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Replacement Theology--Heresy?
- Thread starter Tim
- Start date
I have been a Baptist for most of my life (long before ever hearing of Jack Van Impe or anyone else you care to name & probably longer than you've existed on the planet, too) and never heard of the "doctrine" of Replacement Theology until I joined this board. The majority of Southern Baptists and IFBs and GARBs do not believe in Replacement Theology, nor is it preached from their pulpits. Those who call themselves Baptist and post here wouldn't dare bring the "doctrine" of Replacement Theology up in the majority of Baptist Churches in America, but it's easy to get on a cyberboard and post such garbage.
(PS: If this were MY board, I'd require a faxed copy of your membership from your local Baptist congregation & a letter of recommendation from your Baptist pastor before you'd be allowed to post on my board. And probably require your fingerprints and indenturing of your firstborn, too.)
Neither do you or you would take words like “soon”, “near”, “at hand” literally. But we both know you do not.
So spare me lecture of how you take the Bible literally.
Then perhaps you should not spew it if you don’t want it back. Secondly,everything I posted is accurate. You label people Jew-haters because they don’t agree with you:
The doctrine of replacement theology is just a euphamism/excuse for Jew hatred.
Perhaps Jew-hater is not a venomous term to you but forgive me if I take it as such.
Why don’t you start at Rev 1:1,3 and tell me how literally you take those passages. Then we will work our way through Revelation, ok? Unless of course you're afraid you might come across as a hypocrite.
Funny, I came to the preterist view(not Replacement theology) listening to a sermon series from a Southern Baptist preacher who happened to be twice elected as president of the Southern Baptist Convention of his state.
Not every preacher gets his eschatology from the Scofield study notes.
Very simply, Scripture says God's gonna restore both Judah and Israel, not because they deserve it, but in order to PROVE HIS POWER TO THEM AND THE REST OF THE WORLD. He will restore them not for THEIR sakes but for HIMSELF.
One would hafta be crazy to not believe God is restoring Judah(modern Israel} right now.
God has a whole set of prophecies pertaining to Judah and Israel alone, as a physical, literal, and distinct people. OTOH, Christianity applies to ALL mankind. Christianity does NOT replace God's promises to literal Israel; it replaces the methods of worshipping Him.
The proof is undeniable and overwhelming. In 57 years, judah has gone from a collection of villages & kibbutzim(collective farms) to the 3rd-mightiest military power of all time, becoming wealthier day by day, just as God said some 2700 years ago.
One would hafta be crazy to not believe God is restoring Judah(modern Israel} right now.
God has a whole set of prophecies pertaining to Judah and Israel alone, as a physical, literal, and distinct people. OTOH, Christianity applies to ALL mankind. Christianity does NOT replace God's promises to literal Israel; it replaces the methods of worshipping Him.
The proof is undeniable and overwhelming. In 57 years, judah has gone from a collection of villages & kibbutzim(collective farms) to the 3rd-mightiest military power of all time, becoming wealthier day by day, just as God said some 2700 years ago.
I trust that the name-calling and "venomous" speech will cease heretofore.
I have not carefully read every post, but Replacement Theology is a heresy.
Simply put it is the theology that the Church has replaced the nation of Israel. That is not true. The nation of Israel still exists today. Our Saviour came from the nation of Israel. Paul identifies three groups of people in the New Testament: the Jews, the Gentiles, and the Church of God. Both Jews and the Church existed at the same time. One did not replace the other. Israel as a nation still exists. How can one say it was replaced. It is a ridiculous notion that leads only to anti-semtism (for which I beieve the doctrine was created).
Judaism is a religion. It may be a false religion as it exists today, but it is a religion nevertheless. It has gone astray from God. But throughout history it has gone astray many times. This is not the first time. Paul warned for the Gentiles not to boast of themselves. We are only a branch that is grafted into the tree. Don't boast of your position in the grand scheme of things. Christ is coming for "his own" at the Second Coming.
We (the church) have not "replaced" Israel. That is indeed a heresy. God has set them aside for just a short period of time in his great timeline of events. It is God that is in control; not you or I controlling God.
DHK
I have not carefully read every post, but Replacement Theology is a heresy.
Simply put it is the theology that the Church has replaced the nation of Israel. That is not true. The nation of Israel still exists today. Our Saviour came from the nation of Israel. Paul identifies three groups of people in the New Testament: the Jews, the Gentiles, and the Church of God. Both Jews and the Church existed at the same time. One did not replace the other. Israel as a nation still exists. How can one say it was replaced. It is a ridiculous notion that leads only to anti-semtism (for which I beieve the doctrine was created).
Judaism is a religion. It may be a false religion as it exists today, but it is a religion nevertheless. It has gone astray from God. But throughout history it has gone astray many times. This is not the first time. Paul warned for the Gentiles not to boast of themselves. We are only a branch that is grafted into the tree. Don't boast of your position in the grand scheme of things. Christ is coming for "his own" at the Second Coming.
We (the church) have not "replaced" Israel. That is indeed a heresy. God has set them aside for just a short period of time in his great timeline of events. It is God that is in control; not you or I controlling God.
DHK
Regarding the original question, so called "Replacement Theology" is not heresy, no more than dispensational Premill is heresy.
Actualy the veneration of Israel that is found in modern day dispensational Premill is a rather new theology. Historic Premill that the early Fathers believed as well as that of Gill and Spurgeon all saw the Church as not replacing Israel but as the fulfilment of Israel. This is true also in Amill and Postmill theology. Postmill has believed in a spiritual revival among the Jews near the end of time (Charles Hodge Systm Theology) BUT not that they would be separate from the Church.
To say it is antisemitic is just slander and to say it is heresy shows a lack of knowledge of the term. I am always amazed how lightly Baptists used the term heresy.
Actualy the veneration of Israel that is found in modern day dispensational Premill is a rather new theology. Historic Premill that the early Fathers believed as well as that of Gill and Spurgeon all saw the Church as not replacing Israel but as the fulfilment of Israel. This is true also in Amill and Postmill theology. Postmill has believed in a spiritual revival among the Jews near the end of time (Charles Hodge Systm Theology) BUT not that they would be separate from the Church.
To say it is antisemitic is just slander and to say it is heresy shows a lack of knowledge of the term. I am always amazed how lightly Baptists used the term heresy.
Charles Meadows
New Member
We (the church) have not "replaced" Israel. That is indeed a heresy.
No DHK it is not a heresy. There are not a few problems with seeing Israel as having been replaced. But there are also reasons that commend it.
Israel is to be restored. Jesus clearly considered Himself to have replaced the Torah and the temple (both places where YHWH was said to exist). With His entry into Jerusalem there is strong reason to see this as the return of YHWH to Zion.
This is an area of debate, that's for sure. But replacement theology is no more a heresy than rapturism, or pretrib premillenialism, both of which are widely held despite strong scriptural problems with them.
No DHK it is not a heresy. There are not a few problems with seeing Israel as having been replaced. But there are also reasons that commend it.
Israel is to be restored. Jesus clearly considered Himself to have replaced the Torah and the temple (both places where YHWH was said to exist). With His entry into Jerusalem there is strong reason to see this as the return of YHWH to Zion.
This is an area of debate, that's for sure. But replacement theology is no more a heresy than rapturism, or pretrib premillenialism, both of which are widely held despite strong scriptural problems with them.
Source </font>[/QUOTE]LE, to be fair your post defining "Replacement Theology" is from Clarence H. Wagner, Jr. who is against "Replacement Theology", in order to have a fair debate you must hear from both sides of the argument, so hear is Answering the "Replacement Theology" Critics by Gary DeMar:
http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/10-07-05.asp
LE,
Your definition was written by a dispensationalist who was trying to discredit an opposing view. I doubt you could find any supercessionist who would say that he believed what Wagner defined as his belief.
As I said before, a straw man is easy to burn. Too bad we can't just burn all the non-dispensationalists as heretics and be done with it.
Your definition was written by a dispensationalist who was trying to discredit an opposing view. I doubt you could find any supercessionist who would say that he believed what Wagner defined as his belief.
As I said before, a straw man is easy to burn. Too bad we can't just burn all the non-dispensationalists as heretics and be done with it.
The opposing view of Replacement Theology is discredited because it has no basis in Scripture. The Early Church consisted of Jews. It was not until the Gentiles assumed church leadership that anti-semitism, such as the heresy of "replacement theology" took over and spread like wildfire.
I'm thankful the majority of Baptists don't believe in such nonsense. (And yes, the SBC, IFB, and GARBs comprise the MAJORITY Baptists in America.)
But if any good ole Baptist Brother really believes in this fiction, try bringing up the subject in your Southern Baptist, IFB, or GARB Sunday School/Bible Study Class next Sunday and see what happens. It ought to be a pretty exciting hour.
I'm thankful the majority of Baptists don't believe in such nonsense. (And yes, the SBC, IFB, and GARBs comprise the MAJORITY Baptists in America.)
But if any good ole Baptist Brother really believes in this fiction, try bringing up the subject in your Southern Baptist, IFB, or GARB Sunday School/Bible Study Class next Sunday and see what happens. It ought to be a pretty exciting hour.
RC,
The fact that Israel exists as a state today does not make it automatically qualify as the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. If you search the scriptures for specific references to the restoration of Israel, you'll find most of them have a very specific historical context. The majority of those prophecies clearly refer to Israel's restoration after the Babylonian captivity. A preparation for the first coming of Christ.
You'll also notice that most refer to Israel being restored in association with a spiritual renewal as was true under Ezra and Nehemiah, but is clearly not true today. Tragically, modern Israel is still steeped in Christless Judaism. Just like any other nation, they need to turn to Christ for salvation. That is the only way to be one of God's "chosen people" under the terms of the New Covenant.
The fact that Israel exists as a state today does not make it automatically qualify as the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. If you search the scriptures for specific references to the restoration of Israel, you'll find most of them have a very specific historical context. The majority of those prophecies clearly refer to Israel's restoration after the Babylonian captivity. A preparation for the first coming of Christ.
You'll also notice that most refer to Israel being restored in association with a spiritual renewal as was true under Ezra and Nehemiah, but is clearly not true today. Tragically, modern Israel is still steeped in Christless Judaism. Just like any other nation, they need to turn to Christ for salvation. That is the only way to be one of God's "chosen people" under the terms of the New Covenant.
Actually Premill beliefs were in the minority among Baptists from 1600-1800's and even that Premill theology was not dispensational Premill. So Lady Eagle you just declared the majority of our Baptist ancestors, heretics.
It was not until Darby/Scofield version of Premill became popular in the later 1800's and early 1900's that we received this veneration of the Israel.
To accuse the early Church Fathers of anti-semitism is a serious accusation. In fact it is a falsehood and dishonors many of them who were martyrs for the faith. The fact is many of them were Premill but the dispensational version that venerates Israel did not exist. Yes, many of them were tough on the Jews in their writings but that is because some of the earliest persecuters of Christians were Jews and the Jewish Talmud is a blasphemous book that mocks Jesus Christ. They realized that Judaism like Islam is a false religion.
It was not until Darby/Scofield version of Premill became popular in the later 1800's and early 1900's that we received this veneration of the Israel.
To accuse the early Church Fathers of anti-semitism is a serious accusation. In fact it is a falsehood and dishonors many of them who were martyrs for the faith. The fact is many of them were Premill but the dispensational version that venerates Israel did not exist. Yes, many of them were tough on the Jews in their writings but that is because some of the earliest persecuters of Christians were Jews and the Jewish Talmud is a blasphemous book that mocks Jesus Christ. They realized that Judaism like Islam is a false religion.