Replacement Theology

Then for clarity sake, just take a couple verses at a time, and state briefly what you are trying to say instead of the entire passage.
DHK

 

Paul is explicitly addressing both the succeeding case AND the failing cases and shows that we find BOTH Jew and Gentiles in the succeeding case AND in the failing case.

He begins in vs 4 with the "context" of forgiveness, submission and repentance to God.

4or do you think lightly of the riches of his kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?


Let's continue letting the scripture speak for itself;


Rom2: 5 but because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:

Has anyone noticed the "wrath" part of the text so far? Notice that in these first 6 verses we have a motivation - not to engage in man's faulty judgment of others. And there is no sense or expectation that this sin is not to stop or just to continue because we are totally depraved and this rebellion must be the lot of God's saints.

Rather the argument is to stop.

Further - if this chapter is only about the failing case, only about the wrath of God - then we will not find success, mercy, reward but only condemnation, wrath, punishment. Let's now let the text reveal which way it will go.


Rom 2:7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

So far on the good side has no limits to "just Jews" being good, we have God - leading to repentance and we have the people of God - persevering, doing good and seeking glory and honor. What is the result? The text says immortality and eternal life.


Rom2:8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.


Has the term "obey" missed us at this point? No it has not. Clearly a contrast is being introduced "but to those who are selfish" - contrasted with what? Those who repent, seek eternal glory and honor and persevere. And again - it does not limit itself (yet) to "just Jews"

But "Persevere" in what?

You must be on the right path to be approved in perseveringly staying on the right path. It is obvious I know, but worth noting.

So God has now contrasted the good and the wicked, those who persevere on the right path and those who are not even on it.

We already know that in the judgment there are two classes - those that receive immortality and those that do not.


Rom2:9there will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

Here we see "every soul of mankind" "BOTH" the Jews and the Greeks in the failing case - those that do evil - that rebel against God.

10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11for there is no partiality with God.

Again Paul hammers the context home for us "it is NOT just for the Jews" but the "Jew first and Also to the Greek". And in this case we see the "succeeding case" of "Glory and Honor and Peace". Just as vs 7 showed "Immortality and eternal life".

At this point Paul seems to ask that we "be not deceived" into thinking that some can do evil but find "preferred treatment" while others are lost for doing evil.

Rather Paul argues that God has called all to repentance and all must comply - there will be no preferred treatment based on status (or magic phrase) allowing some of the rebels in.


Paul now continues with the succeeding case! Yes that is right! His argument works and he gives a very simple proving case.


Romans2:14for when gentiles who do not have the law do instinctively the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

Here is the Hebrews 8 "New Covenant" promise of the "Law of God written on the heart" - that can come only by the work of God the Holy Spirit. And they "Show" this fact by their Matt 7 "Fruit".

Let's not miss that simple point. There actually were gentiles that really did not have the law of God! That is very important to understand. And there were those who did instinctively the things of the law showing it was written on their heart!! Wow! So that means Paul really was right!

Even more interesting is the fact that this terminology regarding "the law written on the heart" is new covenant terminology. Heb 8!!! Yes indeed we have the succeeding case as well as the failing case made in this non-myopic chapter of God's infallible word.

Rom 2:16on the day when, according to my Gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Wow! Apparently the infallible word is telling us that it is gospel - good news that a future judgment, where the gentiles are shown to be doers of the law and not merely hearers only, is coming. A future Christ centered judgment!! What a Christ-centered gospel Paul has in this chapter!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,
I am not sure what you are driving at here. If you want a discussion on Romans 2, perhaps that could be done elsewhere. My original post contained a few verses from Romans 2 about circumcision, and from Romans 11 about God's covenant with Israel, showing that God has not replaced the nation of Israel but will restore her as a nation at some time in the future. Israel has not been replaced, but set aside for a season. She will be restored when Christ comes again.

The name of this thread is Replacement Theology. I am puzzled at what your running commentaries on Romans 2 have to do with this.
DHK

 

DHK - you say that Romans 2 has nothing to do with this thread - but you posted a rather lengthy discussion of Romans 2:24-29 to make your point on this thread.

I am just pointing out that the argument you make from Romans 2 does not fit with the chapter.

My point was to show that the chapter deals with both Jews and Greeks AND to show that it shows BOTH the SUCCESSFUL Jews as well as the failing Jews just as it shows the SUCCESSFUL Greeks as well as those that fail. It is not simply a statement about how Jews sinned.

To make a point about the Jews ceasing you could not use Romans 2.

Certainly you can use Romans 2 (at the end) to show that the only real spiritual value of "being a Jew" was in being truly "circumcised in heart by the Spirit of God" and that this was "true" in all ages. So that in all ages the "value" of being considered "the elect of God" and "His adopted child" was purely in spiritual terms as a child of Abraham "the father of the faithful".

What I was pointing out was that in Romans 2 - we do not see the demise of Judaism. Only that the spiritual "Truth" of being a Jew - was always - circumcision from the heart by the Spirit of God.

In Christ,

Bob

 

In Romans 2, I was not making a point about the Jews ceasing. Perhaps I was unclear. But rather the rite of physical circumcision ceasing. We both agree that the only true Jew was one who was circumcised in the heart, and not in the flesh. So my discussion was originally around circumcision in relation to what Brother Ed had brought out. Circumcision is a sign of the Jewish covenant. But in Romans 11 the covenant with the Jews still remains. God is still going to fulfill that covenant. Thus baptism could never take the place of circumcision. And the church can never take the place of Israel. Israel still exists, and as a nation will be saved (Rom.11:26)
DHK

 

In Romans 11 - the point is made that both physical Jews and physical gentiles are grafted into the one vine as spiritual Israel. The point Paul makes prior to that (Rom 9:6) is that "they are not all Israel that are physcial descendants of Israel (Jacob)".

The True Israel in Romans 11 is seen to be - those why "by faith" are grafted into the vine - grafted into Christ. And Paul has already established that this is "US whom God called Not from the Jews only but also from among the Gentiles" 9:24.

So after identifying the process by which BOTH the physical Jews AND the physical Gentiles are grafted IN and others cast OUT - he concludes "So IN THIS WAY all Israel will be saved" - all spirituatl Israel is completed through a process of grafting in from BOTH the "ISRAEL" that is among the Gentiles (of faith) and the reclaiming of the "ISRAEL" that are the faithful from among the physical Jews.

Notice that Paul never endorses salvation as anything "other than individual" - Christ is an "individual savior" and we must "individually accept Him" - there is no such thing as literal - physcial - national salvation "by nations" instead of one individual at a time.

Bob

 

And so all Israel shall be saved There is an Israel. As a nation they will be saved. This is future tense, and yet to happen. They are still a physical nation, not simply a spiritual nation. They will be saved at the end of the Tribulation Period when Jesus comes again.

You forget that St. Paul is speaking in the interregnum period when the Jews were given one last chance to accept Christ as their Messiah and avoid the wrath which was about to fall upon them in AD 70.

Lu 13:6 ¶ He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:

9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. You are confused. Not even by obedience can one fulfill the law of God, for no one can be perfectly obedient

St. Paul was writing in the time of this "one more year". As such, Israel still consisted of the Jews and the Jewish nation. The Church was admitting Gentiles, but the Jews had the opportunity to keep the administration of the vineyard as spoken of in Matthew 21.

You fail to deal with the following verses:

Ro 9:6 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

They are not all Israel. Of whom was St. Paul speaking? How could one be of Israel and not be Israel? THINK MAN!!! He is stating quite clearly that Israel (the people of God -- the elect) is a separate class from Israel (the nation which is ethnically Jewish). That is the only way you can make any sense of Rom. 9: 6

Ro 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

"ALL ISRAEL" means all of God's elect people. It does not mean ALL JEWS, and it does not mean a nation over in the Middle East. All Israel, in the New Covenant, is the Church consisting of both Jew and Gentile.

The Hebrew nation over in the Middle East right now is NOT Israel, even if that is the name they use to distinguish themselves as a nation. Israel is the name given to God's people, not to any people, regardless of ethnicity, who are in rebellion against God. Rebels are not God's people.

Your problem is that you lack clarity in exegesis. You are not dividing the Word of Truth properly, and in doing so, you are setting up a conflict between St. Paul and the words of our Lord in Matthew 21. Jesus prophesied that the Jews would be removed from the vineyard and in that prophecy, there was ABSOLUTELY NO INDICATION OF THEIR RETURN given in that parable in Matthew 21. Therefore, to say that St. Paul or anyone else is stating that the Jews will be given back the position of husbandmen of the vineyard is to deny the teachings of our Lord.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

Brother Ed:


Rom.11
[1] I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
[2] God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.



Jas.1
[1] James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Rev.7
[4] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
[5] Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
[6] Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
[7] Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
[8] Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Brother Ed, which tribe are you from?

Rev.21
[12] And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

Why would the names of the twelve tribes be on the gates of the New Jerusalem if the Church has replaced Israel?

 

Who are they, then?

Link to Above Article

From a scientific journal re: DNA of Cohen/Cohanim

Link to Gene Article


Error of Replacement Theology - Rebuttal Using some of the same Scriptures Posted on this Thread

 

At the end of Matt 23 Christ pronounces the curse of Solomon on the nation - declaring that it's house would be left to it desolate. He indicates that the Jews would fill up the measure of their cup of iniquity. In 1Thess 2 Paul argues that they had already filled it up.

EVEN though given FOREVER promises of God's Holy Spirit and teaching word in Isaiah 59 as the ONE true Hebrew NATION CHURCH soevereignly establishished by God with explicit instruction about successors - STILL the fall of that system was "complete".

In Christ,

Bob

[ May 25, 2003, 11:47 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Trust in the Lord, thank you for a wonderful post! Amen!

Did you know plans are underway to build the 3rd Temple & they (just last year) finally bred a kosher red heifer?

http://www.templeinstitute.org/current-events/RedHeifer/


http://www.templemount.org/

 

The reason that Evangelicals have swallowed the errors and distortions of Premillenialism is that they do not know what a covenant is nor do they believe that God keeps His promises:

De 28:1 ¶ And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:

Notice that in this opening verse, there is an IF. The Jewish nation was to be the kingdom of God on earth, the nation that would be above all others and would rule over all others, but only "IF" they kept the oaths of the covenant they were sworn to.

2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.

Notice again, there is an "IF". There is no such thing as an "unconditional covenant" as the Calvinist foolishness has suppositioned. All covenants have oaths/sanctions. There are terms to the covenant which must be kept if the blessings are to be received.

7 The LORD shall cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thy face: they shall come out against thee one way, and flee before thee seven ways.

Can anyone say "AD70"?

10 And all people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of the LORD; and they shall be afraid of thee.

See? Rulership over the nations of the earth.

12 The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.

Oh, this is interesting. How long do you Premillenialists think that the so called "nation of Israel" would last if we stopped pumping BILLIONS of dollars into their economy? Yet if they really ARE the people of God, according to the above promises, they would not need a cent from us, would they?

15 ¶ But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

Uh oh.....
57 And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.

This was fulfilled TO THE LETTER during the Jewish Civil War with the Romans in AD 70!!!

Furthermore, the promise of this covenant is that the only way that the nation will receive the blessings of the covenant is to keep the covenant. Therefore, if they are not keeping the covenant NOW...then you tell me how God can bless them and restore them to these blessings promised in Deuteronomy 28. If He does so, then He will break His own promises which He made in this chapter.

And I don't care how many stupid red heifers turn up in Israel. It is all deception from Satan, the father of lies. God made very DISTINCT AND CLEAR COVENANTAL PROMISES and for Premillenialism to come true, He would have to go back on what was promised in Deut. 28 as well as Matthew 21, Mark 12, and Luke 20.

I find it amazing how a lie can have such power with men.

 

Wrong.

God promised to obliterate Israel If they chose rebellion - 1 Kings 9:6-9, Jer 22:5 and Christ pronounced that curse in Matt 23:38.

Christ stated that JUST as the Amorites filled up the measure of their iniquity and were cast out - so would Israel Matt 23:32, AND Paul confirms that this in fact happened ALREADY in his day 1Thess 2:14-16.

The coming of Christ in Rev 19 is seen CLEARLY as taking place BEFORE the evetns of Rev 20 - the 1000 years.

The millenium STARTS with the resurrection of the righteous according to the TEXT of Rev 20 (and we SEE that resurrection described in 1Thess 4 and 1Cor 15. This is IN the text - you have to "want to be blind to it" to miss it.

The millenium ENDS with the resurrection of the wicked and the lake of fire JUST as Rev 20 says.

Impossible to miss. But I don't think our Catholic bretheren actually read scripture on this point - where scripture SPEAKS of the millenium - to get their doctrine on the millenium.

Do you?

I believe that during the dark ages the CC came up with the idea of diverting attention away from signs pointing to the Catholic Church in the book of Revelation - by trying to KEEP the focus on the Jews even AFTER the cross. As if John (writing AFFTER the destruction of Jerusalem) was STILL anticipating more major historic world wide influence of unfaithful jews RATHER than pointing to the future rise and apostacy of the CC.

Just a thought.

In Christ,

Bob

 

God promised to obliterate Israel If they chose rebellion - 1 Kings 9:6-9, Jer 22:5 and Christ pronounced that curse in Matt 23:38.

Nice that you see this. So many Protestants seem to skim right by Matthew 23 and not pay attention to the dire pronounciations of our Lord against Israel and the people of Jerusalem.

Christ stated that JUST as the Amorites filled up the measure of their iniquity and were cast out - so would Israel Matt 23:32, AND Paul confirms that this in fact happened ALREADY in his day 1Thess 2:14-16.

Mt 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

Corollary to Matthew 21 where the husbandmen kill the servants that the owner of the vineyard sends to them.

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

This they did when they killed the son of the landowner

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Spoken to those who were listening to Him.

34 ¶ Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Indeed, beginning with Stephen, they continued to fill up their basket of iniquities until they were filled to the brim and ripe for judgement.

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

THIS generation. Not in the future, but in the lifetime of those listening to the Messiah prophesy the doom of Jerusalem. And in AD 70 it came - with a vengeance. In fact, the vengeance of God.

The coming of Christ in Rev 19 is seen CLEARLY as taking place BEFORE the events of Rev 20 - the 1000 years.

Indeed. But now you have a problem, for Christ set a time limit upon His return which cannot be denied --

Mt 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Jesus states that He will return before all who are standing there listening to Him have died. Therefore, unless you can find me a 2000+ year old Jew who was in Christ's audience on that day, then He must have fulfilled that promise and returned. So, if this is so, then the next question must be HOW, WHEN, and IN WHAT MANNER?

The millenium STARTS with the resurrection of the righteous according to the TEXT of Rev 20 (and we SEE that resurrection described in 1Thess 4 and 1Cor 15. This is IN the text - you have to "want to be blind to it" to miss it.

Oh, I have no argument here. Therefore, one must understand that Christ having returned in AD 70 means that we are in the millenial reign at this time and the number 1000 is a figurative and not literal number which stands for the full completeness of God's program.

You see, you have to understand the covenant to understand why it was ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY for Christ to return in AD 70. Jesus was the sacrificial lamb of the New Covenant. You must go back to the Old Covenant and study it to see how the New Covenant works.

Jesus is the Great High Priest. A high priest does one thing only -- he offers YOM KIPPUR for the covenantal nation. That is what we see Him doing in Hebrews 9 and 10. He goes into the "temple made without hands" and offers His perfect Blood as the covenantal sacrifice for the new nation of the New Covenant - the Church. Thus, the Church is brought into a corporate covenantal relationship with God through the work of the New Covenant High Priest -- Jesus the Son of Man.

Now, if you know anything about the YOM KIPPUR rite of the Old Covenant, you should know that YOM KIPPUR was not officially sealed, finished, and completed before God UNTIL the high priest returned from whence he came. No priest coming out of the Holiest of All meant that the covenant was broken between God and the nation and judgement was immenant. (And the priest was dead and had to be drug out of the holiest).

Therefore, in keeping with the typology of the Old Covenant, not only did the covenantal sacrifice have to be offered by the Great High Priest, Who was both offerer and victim, but HE HAD TO RETURN FROM THE HOLIEST OF ALL TO THE PLACE FROM WHENCE HE CAME. In other words, if Jesus was still in Heaven in the holiest of all, made without hands, then the sacrifice would not be complete and we are still in our sins.

There could also be no resurrection if Jesus the Son of Man was still in the heavenlies. The resurrection of the dead began with the emptying of Paradise upon the return of Christ to Jerusalem in Judgment. AD 70 was the beginning of the time known as THE GREAT JUDGMENT DAY. Christ sits now as Judge of every soul that dies.

Resurrection is the undoing of the curse of the Fall. With the Fall, mankind was separated from God. This state of separation is known as "death" in Scripture. As long as man is separated from God, he is "dead". The righteous souls who were in Paradise, awaiting the resurrection, were still "dead" because they were not in full communion and fellowship with God. But once YOM KIPPUR was completed, which paid corporately for the sins of the New Covenant people, the OT saints could leave Paradise because reunion with God had been acheived through the finished and perfect sacrifice of Jesus.

Note that there are two resurrections in Rev. 20. The first resurrection is that of the righteous, or the "just". That resurrection is spiritual in nature and began with the return of Christ in AD 70. It is described in 1 Thess 4 and 1 Corin. 15. The second resurrection is the final resurrection at which time the bodies of all men who have ever lived are reanimated and God wraps up the Judgement in chronological time and we enter the era of timeless eternity.

The millenium ENDS with the resurrection of the wicked and the lake of fire JUST as Rev 20 says.

No argument from me on this. Second resurrection. Bodily. Resurrection of the wicked. You and I, as believers, have already been united to God through the Blood of Christ. We are therefore already resurrected unto life and experience it as a foretaste of that eternal glory set aside for the righteous. As the wicked are raised from the graves to face that final judgement, so our bodies are raised to be united to our souls.

The Catholic Church does not have an established position on the millenium at this time. Perhaps the next eccumenical council will settle that once and for all, but for now, one may be an amillenialist, postmillenialist, or a preterist just as long as one does not deny the physical resurrection of the body on the Last Day.

Incidentally, I was a Premillenialist and found that the chronology of it simply could not be worked out. When I began studying Preterism, I found a system which is much more cogent, ties in with the covenant, and establishes the kingdom on earth right now, not in some 1000 year mythology. Jesus is king now. He is not some weak and helpless sap watching and fretting as things spin out of control. He reigns and rules now and everything in the kingdom happens either by His direct causation or His sovereign permission.

We only have the illusion of being in control, don't we?

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

Will gladly continue discussion on this fascinating subject. Would like your take on Matthew 16: 28. Also on YOM KIPPUR and its relationship to the New Covenant.

 

Matt 16:27-17:3 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

CHAPTER 17
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Christ did not return in AD 70. The scriptures immediately before, and after that which you quoted, shed some light on what our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was saying. Verse 27 clearly points out, that when Jesus returns, he will reward every man according to his works. This did not happen in AD 70, and has not happened yet, as is obvious.

Immediately after saying that some present would not see death until they saw the Son of man coming in his kingdom, Christ took Peter, James, And John with him, and was transfigured before them. They saw Christ in his glory. When he was transfigured, Moses and Elijah appeared and talked with Christ. Elijah walked from earth to heaven, without seeing death. Moses was resurrected by Christ, and was, and is in heaven. These two men represent the those who will be alive when Christ returns, never seeing death, and those who will be resurrected when Christ returns, ever to be with him. Christ gave these apostles a prophetic view of him coming in his kingdom by being transfigured before them, and having these two men with him, which represent the two groups of the saved that will exist when Christ returns. Christ himself testifies to these things.

Matt 24:30-31 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

John 5:28-29 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matt 25:31-32 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

According to the above verses, the angels will gather together the elect when Christ returns. The dead will be raised, and all will receive their reward, as stated in Matt. 16:28. It is then that he will divide the sheep from the goats, that is the saved, from the unsaved. None of this happened in AD 70, or has happened yet.

Bye for now. Y. B. in C. Keith.

 

Food for thought.

At the time of the Reformation, most of the reformers understood the prophecy of the Antichrist to refer to the great apostate system of Romanism that developed during the Middle Ages. Of course, Rome did not appreciate this interpretation. Please notice Rome's course of action to nullify this interpretation:

"So great a hold did the conviction that the Papacy was the Antichrist gain upon the minds of men, that Rome at last saw she must bestir herself, and try, by putting forth other systems of interpretation, to counteract the identification of the Papacy with the Antichrist.

"Accordingly, toward the close of the century of the Reformation, two of the most learned doctors set themselves to the task, each endeavoring by differnt means to accomplish the same end, namely, that of diverting men's minds from perceiving the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Antichrist in the papal system. The Jesuit Alcasar devoted himself to bring into prominence the preterist method of interpretation,...and thus endeavored to show that the prophecies of Antichrist were fulfilled before the popes ever ruled in Rome, and therefore could not apply to the Papacy.

"On the other hand, the Jesuit Ribera tried to set aside the application of these prophecies to the papal power by bringing out the futurist system, which asserts that these prophecies refer properly, not to the career of the Papacy, but to some future supernatural individual, who is yet to appear, and continue in power for three and a half years. Thus, as Alford says, the Jesuit Ribera, about A.D. 1580, may be regarded as the founder of the futurist system of modern times.

"...It is a matter for deep regret that those who advocate the futurist system at the present day, Protestants as they are for the most part, are really playing into the hands of Rome, and helping to screen the Papacy from detection as the Antichrist." (Revered Joseph Tanner, Daniel and the Revelation, pp. 16,17)

Thus, the whole theory of the secret rapture with its future Antichrist had its origin with the Jesuits in an attempt to take the blame off the Papacy.

The origin of the two-phase coming of Christ has an equally unsavory history. It was not until around the year 1830 that this view began to be taught! In the church pastored by Edward Irving, a Miss Margaret McDonald gave what was believed at the time to be an inspired utterance. She spoke of the visible, open and glorious second coming of Christ. BUT as the utterance continued, she spoke of another coming of Christ, a secret and special coming in which those that were truly ready would be raptured.

It was John Nelson Darby, a Brethren preacher and diligent writer of the time in England, however, who was largely responsible for introducing this new teaching on a large scale. The teaching spread to the United States in the 1850's and 1860's, where it was to receive its biggest boost when Cyrus Ingerson Scofield, a strong believer in Darby's teachings, incorporated it into the notes of his "Scofield Reference Bible" which was published in 1909. Since that time, this view has been widely accepted,often by people who are completely unaware that this was not the belief held by Christians over the centuries. Many fine Christians hold his view today who have never questioned it.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

John 5:28-29 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.-

It is clear from the verses above, that both the wicked, and the saved will be resurrected. One, to the resurrection of life, and the other to the resurrection of damnation. The next question to be asked, is when, will these resurrections take place, and do they occur at the same time? The scriptures answer both of these questions. -

1Thes 4:13-18 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.-

1 Cor 15:20-26 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.-

The scriptures above point out that Christ’s followers will be raised at His coming. They will meet Christ in the clouds, and will be with Him forever. Verse 14 says- “ 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” If we believe that Christ rose from the dead with a body, and went to heaven to be with His Father, then we can know, that he will do the same for us. We will be brought to heaven, body and spirit, with Christ, and will ever be with Him. This is the beginning of the thousand years reign with Christ. So what about the wicked, what happens to them at Christ’s coming? Let us examine the scriptures to see what Christ’s second coming means to the wicked.-

2 Pet 3:7 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.-

2 Pet 3:10-13 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.-

Zeph 1:14-17 14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their
flesh as the dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.-

Rev 6:14-17 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?-

The wicked, and all of their works, will be destroyed, by the brightness of Christ’s coming. When the Lord Returns, those who are Christ’s will go with Him to heaven, to reign for one thousand years. On the other hand, the wicked will be destroyed, along with all of the works of this world, at His coming. This is why Satan cannot deceive the nations any more during the thousand years. There are no nations, or people to deceive during this thousand year period. The Devil is bound to this desolated planet for one thousand years, with no one to deceive, because all the wicked have perished. He will be left to ponder the results of his own workings. -

Rev 20:1-3 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.-

Rev 20:4-6 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.-

Again, those who are Christ’s, reign with him during this thousand years. However, the rest of the dead, that is the wicked who perished at Christ’s coming, live not again until the thousand years is finished ( verse 5 ). They did not take part in the first resurrection which took place at Christ’s coming, they are not blessed and holy, and they will die the second death ( verse 6 ). The wicked will take part in the second resurrection, which takes place when the new Jerusalem comes down to the earth at the end of the thousand years. It is at this time also, that Satan is loosed, and allowed to deceive the nations again ( verse 3 ). Of course, now Satan will have people to deceive again, because the wicked will have been raised in order to face their judgment, and die the second death. Satan and his followers will surround the city to attack it, but God will devour them with eternal fire.-

Rev 20:7-9 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.-

It is at the end of the thousand year period, that the New Jerusalem descends upon the earth. All the saved will be in it. When the wicked try to take the city, God will destroy them by fire. At this time, God will create a new heaven, and a new earth, where righteousness dwells. Sin and it’s originator, Satan, will be eradicated, never to appear again.-

Rev 21:9-10 9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,-

Rev 21:22-24 22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

God bless. Bye for now. Your brother in Christ, Keith.