Replacement Theology.......or-

[Iconoclast]

I did not want to disrupt the other thread so-

http://replacementtheology.org/
This theme of Jew / Gentile unity is replayed so many times in the New Testament. To reject the premise of one people of God is almost to reject the message of Christianity. Here are just a few passages that show this overwhelming theme of unity.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
Romans 3:22
This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

The sovereignty of God described in Romans 9 has more to do with God’s choice to make one people out of two!

Romans 9:22-27 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:

“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”

A verse in Romans 15 makes it very clear that the New Testament Church (made up predominantly of Gentiles) didn’t “replace” the Jews, but shared the blessing of the Jews.

Romans 15:27

They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews’ spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings. (Underline mine.)

Through the Church, God had made one people out of two.

1 Corinthians 12:13

For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11

Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

The most convincing passage of God’s sovereign plan to have one people of God is found in Ephesians 3.

Eph 3:6

This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Again, there is no “Replacement” going on here.Gentiles were "heirs together" with Israel.The Gospel made Jews and Gentiles part of the same family as joint heirs. Jews and Gentiles also were “one body” in Christ. One can conclude that neither are Jews and Gentiles "two bodies" with two timelines and two plans of salvation. “Replacement Theology” contends that the Church has taken over the promises given the Jews.How can this be when Eph 3:6 saysthat the church – made up of believing Jews and Gentiles – are now sharers together in the promise of Christ Jesus?

 

[Iconoclast]

here is an offering fromR. Scott Clark;
Covenant Theology Is Not Replacement Theology

Recently I had a question asking whether “covenant theology” is so-called “replacement theology.” Those dispensational critics of Reformed covenant theology who accuse it of teaching that the New Covenant church has “replaced” Israel do not understand historic Reformed covenant theology. They are imputing to Reformed theology a way of thinking about redemptive history that has more in common with dispensationalism than it does with Reformed theology.

First, the very category of “replacement” is foreign to Reformed theology because it assumes a dispensational, Israeleo-centric way of thinking. It assumes that the temporary, national people was, in fact, intended to be the permanent arrangement. Such a way of thinking is contrary to the promise in Gen. 3:15. The promise was that there would be a Savior. The national people was only a means to that end, not an end in itself. According to Paul in Ephesians 2:11-22, in Christ the dividing wall has been destroyed. It cannot be rebuilt. The two peoples (Jews and Gentiles) have been made one in Christ. Among those who are united to Christ by grace alone, through faith alone, there is no Jew nor Gentile (Rom. 10:12; Gal. 3:28; Col. 3:11).

At least some forms of dispensationalism have suggested that God intended the national covenant with Israel to be permanent. According to Reformed theology, the Mosaic covenant was never intended to be permanent. According to Galatians 3 (and chapter 4), the Mosaic covenant was a codicil to the Abrahamic covenant. A codicil is added to an existing document. It doesn’t replace the existing document. Dispensationalism reverses things. It makes the Abrahamic covenant a codicil to the Mosaic. Hebrews 3 says that Moses was a worker in Jesus’ house. Dispensationalism makes Jesus a worker in Moses’ house.

Second, with respect to salvation, Reformed covenant theology does not juxtapose Israel and the church. For Reformed theology, the church has always been the Israel of God and the Israel of God has always been the church. Reformed covenant theology distinguishes the old and new covenants (2 Cor. 3; Heb. 7-10). It recognizes that the church was temporarily administered through a typological, national people, but the church has existed since Adam, Noah, and Abraham; and it existed under Moses and David; and it exists under Christ.

Third, the church has always been one, under various administrations, under types, shadows, and now under the reality in Christ, because the object of faith has always been one. Jesus the Messiah was the object of faith of the typological church (Heb. 11; Luke 24; 2 Cor. 3), and he remains the object of faith.

Fourth, despite the abrogation of the national covenant by the obedience, death, and resurrection of Christ (Col. 2:14), the NT church has not “replaced” the Jews. Paul says that God “grafted” the Gentiles into the people of God. Grafting is not replacement, it is addition.

It has been widely held by Reformed theologians that there will be a great conversion of Jews. Some call this “anti-Semitism.” This isn’t anti-Semitism, it is Christianity. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6). The alternative to Jesus’ exclusivist claim is universalism, which is nothing less than an assault on the person and finished work of Christ. Other Reformed writers understand the promises in Rom. 11 to refer only to the salvation of all the elect (Rom. 2:28) rather than to a future conversion of Jews. In any event, Reformed theology is not anti-semitic. We have always hoped and prayed for the salvation, in Christ, sola gratia et sola fide, of all of God’s elect, Jew and Gentile alike.

 

[kyredneck]

I did not want to disrupt the other thread

The other thread is now closed. Dispies (moderators/administrators included) dominate this board.

Again, there is no “Replacement” going on here.Gentiles were "heirs together" with Israel.

Wrong. Why the 'kid gloves'? Who're you trying to appease? The Judaizers? The Zionists? The Dispsentionalists?

If this is not being 'replaced' then I don't understand the meaning of the word:

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mt 21

Just as God rent the kingdom from the house of Saul and gave it to the house of David so He did with the house of apostate Judiaiasm to the house of Christ:

28 And Samuel said unto him, Jehovah hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbor of thine, that is better than thou. 1 Sam 15

No ifs, ors, or buts about it.

And we'll delve deeper into the 'second borns chosen over the first borns' if you wish.

 

[Yeshua1]

It would be considered such IF those who hold to it see that God totally had thrown away dealing with nation of Israel now....

 

[Iconoclast]

"kyredneck,
Hello Kyred,

The other thread is now closed. Dispies (moderators/administrators included) dominate this board.

stay tuned for part two...lol....it was just beginning....lots to consider yet.

Wrong. Why the 'kid gloves'? Who're you trying to appease? The Judaizers? The Zionists? The Dispsentionalists?

I believe it is helpful to raise the issues and give many a chance to work through what they have held to, but question it

If this is not being 'replaced' then I don't understand the meaning of the word:

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mt 21

using the olive tree of Romans 11.......unbelievers were broken off.....and replaced by believing gentiles.....but it is not like the olive tree was "replaced" by a plumb tree

28 And Samuel said unto him, Jehovah hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbor of thine, that is better than thou. 1 Sam 15

No ifs, ors, or buts about it.

 

[robycop3]

I believe the founding of modern Israel (Judah) with Jerusalem as its capital, against all human odds, is undeniable proof God is not through with Israel. He gave specific prophecies for both Israel & Judah, and there's no substituting any other people for those whom GOD specifically prophesied about.

The Gospel & the Church was given to the Jews first, then to gentiles. While the majority of Jews today reject Jesus as Messiah, SO DO MOST GENTILES. But the Church does NOT replace Israel in prophecy, simple as THAT. Israel and Jerusalem figure quite prominently in the coming fulfillments of the eschatological prophecies.

 

[Iconoclast]

I believe the founding of modern Israel (Judah) with Jerusalem as its capital, against all human odds, is undeniable proof God is not through with Israel. He gave specific prophecies for both Israel & Judah, and there's no substituting any other people for those whom GOD specifically prophesied about.

The Gospel & the Church was given to the Jews first, then to gentiles. While the majority of Jews today reject Jesus as Messiah, SO DO MOST GENTILES. But the Church does NOT replace Israel in prophecy, simple as THAT. Israel and Jerusalem figure quite prominently in the coming fulfillments of the eschatological prophecies.

If they get grafted in....they will be grafted in to the church

 

[percho]

A-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Z

Does anyone believe that what took, takes and will take place between the two is dependent upon the actions of man?
Does someone replace someone else?

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Can A to Z be seen in that verse?

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; ------ A to Z? Could the futility be the devil.

Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. ---- Why?

Isa 46:8-10 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors. Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Did God call a people out of Egypt (Sin) the only people of all the people of the earth, that he knew, to scatter them throughout the earth and replace them with someone else or will he choose a remnant of them to rule with him and regather the rest along with the residue of men, from
A-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Z????????????????

Read backward from Acts 15:18 - 7 or read it from 7 - 18 and think backward.

Before the foundation of the world what was the plan of God and has man caused him to change any of his plan?

 

[Iconoclast]

A-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Z

Does anyone believe that what took, takes and will take place between the two is dependent upon the actions of man?
Does someone replace someone else?

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Can A to Z be seen in that verse?

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; ------ A to Z? Could the futility be the devil.

Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. ---- Why?

Isa 46:8-10 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors. Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Did God call a people out of Egypt (Sin) the only people of all the people of the earth, that he knew, to scatter them throughout the earth and replace them with someone else or will he choose a remnant of them to rule with him and regather the rest along with the residue of men, from
A-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Z????????????????

Read backward from Acts 15:18 - 7 or read it from 7 - 18 and think backward.

Before the foundation of the world what was the plan of God and has man caused him to change any of his plan?

An all knowing God.....never changes His plan....this is unbiblical thought and carnal reasoning.
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

 

[percho]

An all knowing God.....never changes His plan....this is unbiblical thought and carnal reasoning.
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

If I had to choose one verse that says it all it would be Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Also Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.


I believe the plan from the foundation of the world was: The Son, the elect. the chosen and the residue of men.

No replacement just the plan.

 

[percho]

Is there a purpose to the closing of threads?

 

[kyredneck]

I believe the founding of modern Israel (Judah) with Jerusalem as its capital, against all human odds,....

Ah, the sensationalism of dispensationalism. The fact is the Israelis had a significant advantage over the Arabs before the 1948 war even began and this advantage has become much greater since.

 

[Aaron]

First, the very category of “replacement” is foreign to Reformed theology because it assumes a dispensational, Israeleo-centric way of thinking. It assumes that the temporary, national people was, in fact, intended to be the permanent arrangement. Such a way of thinking is contrary to the promise in Gen. 3:15.

Exactly.

Also Gen. 12:3.

 

[Iconoclast]

Exactly.

Also Gen. 12:3.

That which was given as a type, gets exalted above the reality.

 

[Iconoclast]

I believe the founding of modern Israel (Judah) with Jerusalem as its capital, against all human odds, is undeniable proof God is not through with Israel. He gave specific prophecies for both Israel & Judah, and there's no substituting any other people for those whom GOD specifically prophesied about.

The Gospel & the Church was given to the Jews first, then to gentiles. While the majority of Jews today reject Jesus as Messiah, SO DO MOST GENTILES. But the Church does NOT replace Israel in prophecy, simple as THAT. Israel and Jerusalem figure quite prominently in the coming fulfillments of the eschatological prophecies.

Hello Roby,
Do you believe consistently that all old Testament types are the reality because they came on the scene first.....
For example.....do we look to the bronze serpent of numbers 21.....or do we look to the cross?
That bronze serpent was destroyed in 1 kings 18:4.....
So why this exalting of the OT types....
The Rc church makes a small tabernacle to hold the host on the altar....we do not want to go there do we?
Israel might be grafted in near the end....Scripture says God is able to graft them in......but there is no guarantee.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The other thread is now closed. Dispies (moderators/administrators included) dominate this board.



Wrong. Why the 'kid gloves'? Who're you trying to appease? The Judaizers? The Zionists? The Dispsentionalists?

If this is not being 'replaced' then I don't understand the meaning of the word:

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mt 21

Just as God rent the kingdom from the house of Saul and gave it to the house of David so He did with the house of apostate Judiaiasm to the house of Christ:

28 And Samuel said unto him, Jehovah hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbor of thine, that is better than thou. 1 Sam 15

No ifs, ors, or buts about it.

And we'll delve deeper into the 'second borns chosen over the first borns' if you wish.

NOW YOU TALKING SOM SENSE!!!

 

[Iconoclast]

That was a wrong reference....it is 2 kings 18:4

 

[Iconoclast]

This was not answered yet....

At least some forms of dispensationalism have suggested that God intended the national covenant with Israel to be permanent. According to Reformed theology, the Mosaic covenant was never intended to be permanent. According to Galatians 3 (and chapter 4), the Mosaic covenant was a codicil to the Abrahamic covenant. A codicil is added to an existing document. It doesn’t replace the existing document.
. Dispensationalism reverses things. It makes the Abrahamic covenant a codicil to the Mosaic. Hebrews 3 says that Moses was a worker in Jesus’ house. Dispensationalism makes Jesus a worker in Moses’ house.