Researching apostles...

[awaken]

If you had answered my post, you would know why your answer doesn't even make sense.
I will say it again so you can understand it this way.
My church is in "complete unity of the faith," too bad about yours.

And I will say again....you are fooling yourself if you think you have COMPLETE unity! No one even in the same denomination agrees (unity) on everything!
So your church is a perfect man,unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ? You have already attained to that level?

 

[DHK]

And I will say again....you are fooling yourself if you think you have COMPLETE unity! No one even in the same denomination agrees (unity) on everything!
So your church is a perfect man,unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ? You have already attained to that level?

Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

We have unity.
We have one faith.
We have one baptism--water baptism.
And we have much more than that.
I am sorry to hear that your church is in such doctrinal chaos that there is no unity.

 

[TCassidy]

Ephesians 4:1
I am sorry to hear that your church is in such doctrinal chaos that there is no unity.

If all the church members are as ignorant of the bible as she is there will be no unity at all!

 

[awaken]

Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

We have unity.
We have one faith.
We have one baptism--water baptism.
And we have much more than that.
I am sorry to hear that your church is in such doctrinal chaos that there is no unity.

You ignore a perfect man, unto the fullness of Christ!

 

[DHK]

You ignore a perfect man, unto the fullness of Christ!

I don't ignore it; I have explained it once already. If you want to know what it means go and read where I have already posted it for you.

 

[awaken]

I don't ignore it; I have explained it once already. If you want to know what it means go and read where I have already posted it for you.

No one church as attain this! or complete unity! You can claim perfection for you church all you want...but that is all it is "A Claim."

We have not arrive to that perfection! We will not until Christ returns! We are all a work in progress! ...and that includes all the members of your church!

Jesus ascended and he gave gifts after he ascended...apostles being one of them!

We are reaching to the perfection, unity, to the fullness of Christ! But we will never be complete/perfect/mature until He returns and completes that work in us!
Paul never reached it and neither will we this side of the rapture!

 

[DHK]

No one church as attain this! or complete unity! You can claim perfection for you church all you want...but that is all it is "A Claim."

We have not arrive to that perfection! We will not until Christ returns! We are all a work in progress! ...and that includes all the members of your church!

Jesus ascended and he gave gifts after he ascended...apostles being one of them!

We are reaching to the perfection, unity, to the fullness of Christ! But we will never be complete/perfect/mature until He returns and completes that work in us!
Paul never reached it and neither will we this side of the rapture!

I will repeat part of my post to you. I hope you will listen.
There were 12 apostles plus Paul. These 12 (known as The Twelve) held the office of an apostle. Their names will be written on the foundation of the walls of the New Jerusalem. They can never be replaced. The only one that was replaced was Judas. Matthias took his place.

There are other apostles mentioned in the Bible: Barnabas, Timothy, etc. They are called "apostles of the churches." They also will never be replaced. Their position ended at the end of the first century along with the prophets.
There is no such thing as apostolic succession. Cults like Mormons teach apostolic succession. There have not been apostles in every age. The Lord never intended there to be, as he never intended prophets to be in every age. They make up the foundation of the church. Prophets were a means of revelation. We have all the revelation we need in the 27 books of the NT. There are no apostles and prophets today. They ended at the end of the first century as the Lord intended them to. The ascension has little or nothing to do with this.

Thus or today we are left with pastors, teachers and evangelists.
They are the ones that guide and teach us to be unified in the faith. That does happen in our lives and churches. I am sorry it doesn't happen in your church. I suspect the reason is because Charismatics base their doctrine on experience and not on the Word.
Yes, we have unity.

Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

until we (our local church) come into the unity of the faith--We are in the unity of the faith. We have been taught well. We are not confused as you are.
Don't allow your confused mind to attack the unity of church. If your church is as confused as you are no wonder you have not been or experienced unity in a church. But we do. Yes, there is unity of doctrine in our church; unity of the faith, as there should be in every church.

Coming to a knowledge of the Son of God is not salvation of course, but it is simple sanctification or spiritual growth. We come to a knowledge of the Son of God by studying and learning the Bible. If you don't do that you won't have a "knowledge of the Son of God," will you?

A perfect man is a mature man. It speaks of sanctification. It comes through sitting under teachers and pastors.

The measure and stature of the fullness of Christ.
The words "measure and stature" both have to do with growth. One grows through the Word of God, through prayer, through the preaching of the Word of God by pastors and teachers.
--All of this is a result of being taught by pastors and teachers.
Perhaps in your church you don't have any of these results because you don't have good pastors and teachers.

 

[awaken]

I will repeat part of my post to you. I hope you will listen.
There were 12 apostles plus Paul. These 12 (known as The Twelve) held the office of an apostle. Their names will be written on the foundation of the walls of the New Jerusalem. They can never be replaced. The only one that was replaced was Judas. Matthias took his place.

There are other apostles mentioned in the Bible: Barnabas, Timothy, etc. They are called "apostles of the churches." They also will never be replaced. Their position ended at the end of the first century along with the prophets.
There is no such thing as apostolic succession. Cults like Mormons teach apostolic succession. There have not been apostles in every age. The Lord never intended there to be, as he never intended prophets to be in every age. They make up the foundation of the church. Prophets were a means of revelation. We have all the revelation we need in the 27 books of the NT. There are no apostles and prophets today. They ended at the end of the first century as the Lord intended them to. The ascension has little or nothing to do with this.

Thus or today we are left with pastors, teachers and evangelists.
They are the ones that guide and teach us to be unified in the faith. That does happen in our lives and churches. I am sorry it doesn't happen in your church. I suspect the reason is because Charismatics base their doctrine on experience and not on the Word.
Yes, we have unity.

Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

until we (our local church) come into the unity of the faith--We are in the unity of the faith. We have been taught well. We are not confused as you are.
Don't allow your confused mind to attack the unity of church. If your church is as confused as you are no wonder you have not been or experienced unity in a church. But we do. Yes, there is unity of doctrine in our church; unity of the faith, as there should be in every church.

Coming to a knowledge of the Son of God is not salvation of course, but it is simple sanctification or spiritual growth. We come to a knowledge of the Son of God by studying and learning the Bible. If you don't do that you won't have a "knowledge of the Son of God," will you?

A perfect man is a mature man. It speaks of sanctification. It comes through sitting under teachers and pastors.

The measure and stature of the fullness of Christ.
The words "measure and stature" both have to do with growth. One grows through the Word of God, through prayer, through the preaching of the Word of God by pastors and teachers.
--All of this is a result of being taught by pastors and teachers.
Perhaps in your church you don't have any of these results because you don't have good pastors and teachers.

and I will repost my response! YOu are way off! You also throw out apostles and prophets to meet your theory!
So you can post this over and over....but it is wrong! We are NOT at the FULLNESS of CHRIST...and we will never be there until He returns!

How can we all (local churches) come together in the end? We are not in unity! It is not just the local church that needs to be in unity it is the body of Christ..the bride of Christ!

That is going to happen!

 

[DHK]

and I will repost my response! YOu are way off! You also throw out apostles and prophets to meet your theory!
So you can post this over and over....but it is wrong! We are NOT at the FULLNESS of CHRIST...and we will never be there until He returns!

How can we all (local churches) come together in the end? We are not in unity! It is not just the local church that needs to be in unity it is the body of Christ..the bride of Christ!

That is going to happen!

Now you are claiming to be a prophet. That is interesting.
Paul wrote to the Ephesians during the early part of his first imprisonment in Rome, about 60 A.D. That is only 5 years after writing to the Corinthians, one of his first epistles. How many books of the Bible do you think were written by then? One needs to put things into its historical context.

Paul never started a denomination. He never intended that any of the churches come together. Where do you find that in Scripture? What has the church in Rome to do with the church at Ephesus, for example, or the church at Philippi to do with the church at Colosse? Nothing! They were all independent of each other.

Paul wrote to the church at Ephesus--that particular assembly. Their pastors and teachers were to bring the church to a place of maturity, a place of unity in the faith. Why is that so difficult for you to see? That has nothing to do with any other church or any other body of believers. He was writing to the believers at Ephesus and had only them in mind.
They were a body.
All believers every where will eventually make up the bride. I never spoke a word about the bride of Christ, or against the bride of Christ. Why do you bring this red herring into the subject. That is not in this passage. It is a different topic.

What else does Paul say about the church at Ephesus?
Look in Acts 20:
Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
--Paul is at Miletus now. He sends a message to Ephesus and tells them that he would like all the elders or pastors for the church to come and meet with him. The church had become rather large, and had more than just one pastor, though Timothy was the senior pastor.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
--Here he uses words that teach us how the word "elder" is interchangeable with "shepherd, pastor, bishop, and overseer." They are all different names for the same office. However that is not the point I want to make with you. He is directing his remarks to the elders or pastors of Ephesus alone. He tells them that Christ purchased the church of Ephesus with his own blood.
That is what it says. He loved the church of Ephesus so much that he purchased it (those believers) with his own blood. He is speaking of local churches here. That is the importance that Christ puts on the local church. It cannot be diminished or allegorized away.

If you are saved and not baptized you are disobedient to the Lord.
If you are saved, not baptized, and not a member of a local church you are disobedient to the Lord. You have not lost your salvation. The importance of membership in a Bible-believing local church cannot be stressed enough. Christ shed his blood for the local church.

 

[awaken]

Now you are claiming to be a prophet. That is interesting.
Paul wrote to the Ephesians during the early part of his first imprisonment in Rome, about 60 A.D. That is only 5 years after writing to the Corinthians, one of his first epistles. How many books of the Bible do you think were written by then? One needs to put things into its historical context.

Paul never started a denomination. He never intended that any of the churches come together. Where do you find that in Scripture? What has the church in Rome to do with the church at Ephesus, for example, or the church at Philippi to do with the church at Colosse? Nothing! They were all independent of each other.

Paul wrote to the church at Ephesus--that particular assembly. Their pastors and teachers were to bring the church to a place of maturity, a place of unity in the faith. Why is that so difficult for you to see? That has nothing to do with any other church or any other body of believers. He was writing to the believers at Ephesus and had only them in mind.
They were a body.
All believers every where will eventually make up the bride. I never spoke a word about the bride of Christ, or against the bride of Christ. Why do you bring this red herring into the subject. That is not in this passage. It is a different topic.

What else does Paul say about the church at Ephesus?
Look in Acts 20:
Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
--Paul is at Miletus now. He sends a message to Ephesus and tells them that he would like all the elders or pastors for the church to come and meet with him. The church had become rather large, and had more than just one pastor, though Timothy was the senior pastor.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
--Here he uses words that teach us how the word "elder" is interchangeable with "shepherd, pastor, bishop, and overseer." They are all different names for the same office. However that is not the point I want to make with you. He is directing his remarks to the elders or pastors of Ephesus alone. He tells them that Christ purchased the church of Ephesus with his own blood.
That is what it says. He loved the church of Ephesus so much that he purchased it (those believers) with his own blood. He is speaking of local churches here. That is the importance that Christ puts on the local church. It cannot be diminished or allegorized away.

If you are saved and not baptized you are disobedient to the Lord.
If you are saved, not baptized, and not a member of a local church you are disobedient to the Lord. You have not lost your salvation. The importance of membership in a Bible-believing local church cannot be stressed enough. Christ shed his blood for the local church.

I can be saved and never set foot in a local church...and I am still a child of God! I can be saved and never be water baptized...and I am still a child of God!

 

[DHK]

I can be saved and never set foot in a local church...and I am still a child of God! I can be saved and never be water baptized...and I am still a child of God!

I never said you couldn't.

 

[awaken]

I never said you couldn't.

Well, throw out the confetti...we agree on something!

 

[Yeshua1]

Well, throw out the confetti...we agree on something!

back to the OP now, after some sad but amusing side issues....

WHAT verse/passage do you base the theology of a saved person seeking God to be "baptized" in the HS after being saved, for a second Act of His grace?

One verse can't be that hard to find, is it?

 

[awaken]

back to the OP now, after some sad but amusing side issues....

WHAT verse/passage do you base the theology of a saved person seeking God to be "baptized" in the HS after being saved, for a second Act of His grace?

One verse can't be that hard to find, is it?

If we get back to the OP ...it would be discussing the apostles, not a second act of grace!

 

[Yeshua1]

If we get back to the OP ...it would be discussing the apostles, not a second act of grace!

One ansd the same, for you would hold to Apsotles having that baptism of the HS from pentacost, and the SAME experience is for us today, right?

 

[awaken]

One ansd the same, for you would hold to Apsotles having that baptism of the HS from pentacost, and the SAME experience is for us today, right?

I have discussed this with you before, Yeshua! Maybe if you would do a study on the feast you might get a better understanding of the one time in history events....

YEs, the apostles were among those that the Holy Spirit was poured out that day! But they were not the only ones! And Acts 2 :39 says that all that The Lord our God shall call the promise is for...has he called us?

 

[Yeshua1]

I have discussed this with you before, Yeshua! Maybe if you would do a study on the feast you might get a better understanding of the one time in history events....

YEs, the apostles were among those that the Holy Spirit was poured out that day! But they were not the only ones! And Acts 2 :39 says that all that The Lord our God shall call the promise is for...has he called us?

We ALL receive the power of the HS when saved, up to us to abide/walk in Him, to have Him infilling us daily...

NO need to have the tongues, as thsoe were sign to the jews in Jerusalem that God made jesus messiah...

So ALL partake just as they did, NONE speak in other tongues as they did, was JUSt for pentacost and Apsotolic Age, right?

 

[awaken]

We ALL receive the power of the HS when saved, up to us to abide/walk in Him, to have Him infilling us daily...

NO need to have the tongues, as thsoe were sign to the jews in Jerusalem that God made jesus messiah...

So ALL partake just as they did, NONE speak in other tongues as they did, was JUSt for pentacost and Apsotolic Age, right?

There is no such thing in the Bible...."Apostolic Age"....
There is the 'Age of Grace", the "New Covenant", "Age of the Gentiles" THe only separation is the Old Covenant and the New Covenant! WE are under the same covenant that the apostles were under! Same privilages! Are all called to be an apostle, NO! But we all can manifest the Holy Spirit at HIS will!

 

[DHK]

There is no such thing in the Bible...."Apostolic Age"....
There is the 'Age of Grace", the "New Covenant", "Age of the Gentiles" THe only separation is the Old Covenant and the New Covenant! WE are under the same covenant that the apostles were under! Same privilages! Are all called to be an apostle, NO! But we all can manifest the Holy Spirit at HIS will!

Shall we all bow to your artificial divisions of the Bible? Who made you the one and only authority?

Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
--How do you interpret this verse?
Is there a childhood of Christ?
What about the ministry of Christ? When did it start? When did it end?
I suppose it is impossible to have an "age" of the ministry of Christ, or of "the life of Christ." We have entire books written on "the life of Christ," many of them are called "gospels." But the age of the "life of Christ" means nothing to you, does it? It is just OT and NT. You are the authority.

Have you heard of the "Intertestamental Period," that time period when the Pharisees, Sadducees, the Septuagint, the Apocrypha, and many other things came into being. I suppose not. There is only an OT and NT era in your eyes. Very shallow thinking.

The Book of Acts in and of itself describes the Age of the Apostles, the Apostolic age. Just because you dismiss it doesn't mean it didn't exist. You can deny Nero and Domitian as well, but they did rule. And the apostles did live. And they died. And when they died the the gifts of the Spirit ceased as well. However a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
The apostles did live during the age of grace. They died in the age of grace. They also lived and died during that particular period that is named after them. These truths are self-evident.

You say we all can manifest the Holy Spirit.
That statement doesn't even make sense.
Why don't you get a good dictionary and find out what "Manifestation" means before you use big words that you don't know the definition.

 

[awaken]

Shall we all bow to your artificial divisions of the Bible? Who made you the one and only authority?

Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
--How do you interpret this verse?
Is there a childhood of Christ?
What about the ministry of Christ? When did it start? When did it end?
I suppose it is impossible to have an "age" of the ministry of Christ, or of "the life of Christ." We have entire books written on "the life of Christ," many of them are called "gospels." But the age of the "life of Christ" means nothing to you, does it? It is just OT and NT. You are the authority.

Have you heard of the "Intertestamental Period," that time period when the Pharisees, Sadducees, the Septuagint, the Apocrypha, and many other things came into being. I suppose not. There is only an OT and NT era in your eyes. Very shallow thinking.

The Book of Acts in and of itself describes the Age of the Apostles, the Apostolic age. Just because you dismiss it doesn't mean it didn't exist. You can deny Nero and Domitian as well, but they did rule. And the apostles did live. And they died. And when they died the the gifts of the Spirit ceased as well. However a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
The apostles did live during the age of grace. They died in the age of grace. They also lived and died during that particular period that is named after them. These truths are self-evident.

You say we all can manifest the Holy Spirit.
That statement doesn't even make sense.
Why don't you get a good dictionary and find out what "Manifestation" means before you use big words that you don't know the definition.

Since manifestation has been discussed between us on several threads...I will let that one alone!

"Acts of the apostles" is the name of the book not the "only miraculous acts ever done." Others besides the Twelve performed signs and wonders. It is the Holy Spirit, not just the Twelve, that takes what is of Jesus and making it known to us and works through us. It is true also that it is the Holy Spirit not JUST the apostles that was manifested during that time! You give more credit to the apostles than you do the Holy Spirit.

Acts is not the transitional book as you are teaching! It was them acting out/manifesting what Jesus said they/we could! It was for the believers!

THe same Holy Spirit that was promised on the Day of Pentecost is still here working where we are noe quenching with our unbelief!