Researching apostles...

[saturneptune]

I don't care right now about what you think that passage says.
You made a direct allegation that Paul does not meet the requirements of an Apostle because he never saw the risen Lord.
You have made him a liar.
You have made yourself a liar.
You have called into question the veracity of the Bible.

The Bible's testimony of Paul; Paul's own testimony is: "Christ was seen of me also."
But apparently you still deny that Paul saw the risen Lord.
You don't believe what the Bible says.
It seems that I should ask you if you really are saved, when you deny such direct statements of one seeing the risen Lord. What do you think?

While you are theologically correct, the wording of your post was totally out of bounds, especially as a moderator. We are not suppose to call names, and you are a master at giving others a three point penalty when they (I) call another person an idiot. Yet, you, who are charged with enforcing the rules, turn right around and call someone a liar, not once, but several times.

You have nothing to base your statement on that "you have called into question the veracity of the Bible." The Bible is a large Book, with the total Word of God. One point that you do not agree with does not mean that the said person denies the Bible.

You had no right to say "it seems that I should ask you if you are really saved" which is nothing but a round about way of saying you are not saved. There is nothing to support that statement based on one post in one thread.

Believe it or not, your opinion of what the Bible means is not Inspired. So now, what I want to know is how do I give you a nine point penalty for calling someone a liar three times?

 

[DHK]

While you are theologically correct, the wording of your post was totally out of bounds, especially as a moderator. We are not suppose to call names, and you are a master at giving others a three point penalty when they (I) call another person an idiot. Yet, you, who are charged with enforcing the rules, turn right around and call someone a liar, not once, but several times.

1 Corinthians 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
I don''t call people idiots.
This scripture is plain however.
Paul said he saw the risen Lord.

Was he lying?
Is awaken calling him a liar?
Is the Bible lying about his testimony?
Is awaken lying about both the Bible's testimony of Paul, and Paul's testimony of himself?
Why does awaken continue to persist that Paul never saw the risen Lord, when Paul, in no uncertain terms, said he did?

There is no ambiguity here. There is nothing to debate. It is not up for discussion. It is a straight denial of Scripture. Why lie about it? What is the agenda here? I would like to know. And I don't think I am wrong in asking.

 

[saturneptune]

1 Corinthians 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
I don''t call people idiots.
This scripture is plain however.
Paul said he saw the risen Lord.

Was he lying?
Is awaken calling him a liar?
Is the Bible lying about his testimony?
Is awaken lying about both the Bible's testimony of Paul, and Paul's testimony of himself?
Why does awaken continue to persist that Paul never saw the risen Lord, when Paul, in no uncertain terms, said he did?

There is no ambiguity here. There is nothing to debate. It is not up for discussion. It is a straight denial of Scripture. Why lie about it? What is the agenda here? I would like to know. And I don't think I am wrong in asking.

I believe I said you were theologically correct in all aspects. There are better ways to point out error than call someone a liar, especially from one charged with enforcing the rules. IMO, a person who calls repeatedly, a person with mental illnesses, a person that is receiving punishment from God, is an idiot. I work in the industry, know the Bible, and know this is not so. Yet, you issue three points. Who issues you nine?

The theology of the matter is clear. That is a fact. Your use of names and questioning someone's salvation is up for debate.

 

[awaken]

So, what in your mind would be the purpose of a "modern apostle"?

As I said in the Title...this is researching apostles! So this is an on going search that just started a few months ago! This is what I found in scriptures about the biblical characteristics and ministry of apostles

Acts 2:4 They were filled with the Spirit.
Acts 2:14-36 They preached the Word of God.
Acts 3:1-8 They healed the sick.
Acts 4:1-12 They were persecuted.
Acts 5:1-11 They pronounced God’s judgment.
Acts 5:12 They worked signs and wonders.
Acts 5:42 They taught and preached Jesus Christ.
Acts 6:1-6 They ordained deacons.
Acts 8:14-17 They laid their hands on others to be filled with the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8 and later chapters. They founded and/or strengthened new churches.
Acts 9:36-43 They raised the dead.
Acts 10 They preached to the Gentiles.
Acts 12:1-11 They were martyred, persecuted, and sometimes delivered.
Acts 13:4 They were sent by the Holy Spirit (the root of the word “apostle” means “sent”).
Acts 13:11 They pronounce a curse.
Acts 14:21-22 They confirmed disciples in their faith.
Acts 14:23 They ordained elders.
Acts 15:1-21 They settled doctrinal disputations.
Acts 16:18 They cast out demons.
Acts 19:22 They sent forth other ministering men.
Acts 20-28 list further ministries that apostles performed.
1 Corinthians 3:10 They were wise master builders. They laid spiritual foundations.
1 Corinthians 4:14-15 The apostle Paul warned his “sons” in the faith.
1 Corinthians 7:1 They counseled and answered the saints’ questions.
1 Corinthians 11:34 They set churches in order.
2 Corinthians 11:28 Paul exercised “care of all the churches.”
2 Corinthians 13:10 They used their authority for edification.
Ephesians 2:20 Apostles are part of the foundation of the church.
Ephesians 3:3-5 They received revelation from God.
Ephesians 4:11-12 They perfected the saints.

But Eph. 4 explains it best...For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.

 

[awaken]

I am trying to find in the Bible where the church ( I thought it was Ephesian) examined apostles and they found them fake. They knew there were still apostles around, ones that they did not already know. Why would the Ephesians test men for true apostleship? Why wouldn't they just reject them because there were no more out there?

 

[DHK]

I am trying to find in the Bible where the church ( I thought it was Ephesian) examined apostles and they found them fake. They knew there were still apostles around, ones that they did not already know. Why would the Ephesians test men for true apostleship? Why wouldn't they just reject them because there were no more out there?

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Read the entire chapter. Paul is defending his apostleship to the Corinthians for at least the third time now. He spent two chapters doing this in the first epistle. And now here. He must constantly defend himself against the false teachers in the Corinthian church who say that Paul is not an apostle, but in reality the false teachers themselves are false apostles.
They are taking the true believers away from the truth.

For example, just look at the preceding verses:
2 Corinthians 11:10 As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
11 Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.
12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.

 

[awaken]

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Read the entire chapter. Paul is defending his apostleship to the Corinthians for at least the third time now. He spent two chapters doing this in the first epistle. And now here. He must constantly defend himself against the false teachers in the Corinthian church who say that Paul is not an apostle, but in reality the false teachers themselves are false apostles.
They are taking the true believers away from the truth.

For example, just look at the preceding verses:
2 Corinthians 11:10 As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
11 Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.
12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.

That is not the scripture I was referring to!
I will continue to look for the other scripture.
My point will be ...if they are warned about false prophets/apostles...does't that mean that there are real ones out there?
Why didn't he just tell them that there will be no more prophets/ apostles so ANYONE that claims that.. avoid them?
He also warns against false teachers etc...but we know there are real ones out there, right?

 

[DHK]

That is not the scripture I was referring to!
I will continue to look for the other scripture.
My point will be ...if they are warned about false prophets/apostles...does't that mean that there are real ones out there?
Why didn't he just tell them that there will be no more prophets/ apostles so ANYONE that claims that.. avoid them?
He also warns against false teachers etc...but we know there are real ones out there, right?

There were always by false-Christs on this earth. That doesn't mean Christ is physically on this earth. The Bible tells us plainly to beware of false Christs and of anti-Christs.
There are false apostles today, and always have been. We have the "Apostolic Church," The Mormon Church, both of which believe they have apostolic lineage. In fact the Mormons believe they can trace their ancestry right back to Adam. That doesn't make it true. Just because people claim things doesn't make the claim true. Neither does it make the opposite thereof possible for today.

 

[awaken]

There were always by false-Christs on this earth. That doesn't mean Christ is physically on this earth. The Bible tells us plainly to beware of false Christs and of anti-Christs.
There are false apostles today, and always have been. We have the "Apostolic Church," The Mormon Church, both of which believe they have apostolic lineage. In fact the Mormons believe they can trace their ancestry right back to Adam. That doesn't make it true. Just because people claim things doesn't make the claim true. Neither does it make the opposite thereof possible for today.

Point taken! But I am still searching this out...so I will know that I know what I believe concerning this!

 

[awaken]

Most of the points have not been addressed. But if I would have just put Eph. 4 out there. It is plain as I have said over and over...

“When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men” ... [11] It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Have we reached unity in faith?
In knowledge of the Son of God and become mature?
Attained to the whole measure of the fulness of Christ?

Have we?

 

[DHK]

Most of the points have not been addressed. But if I would have just put Eph. 4 out there. It is plain as I have said over and over...

“When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men” ... [11] It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Have we reached unity in faith?
In knowledge of the Son of God and become mature?
Attained to the whole measure of the fulness of Christ?

Have we?

The apostolic age ended at the end of the first century. The apostles have all died. So have the prophets who lived at the same time. The gift of prophesy ceased with the apostles.
The rest of the ministries mentioned are still in operation. God still calls: evangelists, pastors, and teachers. Why? For the sanctification of the believers in the local churches.

No church will ever reach perfect unity of the church, but we can reach a semblance of the unity of the faith. I believe in our church we have a unity of the faith. We are not divided over doctrine. We agree to the same statement of faith. We have good teachers and pastors. I can't speak for other churches, but I can speak for my own.

As to your other two questions, ask yourself? Have you attained? If not why not? Perhaps you are in the wrong church.

 

[saturneptune]

Never mind, serves no purpose

 

[awaken]

The apostolic age ended at the end of the first century. The apostles have all died. So have the prophets who lived at the same time. The gift of prophesy ceased with the apostles.
The rest of the ministries mentioned are still in operation. God still calls: evangelists, pastors, and teachers. Why? For the sanctification of the believers in the local churches.

No church will ever reach perfect unity of the church, but we can reach a semblance of the unity of the faith. I believe in our church we have a unity of the faith. We are not divided over doctrine. We agree to the same statement of faith. We have good teachers and pastors. I can't speak for other churches, but I can speak for my own.

As to your other two questions, ask yourself? Have you attained? If not why not? Perhaps you are in the wrong church.

YOu still have yet to prove by scripture that the aposltes ended at the end of the first century! So therefore it is just your opinon!

Again the apostle Paul gives us additional proofs that apostles and prophets were to continue during the Church Age.
“When He ascended on high...He gave...some to be apostles, some to be prophets...” These were not the original Twelve apostles. This refers to apostles and prophets that Jesus continued to give after His ascension to heaven! For that reason some have called the “fivefold” ministries of Ephesians 4:11 the “ascension gift ministries.” Having ascended to heaven, Jesus continues to give all five, not just evangelists, pastors and teachers.

And this giving of five ministries by Christ was not just to get the early church started. Rather, the giving of all five is needed “until we all...become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.” That is an ongoing process occupying the entire time between Jesus’ First Coming and His Second Coming.

 

[awaken]

God the Father and Jesus the Son of God is who give these ministries to the church. Jesus Himself is the premier expression of each of these offices.
“Jesus, the apostle...whom we confess” (Hebrews 3:1)

“This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth” (Matthew 21:11).

Jesus was certainly the Great Soulwinner, the consummate evangelist.

Jesus is “the Shepherd [Greek word for “pastor”] and Overseer of your souls” (1 Peter 2:25).

“Rabbi, we know you [Jesus] are a teacher who has come from God” (John 3:2).
It seems that Jesus — the chief apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher — is giving an expression of Himself to the Church in the form of these ministry gifts. For example, in Paul, Peter, and the other apostles we see a partial reflection of the perfect apostleship of Christ. In Agabus (Acts 11:27; 21:10) and other Christian prophets we see a partial expression of the perfect prophetic ministry of Jesus. The same could be said for God-given evangelists, pastors and teachers.

 

[DHK]

YOu still have yet to prove by scripture that the aposltes ended at the end of the first century! So therefore it is just your opinon!

Common sesne, awaken; common sense! How do we know anything about history.
How do we know when the 19th Dynasty (the Age of the Ramses) ended?
--The same way we know when the Apostolic Age ended.
The Age of the Ramses, the 19th Dynasty was from 1293 B.C. to 1185 B.C. It began when Seti I (who later became Ramses the Great) defeated the warrior kings of the 18th Dynasty. During this famous reign the Dynasty went through 8 different leaders ending with the reign of a queen who could not keep control of the country. She was ousted in a revolt led by [FONT=&quot]Setnakhte, the founder of 20th Dynasty.

The Apostolic Age began at Pentecost, and ended, likewise, with the death of the last Apostle, John, ca. 102 A.D. It is history that backs this up.

Would you also like me to tell you of the House of Tudor of England? When it began and when it ended? Of the famous "Bloody Mary of Tudor," that zealous Catholic queen who persecuted everyone who wasn't Catholic. It ended when the last Tudor either died or was overthrown.
The answer to your question is obvious. The Apostolic Age ended with the death of the last Apostle. No Scripture needed. [/FONT]
It is not just opinion.

Again the apostle Paul gives us additional proofs that apostles and prophets were to continue during the Church Age.
“When He ascended on high...He gave...some to be apostles, some to be prophets...” These were not the original Twelve apostles. This refers to apostles and prophets that Jesus continued to give after His ascension to heaven! For that reason some have called the “fivefold” ministries of Ephesians 4:11 the “ascension gift ministries.” Having ascended to heaven, Jesus continues to give all five, not just evangelists, pastors and teachers.

The Apostolic Age ended when the 12 Apostles died. Signs and wonders were given to the 12 Apostles to authenticate their ministry, not anyone else's ministry. We have no evidence, for example, that Sylvanus could do signs and wonders. Heb.2:3,4 specifically states that the gifts of the Spirit were given to them that were eyewitnesses of Christ. "They that heard him," i.e., his own apostles.

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
--This refers to the 12, not to the others that are referred to as "apostles." Not every person referred to as an apostle walked and talked with Jesus, and heard his words. Only the 12 could have that testimony.

And this giving of five ministries by Christ was not just to get the early church started. Rather, the giving of all five is needed “until we all...become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.” That is an ongoing process occupying the entire time between Jesus’ First Coming and His Second Coming.

This is just your opinion and misinterpretation of this passage. It does not harmonize with the rest of Scripture. The office of the Apostle and prophet does not exist any longer, and you have no Biblical grounds to say that it does.

The "early church" was "The First Baptist Church at Jerusalem." From there other local churches were started, such as the one at Samaria, Antioch, Ephesus, Philippi, Corinth, etc. There were churches, not "The Church." The passage in Ephesians was written to the church at Ephesus where Timothy was the pastor. The church had many pastors of whom Timothy was the senior pastor (Acts 20:17,28). Paul is addressing the church at Ephesus when he mentions apostles and prophets, not the churches in America.
The apostles and prophets laid the foundation of the church, each local church, with Jesus being the chief cornerstone. We are the building blocks.

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

 

[awaken]

Common sesne, awaken; common sense! How do we know anything about history.

Well I think the Bible trumps common sense in this case! What you posted has no Bible scriptures to back it up..therefore it is just assumptions on your part!
.

The Apostolic Age began at Pentecost, and ended, likewise, with the death of the last Apostle, John, ca. 102 A.D. It is history that backs this up.

The Apostolic Age ended with the death of the last Apostle. No Scripture needed. [/FONT]
It is not just opinion.

Who is to say who the last apostle was? Forgive me! But scriptures IS needed to back up any doctrine! I have presented more scriptures proving that apostles were given to the church AFTER Christ ascended than you have to back up your theories!

The Apostolic Age ended when the 12 Apostles died. Signs and wonders were given to the 12 Apostles to authenticate their ministry, not anyone else's ministry. We have no evidence, for example, that Sylvanus could do signs and wonders. Heb.2:3,4 specifically states that the gifts of the Spirit were given to them that were eyewitnesses of Christ. "They that heard him," i.e., his own apostles.

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
--This refers to the 12, not to the others that are referred to as "apostles." Not every person referred to as an apostle walked and talked with Jesus, and heard his words. Only the 12 could have that testimony.

How do you know what they encounted with Jesus? More assumptions without scriptures! The scripture you posted only said that God bear them witness with signs and wonders...well I can show you others than the apostles bear witness of the same!

This is just your opinion and misinterpretation of this passage. It does not harmonize with the rest of Scripture. The office of the Apostle and prophet does not exist any longer, and you have no Biblical grounds to say that it does.

YOu mean it does not harmonize with your interpretation and theory...so you say it is wrong! Well, scriptures trump your opinion anyday!

The "early church" was "The First Baptist Church at Jerusalem." From there other local churches were started, such as the one at Samaria, Antioch, Ephesus, Philippi, Corinth, etc. There were churches, not "The Church." The passage in Ephesians was written to the church at Ephesus where Timothy was the pastor. The church had many pastors of whom Timothy was the senior pastor (Acts 20:17,28). Paul is addressing the church at Ephesus when he mentions apostles and prophets, not the churches in America.
The apostles and prophets laid the foundation of the church, each local church, with Jesus being the chief cornerstone. We are the building blocks. Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

I will agree that Jesus is the cornerstone...apostles and prophets laid the foundation! But where does it say that we do not need what the apostles and prophets did then. There will be prophets in the very last days!

 

[DHK]

Who is to say who the last apostle was? Forgive me! But scriptures IS needed to back up any doctrine! I have presented more scriptures proving that apostles were given to the church AFTER Christ ascended than you have to back up your theories!

Judas was replaced by Matthias.
Paul was one "born out of due time. But Paul was an exception, and not one of the 12. Matthias was the 12, the last to be chosen. We know from history that John was the youngest, and lived the longest. There is no disputing this fact. Whom am I to say? I am an authority for the years of study I have done. I teach courses on NT Survey, NT Introduction, The Gospel of John and other related courses. So, yes, I can say it with some degree of authority. John was the last living apostle who died at the end of the first century or the very beginning of the 2nd, shortly after the Book of Revelation was written ca. 98 A.D.
There are 12 Apostles I have given you plenty of Scripture on that before.
There will be 12 names of 12 Apostles written on the foundation of the 12 walls of the New Jerusalem. Whose names do you think will be there? Yours?

How do you know what they encounted with Jesus? More assumptions without scriptures! The scripture you posted only said that God bear them witness with signs and wonders...well I can show you others than the apostles bear witness of the same!

How many people alive today were witnesses of Jesus and actually heard his words while he was on earth? Study again Heb.2:3,4 and see what it means. They were eye-witnesses. There is no one alive today that can measure up to what the writer of Hebrews records in those verses.

I will agree that Jesus is the cornerstone...apostles and prophets laid the foundation! But where does it say that we do not need what the apostles and prophets did then. There will be prophets in the very last days!

Deal with "these" days.
Don't argue from silence.
Where does it say we will drive cars to churches?

 

[awaken]

Judas was replaced by Matthias.
Paul was one "born out of due time. But Paul was an exception, and not one of the 12. Matthias was the 12, the last to be chosen. We know from history that John was the youngest, and lived the longest. There is no disputing this fact. Whom am I to say? I am an authority for the years of study I have done. I teach courses on NT Survey, NT Introduction, The Gospel of John and other related courses. So, yes, I can say it with some degree of authority. John was the last living apostle who died at the end of the first century or the very beginning of the 2nd, shortly after the Book of Revelation was written ca. 98 A.D.
There are 12 Apostles I have given you plenty of Scripture on that before.
There will be 12 names of 12 Apostles written on the foundation of the 12 walls of the New Jerusalem. Whose names do you think will be there? Yours?

There are prophets and apostles after Jesus ascended! Eph. 4 proves that....that means he called out more! Will they be on the wall, probably not! But neither will Paul...so 12 names written on the foundation does not prove that he did not send out more apostles!

How many people alive today were witnesses of Jesus and actually heard his words while he was on earth? Study again Heb.2:3,4 and see what it means. They were eye-witnesses. There is no one alive today that can measure up to what the writer of Hebrews records in those verses.

Deal with "these" days.
Don't argue from silence.
Where does it say we will drive cars to churches?

Again...you came up with that to satisfy your theory! Nothing in scriptures that you have post proves that apostles and prophets are no longer needed in the church!

THERE WILL BE PROPHETS DURING THE TRIBULATION!

 

[DHK]

There are prophets and apostles after Jesus ascended! Eph. 4 proves that....that means he called out more!

That is an Apostle writing an epistle to a first century church while the apostles were still living. You ignore historical context. They all died at the end of the first century. There is nothing there to say they would continue as you continue to assert and misinterpret.

Will they be on the wall, probably not! But neither will Paul...so 12 names written on the foundation does not prove that he did not send out more apostles!

The apostles are constantly referred in Scripture to as "The Twelve."
Why the unbelief?

Again...you came up with that to satisfy your theory! Nothing in scriptures that you have post proves that apostles and prophets are no longer needed in the church!

There is no more scripture written today. We have a closed canon. The apostles remained until the Scripture was finished.

2 Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
--The words of the Apostles are now Scripture.

THERE WILL BE PROPHETS DURING THE TRIBULATION!

To be specific there will but two prophets.

 

[awaken]

That is an Apostle writing an epistle to a first century church while the apostles were still living. You ignore historical context. They all died at the end of the first century. There is nothing there to say they would continue as you continue to assert and misinterpret.
The apostles are constantly referred in Scripture to as "The Twelve."
Why the unbelief?
There is no more scripture written today. We have a closed canon. The apostles remained until the Scripture was finished.

First off others wrote the Bible..not just the apostles!
So where is it stated in scriptures that the apostles had to stay until the scriptures are finished? See you give so many theories and assumptions that scriptures do not back up!

I believe in the twelve...so I am not in unbelief! You on the other hand do not believe in apostles for today. So who is in unbelief??

You can not explain away the fact that apostles were sent AFTER the ascension! THerefore there were other apostles! The original 12 were called out BEFORE the ascension!

2 Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
--The words of the Apostles are now Scripture.
To be specific there will but two prophets.

That does not prove that apostles are not needed today! Apostles did more than write the Bible..and as I stated earlier, others wrote the Bible too!