Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Can a life-giving message help? If not, why not? Why couldn't the WORD of God enable a free response?
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Response-ability and Total Inability
- Thread starter Skandelon
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Can a life-giving message help? If not, why not? Why couldn't the WORD of God enable a free response?
Because Biblical words have no power to overrule the power of indwelling sin even in a saved person - Rom. 7:18. Even in a saved person the will and actions must receive their power from God working in them - Philip. 2:13. You are demanding from an unregenerate person what even a regenerate person is incapable of doing.
If you would have said "Why couldn't God through His word enable a free response" then we would be in agreement. But you divorce God from His Word when the power is in God SPEAKING His Word as a creative command (2 Cor. 4:6; Eph. 2:10; James 1:18) not in the scriptures as ink on the pages or from the mouth of FINITE humans.
because there is NOTHING inherit within the fallen nature to respond to that message, as the Spirit tHimself must quicken us and enable us to receive it and in turn believe it!
BOTH Cals/Arms affirm that truth, we just state ONLY the Elect receive that working of Him, Arms affirm all sinners do, are you disagreeing with both those views now?
Didn't jesus say that its the Spirit Himself that brings life unto sinners, not just the preached word?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
"He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him Not" John 1.
"I STAND at the door and KNOCK if anyone hears my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in" Rev 3.
"9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Romans 10
And of course the "Whosever will" of Rev 22:17
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Correction.
God grants to the LOST the DRAWING of ALL, the DRAWING of John 6, the DRAWING of John 12 "I will DRAW ALL unto Me"
, the Emnity between themselves and sin as promised in Genesis 3
- and not only DRAWS ALL- but also "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16.
"God was IN Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself" 2Cor 5
Jesus said He came to "SEEK and Save the LOST"
There is NO TEXT that says "All drawn will come to Christ".
But we DO have "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" john 1.
"I STAND at the door and KNOCK if anyone hears my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in" Rev 3.
"9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Romans 10
And of course the "Whosever will" of Rev 22:17
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Correction.
God grants to the LOST the DRAWING of ALL, the DRAWING of John 6, the DRAWING of John 12 "I will DRAW ALL unto Me"
, the Emnity between themselves and sin as promised in Genesis 3
- and not only DRAWS ALL- but also "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16.
"God was IN Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself" 2Cor 5
Jesus said He came to "SEEK and Save the LOST"
There is NO TEXT that says "All drawn will come to Christ".
But we DO have "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" john 1.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Ok, so you believe man's sin nature is more powerful than the Gospel...and somehow you base that upon your exegesis of a passage that doesn't even mention the gospel, right?
So the last time you sinned...where you able to willingly resist that temptation, or was it out of your control? Did God just decide not to give you what you needed to resist that last lie, that last lustful thought, that last jealous thought?
So, you don't believe the inspired words of God written in the pages of scripture, or the proclaim truth of God ('truth' which is said to set men free) has power?
But ONLY words God himself actually utters carry power? Is that your argument?
You have hit on the difference between non Calvinists and Calvinists Skan. Calvinists believe there are two kinds of call, the "general call" and the "effectual call"
In God's "general call" there is no power. I find that impossible to believe, but that is what Reformed/Calvinists believe. When God calls men with the "general call" there is no power to regenerate a man.
Calvinists believe only when God calls a man with the "effectual call" will he be regenerated and enabled to believe.
In this view a preacher can preach to a crowd, some will hear the "general call" and remain unconverted, while others will hear the "effectual call" and be regenerated.
Now come on. Even you have to admit that some hearing the Word of God are angry and/or indifferent others are savingly receptive. The former remain unconverted and the latter group are newly regenerated.
It is obvious that some are converted and others are not, that is not the issue.
The issue is that Reformed/Calvinists teach that the "general call" does not have regenerating power. I believe this is false doctrine.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
According to these verses, God's word is always quick and powerful, and able to pierce between man's soul and spirit.
And note that verse 13 says there is not any creature that is not manifest in his sight.
So, God is not sending out two kinds of calls, but one, and that call is always alive and powerful.
The difference is the person who hears. The word of God only effectually works in those that believe.
1 The 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
The word of God is powerful, but it only effectually works in those that believe. A stick of dynamite has tremendous power, but it only works effectually if you light the fuse. Believing can be compared to lighting the fuse of God's word.
This same chapter that says God's word is quick and powerful tells us why some were not saved. It was not because they heard a different gospel, not because they heard a powerless "general call" but because they did not believe.
Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
This warning does not make sense if the Reformed view is correct. No man can possibly believe the "general call" in the Reformed view, so this warning is meaningless and vain, and no man can resist the "effectual call" so again, no warning is necessary or even sensible.
The same gospel was preached to all, but it did not profit those who would not believe. The fault is not that they heard a powerless call, but that they failed to believe God's powerful word that would have given them life.
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psalms109:31
Active Member
We all start of being angry of the revelation of who we are. Dead in sin and some still reject it, they want to be alive different from everyone else.
Maybe the real reason some turn to Jesus is because of the attitude of the one with the message.
All people are different maybe one is not attracted to the way those who call themselves a Christian act and others are.
Maybe one is angry because the way they were treated by a believer or another is attracted to that kind of behavior.
I rather in my nature to be just chosen than to have to turn to Jesus and be saved, that turning to Jesus is just a formality, but I know it isn't I will not be born again or become the new creation if I don't. In Christ I am Chosen before the foundation of the world.
It takes the word of Jesus my Spirit and life to have the ability to do so. If I don't drink His blood and eat His flesh I have no life in me.
All men physically need food to live just as we do Spiritually if you don't eat you will not live Spiritually you will not be regenerated period. Jesus is that Spiritual food so eat and leave nothing left.
Our attraction should be to Jesus Christ and all He is.
"There is no life in God the Father for a sinner; there is no life in God the Spirit for a sinner apart from Jesus. The life of a sinner is in Christ. If you take the Father apart from the Son, though he loves his elect, and decrees that they shall live, yet life is only in his Son. If you take God the Spirit apart from Jesus Christ, though it is the Spirit that gives us spiritual life, yet it is life in Christ, life in the Son. We dare not, and cannot apply in the first place, either to God the Father, or to God the Holy Ghost for spiritual life. The first thing we are led to do when God brings us out of Egypt is to eat the Passover—the very first thing. The first means whereby we get life is by feeding upon the flesh and blood of the Son of God; living in him, trusting on him, believing in his grace and power. Our second thought was—there is life in Christ."
C.H. Spurgeon
Maybe the real reason some turn to Jesus is because of the attitude of the one with the message.
All people are different maybe one is not attracted to the way those who call themselves a Christian act and others are.
Maybe one is angry because the way they were treated by a believer or another is attracted to that kind of behavior.
I rather in my nature to be just chosen than to have to turn to Jesus and be saved, that turning to Jesus is just a formality, but I know it isn't I will not be born again or become the new creation if I don't. In Christ I am Chosen before the foundation of the world.
It takes the word of Jesus my Spirit and life to have the ability to do so. If I don't drink His blood and eat His flesh I have no life in me.
All men physically need food to live just as we do Spiritually if you don't eat you will not live Spiritually you will not be regenerated period. Jesus is that Spiritual food so eat and leave nothing left.
Our attraction should be to Jesus Christ and all He is.
"There is no life in God the Father for a sinner; there is no life in God the Spirit for a sinner apart from Jesus. The life of a sinner is in Christ. If you take the Father apart from the Son, though he loves his elect, and decrees that they shall live, yet life is only in his Son. If you take God the Spirit apart from Jesus Christ, though it is the Spirit that gives us spiritual life, yet it is life in Christ, life in the Son. We dare not, and cannot apply in the first place, either to God the Father, or to God the Holy Ghost for spiritual life. The first thing we are led to do when God brings us out of Egypt is to eat the Passover—the very first thing. The first means whereby we get life is by feeding upon the flesh and blood of the Son of God; living in him, trusting on him, believing in his grace and power. Our second thought was—there is life in Christ."
C.H. Spurgeon
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Right, which is why it is preposterous to teach that men are RESPONSIBLE for the General Call when they are supposedly not RESPONSE-ABLE for the General Call.
And on what basis do they presume the General Call has no enabling powers? On the basis of proof texts talking about how God was temporarily judicially blinding/deafening Israel from that call so as to accomplish the crucifixion and the ingrafting of the Gentiles. (John 12:39-41, Mark 4, Matt. 13, Rom 11, Acts 28:21-28, etc)
Are you really trying to understand my position or simply seeking a way to continue arguing this kind of absolute nonsense? You are assuming that God has transferred some kind of inherent power to the gospel as an isolated entity from God Himself. Paul in 2 Cor. 4:6-7 explicitly denies that instrumental means have any power to perform the internal work of salvation but that is the direct work of God IN THE HEART as it was a direct work of God WITHOUT INSTRUMENTAL MEANS in creating light out of darkness in Genesis 1:3. He explicitly denies the GOSPEL MINISTER = one preaching the gospel, has this power but it belongs to God alone - 2 Cor. 4:7. He explicitly denies the gospel came "in word only" to the elect AT THE POINT of their salvation but it came "in power and in the Holy Ghost and in much assurance" - 1 Thes. 1;4-5
You are assuming that every time the gospel is preached it is empowered by the Spirit. Every time it is preached it is truth but truth without the Spirit empowering it INSIDE OF THE HEART accomplishes nothing or don't you pray when you share the gospel the Holy Spirit will save that person? Perhaps you don't pray that the Holy Spirit will save that person IF you believe all the power you need is found in opening your own mouth and speaking it! If that is true, then why ask the Holy Spirit to do what you believe the gospel alone already has the power to do?????
You are too intelligent to stoop to this kind of silly questions. Paul answers this question over and over again in Romans 7:15-20. Are you superior than Paul? As a born again child of God that delighted in the law of God after the inward man, he was willing to do God but could not obtain the power IN HIMSELF to overpower the law of indwelling sin. He cried out for a deliverer (Rom. 7:24) and he confessed that such victory only occurred as he died to himself and yeilded to the Spirit of God (Rom. 8:9-13). Are you more powerful than Paul?
No more power than ANY TRUTH found written ANY WHERE upon ANYTHING does.
Genesis 1:3 as interpreted in connection with salvation by Paul in 2 Cor. 4:6 is my response. NO INSTRUMENTAL MEANS can be found in Genesis 1:3 and NO INSTRUMENTAL MEANS can work "in the heart" in 2 Cor. 4:6.
Your issue is with the very truth of God's Word and you prove my point that TRUTH without God's power will not change your mind at all.
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
And you are assuming that God's inspired truth hasn't enough power for those who hear it clearly proclaimed to even understand it. Which is worse?
IF you wrote a book and all the critics were saying, "No one can understand it unless the author personally calls them up and explains it to them," that wouldn't be a compliment. Your assumptions about God's inspired truth are not a compliment, they are a put down. You are demeaning God's chosen means to draw all men to himself by suggesting they are not able to do what they were sent to do...to enable all to come.
I never said the power was in my mouth or in speaking. I said the TRUTH is powerful. God's inspired TRUTH, HIS WORD, the 'very words from his mouth' given to us to spread throughout the world have enough power for people to understand and respond...thus they are "without excuse" and "response-able."
I pray just as you do, that God's word will not return void but will accomplish the purpose for which it was sent.
I'm not sure how that answers my question. Just answer the question. The last time you sinned, could you have resisted that temptation or not? Did Christ give you what you needed to bare it? Was it because God failed to give you what you needed, or because you freely chose to rebel? You just said Paul yielded to the Spirit, so does that mean that the last time you sinned that you failed to yield but that you could have? Please explain.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
The very fact that the debate between Arminians and Calvinists regarding salvation has been ongoing for centuries proves your assertion wrong.
If the TRUTH of God has ‘enough power for people to understand and respond’, how do you explain the perpetual conflicting viewpoints in these two diametrically opposed camps?
Both of these Christ-professing groups read and hear the same inspired Words.
Surely the powerful truth of God’s Word should have manifested itself to both groups by now, thereby ending the division.
Arminians would have us believe the ultimate power to ‘understand and respond’ correctly to the truth of God’s Word resides in themselves.
Calvinists insist the power to understand and respond correctly to the truth of God’s Word resides not in themselves, but in the omnipotent power and unfailing saving grace of God to reach the unreachable as well as teach the unteachable by His Spirit.
Calvinists refuse to share the glory with God for their salvation. All good, including saving faith, comes from God alone.
Arminians give all glory to God only after they have contributed the righteous gift of their holy faith, freely given by the good use of their will, a will not under subjection to sin or Satan.
Yet the powerful TRUTH of God’s Word states:
“I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to idols.”
I ask, ‘Which group “understands and responds” appropriately?’
'Which group is "ir-response-able?"'
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I see it just the opposite. IF God effectually calls to us to faith in Christ, why wouldn't he call us to like minded theology?
Our differences prove that God gives us freedom to evaluate and reason in our interpretations and choices about our beliefs.
We have various viewpoints not because God's truth isn't clear enough, but because we are FREE to make poor choices and thus are held response-able for those choices.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Of course you do. This is the very reason we are in diametrically opposed camps.
We have opposite views of man’s fallen nature and the resulting toll of sin.
We have opposite views as to God’s purpose in Election.
We have opposite views as to the means God employs to actually achieve the salvation of men.
We have opposite views as to the purpose and effectiveness of the finished work of Christ.
We have opposite views as to the purpose and efficacy of the work performed by the Holy Spirit.
Either salvation is entirely the work of God who must receive all the glory or man must make some contribution, in which case man rightfully shares the glory for his salvation.
Both propositions cannot be true.
The question is which?
Who is making the response-able biblical choice and who is making the ir-response-able unbiblical poor choice?
This is not a side issue, such as the day and hour of Christ’s return.
Rather it encompasses God’s purpose in creation as well as His ability to execute that purpose exactly as planned to perfection.......despite the opposition of sinful men and wicked devils to thwart that plan.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
1. Since when does a gift have to be effectually given for the giver to get full credit for giving it? Even for those who reject the gracious provision, God should get the credit for that provision.
2. Since when has God NOT been willing to share His Glory with man?
Moses’ face shone so bright with the glory of God that he had to wear a veil [Ex 34:29-34]. God seems to be happy to share his glory with Moses.
John 17:22: The glory that you have given me I have given to them. --- Jesus (God) giving His glory to us.
Rom 8:16-17 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be GLORIFIED with him.
---- Now, I realize there are some OT passage (often taken out of context to contradict these teachings), but those are about God not sharing glory with another 'god' or an idol. He is a jealous God in this sense, but he has never had a problem sharing glory with the crown of his creation, created in His very OWN image.
John 17:22: The glory that you have given me I have given to them. --- Jesus (God) giving His glory to us.
Rom 8:16-17 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be GLORIFIED with him.
---- Now, I realize there are some OT passage (often taken out of context to contradict these teachings), but those are about God not sharing glory with another 'god' or an idol. He is a jealous God in this sense, but he has never had a problem sharing glory with the crown of his creation, created in His very OWN image.
3. Responsibility necessitates 'contribution.' We are held responsible by God because we are RESPONSE-ABLE. To suggest otherwise violates the very meaning of the word.
Agreed. The question is do you see God more as one who has to play both sides of the Chess board to ensure victory, OR do you see Him as such a masterful Chess player that regardless of what free choices his opponents make He is able to work it out to ensure his victory?
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