Repost: Questions for Fundamentalists (Civil Discussion ONLY)

I did not say it was the norm. Please respond to what I ACTUALLY say.

or yours may be

Where were they?

Do you think the DOZEN posters on baptistboard who say that they've been exposed to numerous, some hundreds, of IFB churches and that MOST of them have been like this- do you think they are ALL LIARS?????????????????????????????????????????????

Do you think the SWORD is a fringe????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

Who is?
______

 

Well, you identified hundreds, and he identified 400; so be a little more specific about how many hundreds you're talking about, and then we can worry about whose sampling is larger.

Don't know about Tom; the actual specific churches I've visited or been a member of were in Oklahoma, Mississippi, Illinois, Colorado, Missouri, Hawaii, Wisconsin, and Texas. Through these, I have no idea how many other churches I've been in contact with through conferences, camps, basketball tournaments, and other means.

Nope. I think they're relating their anectdotal evidence based on their experience.

Yes, it is. No one "belongs" to the Sword of the Lord; the Sword of the Lord is not an association. Rather, it's a grouping or "heading" that's made up of like-minded IFBers, usually from the Hyles "camp."

That's not meant to detract from what you're saying about those types of IFBers; merely meant to provide an explanation.

 

Hmmmm. I attended IFB's for more than 20yrs, am intimately familiar with most of the IFB churches of their fellowship in the surrounding states, and attended one of their colleges as an adult in my early thirties. There may be baptists who call themselves fundamentalists which would not fall within my description, but many,many churches do. This is true of ALL religions. There is always a fundamentalist, fanatical fray whose behaviors are well described in my previous post.

 

Luke2427 - why is it that you are constantly saying "please repond to what I actually said" when we ARE responding to what you actually said??!! You spit ugly words at IFB, words full of hatred and ignorance.
You make broad assumptions and accusations based on limited experience.

I quoted my former Pastor Chappell once in a reply to you, and you instantly forgot what I said because you couldn't attack it! I will quote him again:

"When we get to Heaven, we will be surprised to see some Catholics there, some Mormons, even some Methodists! And what will surprise us even more will be that some of our Baptist friends WON'T be there"

He is about as IFB as a Pastor can get. You simply have to stop generalizing on a number of your IFB issues, sir. I have NEVER heard anyone say you had to be IFB in order to get to Heaven....EVER.

 

No, Don. Be consistent. Ask him to name every one of them or his stats are meaningless.

We can just throw out numbers, I suppose. I'll say I have been exposed to 415!

There! I win!!

And you believe that almost none of them(that constitutes a fringe) believe in, say, KJVO, right?

Name them and we can find out.

Which is at least as good as your anecdotal evidence and Tcassidy's and John of Japan's.

However, for what it's worth, there are more of us on bb who say that our experience is that these types are not a FRINGE.

madness!

THOUSANDS show up for the Sword of the Lord every year. There is no way any objective person could call that a fringe.

If five thousand make the arduous trek to attend how many thousands more stay at home who have that philosophy.

For example. Less than 10,000 show up for the Southern Baptist Convention every year. But there are 16 MILLION SBC members.

So if 3,000 SHOW UP for the Sword- how many potentially did not show up who embrace that kind of thinking? I think we can safely say at least many thousands and thousand more.

That is no fringe.

The Sword of the Lord magazine has been THE magazine of the IFB for years.

To this day it is mailed out in EVERY SINGLE STATE in the United States and EVERY SINGLE PROVINCE in Canada.

The Sword of the Lord newspaper is printed bi-weekly and has a circulation of 100,000.

That is no fringe.

You said it. So this thinking is certainly not a FRINGE.

 

Because you don't respond to what I ACTUALLY say. You constantly argue things that I HAVE NOT SAID.

You want me to be saying something that is easier for you to respond to so you just pretend I am saying that.

This line is full of ignorance and hatred.

I do hate something. I hate the backwards thinking of MANY, MANY IFB people. I hate it because I think it dims the glory of God in our culture and slows down progress for the Kingdom of God.

I don't hate the people any more than I hate homosexuals. I care about both groups.

But I hate the evil that both groups espouse.

You know nothing about my experience. As far as you know I have been exposed to more IFB than you have.

Talk about what you know, please. Not what you assume.

THAT's making broad assumptions and accusations based on limited experience.

Do you see how terribly guilty you are of doing the very thing you accuse me of doing?

I didn't forget anything. I just don't think it warranted a response. I agree with the quote- OBVIOUSLY.

I HAVEN'T generalized at all.


I have said about two DOZEN times that I realize not all IFB espuse this evil and stupidity.

But MANY do.

You ought to join with me in confronting them rather than pretending like they don't exist.

Because I am going to tell you something. The world, when it thinks of IFB, does not think of people like YOU and your good pastor MOST of the time.

It thinks of these nut jobs and backwards preachers and churches who need to be corrected.

 

I have made no such assumption. It would be nice if you and dcorbette would debate ME and what I ACTUALLY say.

I think that assumption you accuase me of espousing is almost as erroneous as pretending that there are very FEW IFB people who espouse the thinking I am condemning.

Yes. It says that there are still over 100,000 PEOPLE under the IFB banner who think the way I am condemning.

That's no fringe, T. It simply is not.

 

Luke2427....this is quote from the link you posted:

Is there anything wrong with what was said there? I don't - I stand up vehemently for what he said.

 

No one is making any such assumption.

I admit I do think that the majority of IFB do think this way. But that is not what I am arguing.

I am arguing that MANY IFB think this way. That's enough.

I have proven that unequivocally.

This is not a fringe by any means.

And it will continue to represent more and more of your movement as long as you resist people like me who try to purge the world of this thinking.

It will grow like a cancer in your movement as long as you refuse to join in condemnation of it and as long as you pretend that it is a small insignificant percentage.

You've got your head in the sand, dear brother.

Wake up. Stand up. Stop fighting me. If I win- YOU WIN.

 

And?????

Do you think that is the only thing that has been written in the Sword of the Lord in the past 30 years???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

I have nothing to say to someone who absolutely LOSES his sanity
with that many question marks. Please seek some help, sir. I am done
with you and your ranting. You are not influencing me in any manner.

 

My primary goal is not to influence you.

God bless.

 

Are you prepared to name everyone of yours? He claimed over 400; you claimed an even hazier number of "hundreds." If you're going to require him to name his, you better start naming yours. Otherwise, you're just full of hot air.

I believe that most of the ones I'm referencing are KJ-preferred.

Never said it wasn't. My point is that it's all anectdotal.

Then why don't you start a whole new section for "survivors of Heretical KJVO IFB Churches"?

BUT, my friend, you're making a claim that Sword of the Lord is its own movement. I challenge you to find one single church that says "I'm a 'Sword of the Lord' church." I challenge you to find one IFB that says "I'm a 'Sword of the Lord' baptist."

Thus, you've placed a moniker on a camp of IFBers that are better identified as Hyles, or Vineyard, or any of a number of others that are in that circle (which, upon reflection, is a better term than "camps"). Sword of the Lord is merely the newspaper they use as a tool to keep in touch (and btw, just because they claim a circulation of 100,000 doesn't mean they have 100,000 readers; it means they print 100,000 copies. Seeing as most churches will do a subscription for multiple copies, you now have to determine how many copies are actually read, vice how many sit on the table until the next edition arrives), and the "umbrella name" they use for their conferences.

But if it makes you feel better to corral the different circles under a single name, and Sword of the Lord is the one you want to use, then go ahead.

 

You missed the point Don.

I don't think either one of us should have to name them.

But his stats are no better than the stats of a dozen of us who say that IFB is eat up with this thinking.

So if all of our points are no good- then neither is his.

Until both sides name them all neither side meets your rigorous test to ahve a point.

That means that you and tcassidy do not have a point (just like we don't apparently).

That's not a bad idea.

The only problem is it fails to accomplish one thing. It does not call upon good guys like yourself to condemn this thinking in oyur own ranks.

What I do here DOES do that.

I've made no such claim.

I claim that 100,000 IFB people get Sword of the Lord magazine. By your own testimony, these people are by and large the Hyles type people.

So no objective person could say they are a FRINGE. That's what tcasidy is trying to argue.

It doesn't hold water.

IFB is EAT UP with modern Sword thinking.

Don. If 100,000 Sward newspapers are sent out then there are MORE that think this way than 100,000. NOT EVERYONE who thinks this way gets SOTL.

In IFB Sword churches not every member gets the paper. Maybe less than half of the members get the paper.

So it could be, this is absolutely perfectly reasonable, that as many as A QUARTER OF A MILLION people think this way.

But even if only HALF of them do- and I think that's utterly ridiculous- that's STILL FIFTY THOUSAND IFB PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!

Even that ridiculous low ball figure is no fringe.

And I'll tell you something else. There are no doubt hundreds of IFB churches that do not get the Sword paper because it is TOO LIBERAL FOR THEM!!!

 

It's deja vu all over again.

 

First of all I don't think there are 20,000,000 people who call themselves IFB.

Secondly, your dismissal of the 100,000 SWORD mags that are sent out every two weeks was silly and unfounded. That stat would matter to any objective thinker and no objective observer would flippantly dismiss it- especially on such silly, unsubstantiated grounds.

Thirdly, if 300,000 SWORD papers under JRR DID represent the IFB- well, then 100,000 of them to this day is NO FRINGE.

Not by any thinking person's standards.

A fringe, literally speaking, is the edge of a garment that makes up an extremely small percentage of the whole garment.

These KJVO people and these legalistic holier than thou divisive people, and these people who believe they have an unbroken line of baptistic people totally separate from the catholic church all the way back to the NT- these people simply are not fringe.

You might argue that they are not the majority. You may be right. I don't think you are, but you may be.

But most of us KNOW that you are wrong about them being nothing more than a fringe.

The only ones who believe this are a handful of you guys who are apparently in good strains of IFB and are oblivious to the thousands of churches that are not like you guys.

The rest of us know better.


And one final point here.

Let's assume for a moment that you are right. Let's assume that there is just a fringe of IFB that think this way.

A FRINGE of 20,000,000 people is bigger than many dangerous cults.

And the thinking of this many IFB people ought to be purged with all the vehemence of a family that locates small deposits of deadly mold in every room of the house.