the two.


I never said any of that.

I do because your proof texting leaves a lot to be desired. None of it works with out a supposed notion of truth. Admit it you believe it because you are jealous of the Jews for being God's chosen people. All you can produce here is a suspicion. None of this is true at all it's just a bunch of nonsense.
MB

 

[RLBosley]

Note that forever. Forever is how long? Why it's forever. LOL:laugh:

Yet no where does the Bible say that Gentiles become Jews. Abraham was not a Jew. His grandson from His son Isaac by the name of Jacob was the beginning of the nation of Israel. the beginning of Jews. Wake up and smell the coffee Abraham was the father of many nations including Arabs.

And AGAIN, no one is saying that Gentiles become Jews. So stop with the strawman and actually debate.

This just means we are all equals in the matter of Salvation. it does not mean we become Jews.

See above

Thats because he is speaking to Israel;
1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
1Pe 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
This verse is proof Peter was speaking to Jews not Gentiles

Speaking to Israel huh?
1 Peter 2:10-11 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

"In times past were not a people" and "had not obtained mercy" and "as strangers." This was addressed to Israel huh? Only if they were NEVER the people of God could this have been addressed to Israel. Peter is speaking here to Gentiles (in the flesh) who have now been adopted by God into the household of God (the Church). The term "gentiles" there has the connotation of unbelievers or heathens. Again Peter is using OT terms for the NT reality. In the OT Physical Israel were the people of God, the Gentiles were unbelievers and heathens. Now in the NT all believers compose the spiritual Israel, God's holy nation, and the unbelievers are spiritual Gentiles whether they be Jew or gentile according to the flesh.

I do because your proof texting leaves a lot to be desired. None of it works with out a supposed notion of truth. Admit it you believe it because you are jealous of the Jews for being God's chosen people. All you can produce here is a suspicion. None of this is true at all it's just a bunch of nonsense.
MB

Did you even think before typing that? I mean really? I am certainly not Jealous of any one Jew or Gentile because I am already a member of God's chosen people! The church is called the elect of God (Col 3:12) remember? Elect means chosen!

And as a part of the church I have an incredibly glorious future, as do you. Not just a promise of land, but a Sabbath rest in Christ and a dwelling place with God without disease, death or dandruff! :tongue3: Praise God!

 

[Benjamin]

No....and verse one literally disproves this from the get-go...
Rom 11:1 ¶ I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
Whatever Paul is teaching......he starts the whole thing off by saying God has NOT "cast away" his people (that's Israelites)....Now pay attention..Paul qualifies this by naming his TRIBE (Benjamin)....If successionism is correct...than WHY would Paul qualify his status as an "Israelite" by naming his actual TRIBE of PHYSICAL ORIGIN???? Aren't we supposedly DONE with that by now if replacement Theology is correct???? Wouldn't Paul tell us he is an "Israelite" because he is a follower of Christ now???

I knew my ears where burning – …OH, you were talking about that Benjamin…:smilewinkgrin:

Beginning in Romans 11:1 Paul is about to get into the progressive revelation of Jesus Christ and speaks of God’s people being the children of faith/seeds of Abraham. Paul is beginning to explain WHO God’s people are and have always been and WHO the promise applies to. Paul is clearly,… (well – this may as good a place of any to draw attention to the mystery spoken of in 1Cor 2 about looking through a glass dimly and that eye hath not seen or ear heard about this progressive revelation of Jesus coming to be the Lamb for ALL God’s “PEOPLE” (those of faith/true Israel/the seeds of Abraham)… revealing exactly WHO is “true” Israel is!

....Now pay attention..Paul qualifies this by naming his TRIBE (Benjamin)....If successionism is correct...than WHY would Paul qualify his status as an "Israelite" by naming his actual TRIBE of PHYSICAL ORIGIN????

EXACTLY! Paul is explaining WHO God’s people actually are to the Jews, he is telling them - HEY! I am one of you! Do you think I am excluding myself?! NO! You guys are stuck on your pedigrees for your way of salvation and it’s NEVER been about that! I’m telling you about the mystery (now revealed) which God prepared before the foundation of the world WHO God’s people are and there is no difference between Jews and Greeks – God’s people are, and have been the children of faith! – His promise is based on faith and NOW we know it is Jesus Christ (Whose Name) that faith must be placed in – this happening (which is a stumbling block to youse guys) has come about and has been revealed. You guys need to be putting together the big picture of HOW this works – and salvation ain’t coming about because of you being God’s chosen people, salvation never worked by the law, salvation never came through your pedigree NOR has salvation EVER come because of those ways little “Israelites”!!! – it comes to all through faith and it has ALWAYS been that way. – Paul is breaking out the Windex for these Jews…

The Jews (and Dispies) have a hard time letting go of the thoughts that God is some type of respecter of persons. As I previously mentioned when addressing the WHO seeds of Abraham where John took the Jews to task on this issue also.

Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Dispies are notorious about taking a passage like Romans 11 and attempting to dissect it as per presumptuous Scofield principles which set out to separate the people of God and which by all intents and purposes ends up to create dual covenants BUT the principles they should be “rightly dividing” the scripture by is to make straight clean cut into the Word and to examine it as a whole – that is the way to come to understand how the pieces work together in one body.

Aww, man! – that’s all I got time for and I was barely getting warmed on your first two sentences – shoot! :laugh::smilewinkgrin:

 

[RLBosley]

I knew my ears where burning – …OH, you were talking about that Benjamin…:smilewinkgrin:

Beginning in Romans 11:1 Paul is about to get into the progressive revelation of Jesus Christ and speaks of God’s people being the children of faith/seeds of Abraham. Paul is beginning to explain WHO God’s people are and have always been and WHO the promise applies to. Paul is clearly,… (well – this may as good a place of any to draw attention to the mystery spoken of in 1Cor 2 about looking through a glass dimly and that eye hath not seen or ear heard about this progressive revelation of Jesus coming to be the Lamb for ALL God’s “PEOPLE” (those of faith/true Israel/the seeds of Abraham)… revealing exactly WHO is “true” Israel is!

....Now pay attention..Paul qualifies this by naming his TRIBE (Benjamin)....If successionism is correct...than WHY would Paul qualify his status as an "Israelite" by naming his actual TRIBE of PHYSICAL ORIGIN????

EXACTLY! Paul is explaining WHO God’s people actually are to the Jews, he is telling them - HEY! I am one of you! Do you think I am excluding myself?! NO! You guys are stuck on your pedigrees for your way of salvation and it’s NEVER been about that! I’m telling you about the mystery (now revealed) which God prepared before the foundation of the world WHO God’s people are and there is no difference between Jews and Greeks – God’s people are, and have been the children of faith! – His promise is based on faith and NOW we know it is Jesus Christ (Whose Name) that faith must be placed in – this happening (which is a stumbling block to youse guys) has come about and has been revealed. You guys need to be putting together the big picture of HOW this works – and salvation ain’t coming about because of you being God’s chosen people, salvation never worked by the law, salvation never came through your pedigree NOR has salvation EVER come because of those ways little “Israelites”!!! – it comes to all through faith and it has ALWAYS been that way. – Paul is breaking out the Windex for these Jews…

The Jews (and Dispies) have a hard time letting go of the thoughts that God is some type of respecter of persons. As I previously mentioned when addressing the WHO seeds of Abraham where John took the Jews to task on this issue also.

Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Dispies are notorious about taking a passage like Romans 11 and attempting to dissect it as per presumptuous Scofield principles which set out to separate the people of God and which by all intents and purposes ends up to create dual covenants BUT the principles they should be “rightly dividing” the scripture by is to make straight clean cut into the Word and to examine it as a whole – that is the way to come to understand how the pieces work together in one body.

Aww, man! – that’s all I got time for and I was barely getting warmed on your first two sentences – shoot! :laugh::smilewinkgrin:

Excellent :thumbsup: