Resistable Grace (?)

[Bismarck]

For many are called, but few [are] chosen.
Matt 22:14​

"Chosen" = eklektos (G1586), from whence the word "elect" comes from.

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.
Rev 17:14​

Being "elected" by God is not enough to be a member of Christendom. Rather, you must also be faithful.

So, to prove that Election is unshakeable, you must show that being "elected" (chosen) automatically inspires unshakeable faith — to wit, a faith that cannot backslide.

But, Hebrews 6:4-8 clearly speaks of those who Believed, but then backslid.

And, this seems to be the warning of Matt 24:24 as well, "For false Messiahs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect."


So, it seems to me that all are called (John 12:32; cf. Luke 12:32)...

some are chosen / elected...

and of those, only the Faithful are members of the Body of Christ — whereas, indeed, Hebrews 6:4-8 warns that those who backslide after Believing are doomed.

 

[Bismarck]

But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
John 6:64-66​

We know from John 6:44 that no man can come to Christ unless he is "drawn" by the Father, YHWH-God.

Yet, we know from John 12:32 that, since the day Jesus Christ was raised up (ie, crucified), all men have been "drawn" to Christ.

However, this passage here in John 6:64-66 happened before the crucifixion. Thus, at the time Jesus spoke these words, all men were not yet being drawn to Christ.

In particular, it seems clear that those who did not believe in the Messiah at this point (John 6:64-66) were not being "drawn" to God.

This would seem to prove that, unless God draws a man, that man is doomed to Unbelief.

The only question seems to be, whether John 12:32 means what it clearly seems to say, namely that since Passover 30 AD, all men have been drawn to God — and, thereby, by God's unmerited Mercy and Grace, given the help they need to have the chance to turn to God.

 

[Jarthur001]

For many are called, but few [are] chosen.
Matt 22:14​

"Chosen" = eklektos (G1586), from whence the word "elect" comes from.

ok

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.
Rev 17:14​

Being "elected" by God is not enough to be a member of Christendom. Rather, you must also be faithful.

What do you feel the context means here? This word at times means believe. Does it mean believe in this case?

So, to prove that Election is unshakeable, you must show that being "elected" (chosen) automatically inspires unshakeable faith — to wit, a faith that cannot backslide.

Or...I can show that God never fails, and show why we are elected, and that should do it.

But, Hebrews 6:4-8 clearly speaks of those who Believed, but then backslid.

You clearly need to read that chapter again. Start near the end of chapter 5

And, this seems to be the warning of Matt 24:24 as well, "For false Messiahs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect."

The greatness of wonders and signs that these false men show, must be very very great that if the controlling factor is left in the hearts of the elect, that they may for a moment believe these wonders and the false teachings. That is the point. However, believing is not the base of our faith. Believing is the last part and end fruit from election. Grace by election is the base which starts the path to salvation.

I can wake up in the morning and feel dead, but that does not mean I am dead. I may question my faith, but that does not mean I loss my salvation. Again, in the end, before salvation comes to us we must believe. But also again, this is not the base. The base is that we are in Christ. We belong to Him. He bought us with His blood. We are elected to believe and that election will never change. Where as our faith may at times be strong, and at other times be weak. Gods grace saves us, and keeps us.

So back to your verse.....is it possible to fully mislead the elect? Yes...they may look at the false signs and wonder but will not God pull back his sheep? Does the power of Gods salvation fail? Who is in control?

So, it seems to me that all are called (John 12:32; cf. Luke 12:32)...

some are chosen / elected...

ok

and of those, only the Faithful are members of the Body of Christ — whereas, indeed, Hebrews 6:4-8 warns that those who backslide after Believing are doomed.

start a thread on Hebrews 6 and we will talk about it.

 

[Allan]

ok


What do you feel the context means here? This word at times means believe. Does it mean believe in this case?


Or...I can show that God never fails, and show why we are elected, and that should do it.


You clearly need to read that chapter again. Start near the end of chapter 5


The greatness of wonders and signs that these false men show, must be very very great that if the controlling factor is left in the hearts of the elect, that they may for a moment believe these wonders and the false teachings. That is the point. However, believing is not the base of our faith. Believing is the last part and end fruit from election. Grace by election is the base which starts the path to salvation.

I can wake up in the morning and feel dead, but that does not mean I am dead. I may question my faith, but that does not mean I loss my salvation. Again, in the end, before salvation comes to us we must believe. But also again, this is not the base. The base is that we are in Christ. We belong to Him. He bought us with His blood. We are elected to believe and that election will never change. Where as our faith may at times be strong, and at other times be weak. Gods grace saves us, and keeps us.

So back to your verse.....is it possible to fully mislead the elect? Yes...they may look at the false signs and wonder but will not God pull back his sheep? Does the power of Gods salvation fail? Who is in control?


ok


start a thread on Hebrews 6 and we will talk about it.

Ok, James - ready for this??

Though we may disagree on a few mechanics, I AGREE with what you wrote.

Is this one of those wonders and signs?? :laugh: :laugh:

 

[pinoybaptist]

...........
Is this one of those wonders and signs?? :laugh: :laugh:

gasp ! gasp !

I think I just saw the moon and the sun side by side for a minute.

:laugh:

 

[Cutter]

Is not Matthew 24 dealing with the time of the Great Tribulation when the Gentile Bride will be with Christ and the elect in verse 14 referring to Israel?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Matt. 22:14 tells us, many were 'called', but afterward, few are 'chosen'.

I understand this verse telling us, many were called means they were saved at the beginning of their salvation. Like as 1 Peter 2:9-10 telling us, we were called out of the dark, into the light. When we heard the gospel, and believed in Christ, we repented from sins and walk into the light to follow Christ. But, later, many of us turn away from the Lord, many are not endure in their life, no longer follow Christ. So, at the end of their life, they died while not endure for Christ. They are not 'chosen'. What will be happen to them? They will be end up in everlasting fire.

Throughout Bible commands us we ought to be abide in Christ, hold fast our faith and hope unto the end. Or, if we do not hold fast our faith and hope in our life at the end of our life, we shall not be victory, and will be end up in everlasting fire.

Rev. 2:11; 3:5 warns us, if we FAIL to overcome them in our life, we shall suffer the second death, and our names might be blot out of the book of life, cast away into everlasting fire.

These are serious warnings with conditional. We must take heed God's Word, and obey them, so, we can have everlasting life and be victory at the end.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I strong disagree with Calvinism's teaching one point of the five points - 'Irresistible Grace'.

Bible teaching us that we can resist against God.

In Hebrews chapter 3 and 4 warn us that, we do NOT hardened against God, like as what Israel did to God in the wilderness.

Yes, we can resist against God.

In 1 Thess. 5:18 or 19 warn us that, we do not quench the Spirit. Many of us did quench the Holy Spirit, obivously, we did grieve the Holy Spirit(Eph. 4:30).

Bible commands us that, we ought take heed God's Word, and Holy Spirit, obey Him, do not resist against him.

If we resist against Him, then we cannot enter the 'rest' - everlasting life at the end of our life. Mentioned in Hebrews chapter 3 and 4.

Bible commands us, we ought hold fast and be endure for Christ in our life, yield up to Christ daily in our life- "take up the cross and follow Christ daily".

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Allan]

Matt. 22:14 tells us, many were 'called', but afterward, few are 'chosen'.

I understand this verse telling us, many were called means they were saved at the beginning of their salvation. Like as 1 Peter 2:9-10 telling us, we were called out of the dark, into the light. When we heard the gospel, and believed in Christ, we repented from sins and walk into the light to follow Christ. But, later, many of us turn away from the Lord, many are not endure in their life, no longer follow Christ. So, at the end of their life, they died while not endure for Christ. They are not 'chosen'. What will be happen to them? They will be end up in everlasting fire.

Throughout Bible commands us we ought to be abide in Christ, hold fast our faith and hope unto the end. Or, if we do not hold fast our faith and hope in our life at the end of our life, we shall not be victory, and will be end up in everlasting fire.

Rev. 2:11; 3:5 warns us, if we FAIL to overcome them in our life, we shall suffer the second death, and our names might be blot out of the book of life, cast away into everlasting fire.

These are serious warnings with conditional. We must take heed God's Word, and obey them, so, we can have everlasting life and be victory at the end.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

You would be correct about being saved one moment and then later on loosing it, IF our salvation were based on two principle things.

1. That God saved us and did not give us a new nature (an eternally changed nature at that ).
2. If our salvation depended upon our faithfulness to God and not Gods faithfulness to His declared word (promise).
IOW - if maintaining our salvation was dependant upon our power to keep us rather than Gods power to keep us (1 Peter 1).

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Allan,

Yes, we agree that, God is faithful, and He have the power to perseve us.

in 1 Timothy chapter 4 tell us, we do deny, but Christ, himself cannot deny, because he is faithful. We all are human and we easy to fail. Christ never fail.

John 10:27-29 telling us, Christ have the power to hold us in his hand, WHILE we listen and follow him same time. Or, if we stopped follow Christ, then, Christ would loose us out of his hand.

Bible commands us we ought to hold fast our faith and hope to be abide in Christ and follow him all the way to the end. If we stopped follow Him at the end, then we shall not enter into 'rest'- eternal life.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Tom Butler]

...Hebrews 6:4-8 warns that those who backslide after Believing are doomed.

Actually, the Hebrews passage is not about backsliding. Nor is about losing one's salvation.

It warns the Hebrews to whom it is written not to return to the old ways--turning away from grace to the law. The whole of Hebrews speaks of the New Covenant as the better covenant.

Read it carefully. It does not speak of falling from grace. It speaks of "falling away" from grace. Two different things.

 

[JustChristian]

Actually, the Hebrews passage is not about backsliding. Nor is about losing one's salvation.

It warns the Hebrews to whom it is written not to return to the old ways--turning away from grace to the law. The whole of Hebrews speaks of the New Covenant as the better covenant.

Read it carefully. It does not speak of falling from grace. It speaks of "falling away" from grace. Two different things.

Hbr 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hbr 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

I don't see your interpretation in these words. This is talking about those "who have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost."

My interpretation is that this has to be someone who has been saved under the second covenant. After Christ's resurrection the writer could not have meant anything else by this statement. The book of Hebrews is the Gospel as presented to the Jews, not some warning about salvation under the first covenant. These verses say exactly what they seem to say. Those who claim to be Christians but live like the world are in danger.

 

[Bismarck]

Hbr 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hbr 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

I don't see your interpretation in these words. This is talking about those "who have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost."

My interpretation is that this has to be someone who has been saved under the second covenant. After Christ's resurrection the writer could not have meant anything else by this statement. The book of Hebrews is the Gospel as presented to the Jews, not some warning about salvation under the first covenant. These verses say exactly what they seem to say. Those who claim to be Christians but live like the world are in danger.

BB, May I add that the words "they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh" demands your interpretation.

It clearly refers to their previous unbelief have been a first crucifixion, which their subsequent Belief "wiped away"... so that, if they now disbelieve, the crucify the Messiah again — and this time wittingly, w/o any excuse of ignorance (?).

In any event, it clearly refers to a second crucifixion, which implies a first.

 

[Bismarck]

Is not Matthew 24 dealing with the time of the Great Tribulation when the Gentile Bride will be with Christ and the elect in verse 14 referring to Israel?

I don't think so.

The Jews were the first to be "invited" (verse 8, NASB), but they were not worthy.

Then, and only then, was the invitation broadened to include gentiles (those along the "highways" and "streets", verses 9-10, NASB).

But, the invitation of the gentiles is STILL selective — the ungrateful gentile who doesn't come "in wedding clothes" (verse 11), to wit, w/ proper care and respect and reverence, is ALSO cast out (verse 13).

The "chosen" in verse 14 is the "True Spiritual Israel", which is composed of those Jews who accepted the Messiah (the remaining "cultivated olive branches" not broken off, Romans 11:17-20) and those Gentiles who accepted the Messiah (the "wild olive branches grafted in", Romans 11:17).

The image is that of an olive tree. The roots are the Patriarchs, from Abraham forward. The trunk is the Judges and Kings of Israel. The Branches are the Jews who were scattered far and wide, by Sargon II (722 BC), Nebuchadrezzar (586 BC), and the Greek Diaspora (c. 300 BC forward).

Many of those scattered Jewish "branches" didn't Believe, and were broken off.

Into their place, Gentiles who did Believe were "grafted" in. So, it's a "wierd looking tree", a hybrid, of Messianic Jews and Christian Gentiles, represented as the remaining natural branches plus the grafted on wild branches.

That is the "True Spiritual Israel" that is "Chosen".

 

[Benjamin]

You would be correct about being saved one moment and then later on loosing it, IF our salvation were based on two principle things.

1. That God saved us and did not give us a new nature (an eternally changed nature at that ).
2. If our salvation depended upon our faithfulness to God and not Gods faithfulness to His declared word (promise).
IOW - if maintaining our salvation was dependant upon our power to keep us rather than Gods power to keep us (1 Peter 1).

God’s power to keep us---yet maintaining a real possibility in volition ---I call that “preservation” of the saints.

Hebrews 6:4-6 is something that a believer might look at and examine himself and thereby keeping himself as close to obedience as possible in his hope. And this while having faith but not so overconfident as to throw away the value of good works in his perceived liberty of being a son, and at the same time not even knowing what to pray for as he ought (not willing to deny his faith but concerned about his actions) in this examination of self that true believer seeing faults in himself is not willing to let go of his faith of Who he is in; he will then reach out to his Master in repentance and for guidance. See, God knows how our evil little minds work and know how to keep us on the path in our liberties. A righteous believer will fear God as a son, as would a mortal son fear his loving earthly father’s word, only more, knowing of his love but also knowing the warning to be true because of that faith and trust in his father’s message.

Just thought I’d throw this out there in incase that busy paragraph happens to make some sense to anybody else.


(Rom 8:12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

(Rom 8:13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

(Rom 8:14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

(Rom 8:15) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

(Rom 8:16) The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

(Rom 8:17) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

(Rom 8:18) For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

(Rom 8:19) For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

(Rom 8:20) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

(Rom 8:21) Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

 

[Allan]

God’s power to keep us---yet maintaining a real possibility in volition ---I call that “preservation” of the saints.

Hebrews 6:4-6 is something that a believer might look at and examine himself and thereby keeping himself as close to obedience as possible in his hope. And this while having faith but not so overconfident as to throw away the value of good works in his perceived liberty of being a son, and at the same time not even knowing what to pray for as he ought (not willing to deny his faith but concerned about his actions) in this examination of self that true believer seeing faults in himself is not willing to let go of his faith of Who he is in; he will then reach out to his Master in repentance and for guidance. See, God knows how our evil little minds work and know how to keep us on the path in our liberties. A righteous believer will fear God as a son, as would a mortal son fear his loving earthly father’s word, only more, knowing of his love but also knowing the warning to be true because of that faith and trust in his father’s message.

Just thought I’d throw this out there in incase that busy paragraph happens to make some sense to anybody else.


(Rom 8:12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

(Rom 8:13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

(Rom 8:14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

(Rom 8:15) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

(Rom 8:16) The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

(Rom 8:17) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

(Rom 8:18) For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

(Rom 8:19) For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

(Rom 8:20) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

(Rom 8:21) Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Okkkkk.?

And your point is?