Response-able??

[Protestant]

I agree, but we don't consider enabling one to freely respond a failure, while you do.

In order to enable men to freely respond positively to the truth in Christ, the Lord would have to eliminate man’s inherent sin nature, his spiritual deadness, as well as the dominion of Satan with his horde of demons -- all of which are in direct opposition to that which is holy eternal truth.

However, nowhere in Scripture is it said that all those impediments have been universally eliminated so that all men are now enabled to freely respond positively to the truth in Christ.

Conclusion: Without the irresistible, supernatural, gracious intervention of the Lord via the new birth, men will remain dead in their sins and trespasses, willfully serving Satan, their Lord and Master.

 

[Protestant]

We consider freedom to follow a necessity of true love.

Scripture considers man a willing slave both to sin and Satan unless the Lord sets him free. (John 8:36 and Romans 6)

Those whom He sets free are those same ones for whom He died.

Those for whom He died are the same ones the Holy Spirit regenerates.

And those whom the Holy Spirit regenerates are the same ones given to Christ by the Father’s election/free-will choice.

Those whom Christ sets free ‘freely’ and willingly fall in love with Him.

Skandelon, since you consider ‘freedom of choice’ a necessity in order to guarantee ‘true love’, why not allow that same consideration a necessity on the part of the Lord?

The obstacle over which Arminians and Pelagians stumble is the biblical truth of God’s absolute freedom and independence.

Included in God's freedom is the freedom to choose whom He will love.

God freely chose to love Jacob over Esau.

Those whom He loves He shows mercy.

Those to whom He shows mercy He saves to the uttermost.

Unlike a man who loves his wife due to her many wonderful attributes, God’s love has nothing to do with hate-filled, sinful man’s ‘wonderful attributes.'

This why election to salvation is by grace alone.

It is not caused by anything good within man, or by anything good done by man….including believing the Gospel.

It's cause is the will of God.

No greater or other cause exists.

 

[Protestant]

Anyone can create a robot who "loves" by programming, but clearly God doesn't do that.

The ‘robot’ analogy is classic Arminianism based on perversions of scriptural truth.

The Bible knows nothing of robots, but does know much about slaves.

Scripture teaches that Christians were once slaves to sin and Satan, but are now slaves of righteousness and God. (Romans 6)

Jesus is not the hard, cruel taskmaster as is Satan.

Rather, His yoke is easy and His burden light.

Christians are willing slaves, obedient to the will of their Master, Jesus.

Robots rust.

Christians trust.

 

[Protestant]

Why else would he say that the stones would cry out in worship if we don't? It would appear that Calvinist think we are no more than stones given that they would be controlled by the same irresistible force.

Scripture teaches that our hearts are as stone, but praise be to God, He alone has the power to perform heart transplants:

“A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”​

This work of God is nothing less than the sovereign, gracious new birth by the Spirit, without which no man can walk in holiness nor see or enter the Kingdom of God.

 

[preacher4truth]

Scripture considers man a willing slave both to sin and Satan unless the Lord sets him free. (John 8:36 and Romans 6)

Those whom He sets free are those same ones for whom He died.

Those for whom He died are the same ones the Holy Spirit regenerates.

And those whom the Holy Spirit regenerates are the same ones given to Christ by the Father’s election/free-will choice.

Those whom Christ sets free ‘freely’ and willingly fall in love with Him.

Skandelon, since you consider ‘freedom of choice’ a necessity in order to guarantee ‘true love’, why not allow that same consideration a necessity on the part of the Lord?

The obstacle over which Arminians and Pelagians stumble is the biblical truth of God’s absolute freedom and independence.

Included in God's freedom is the freedom to choose whom He will love.

God freely chose to love Jacob over Esau.

Those whom He loves He shows mercy.

Those to whom He shows mercy He saves to the uttermost.

Unlike a man who loves his wife due to her many wonderful attributes, God’s love has nothing to do with hate-filled, sinful man’s ‘wonderful attributes.'

This why election to salvation is by grace alone.

It is not caused by anything good within man, or by anything good done by man….including believing the Gospel.

It's cause is the will of God.

No greater or other cause exists.

skan has made the definition of true love subjective and authoritative only to his own finite mind (and other subjective sources) thus the springing forth of error.

 

[Protestant]

1. That ignores the MANY other root definitions of the word RESPONSE-ABLE (amazing how one can ignore the two obvious roots of that word).

I knew that presenting authoritative definitions of the root meaning of ‘responsible’ and then comparing them to Scripture would disturb you.

Nowhere does Scripture agree with your definition as ‘response-able.’

However, Humanists and New Agers agree with your definition.

 

[Protestant]

....what is an answer except a RESPONSE?

The context is important to determine the response.

Adam’s response to the Lord’s command: Disobedience.

Israel’s response to the Lord Jesus: Kill Him.

The unregenerate response to the Gospel: No thank you, maybe later.

Another unregenerate response to the Gospel: If Jesus can give me all those earthly blessings then He is the One for me.

The regenerate response to the Gospel: Yes, thank you, Lord!

The resurrection response of those who died in their sins: Jesus is Lord.

 

[Protestant]

And what is the point of having the man answer to God when God is the one doing the answering? What does the man have to answer for?

Man must answer for the sin he willfully, freely committed.

I asked you earlier, ‘When you sinned was it not voluntary on your part?'

Or did you hear a mysterious forceful voice command you to sin?

All men sin freely as they wish…..unless God intervenes.

Salvation is God’s loving and gracious intervention upon a willful sinner whereby He creates a will disposed toward holiness….one which loathes sin in ever increasing degrees.

 

[Protestant]

What does the man have to answer for? Doing what he was created to do? And what answer is the man going to give that God doesn't control in the first place?

God: Why didn't you come when I called you?
Man: Because you decided before the world began not to grant me the ability to come when you called me.
God: Oh, right, never mind...sorry I asked.

There is another scenario, a biblical scenario:

The Lord: Why are you upset?

Reprobate: Because before the world began it was not your will to give me the faith to believe. Now, because of you, I am awaiting the Lake of Fire.

The Lord: But when my Gospel was preached to you, no mention was made that you were among the Reprobate. I, alone, know who are the Elect and who are the Reprobate. In fact, the true way of salvation - which is by grace through faith in Christ - was preached. Was I the cause of your unbelief?

Reprobate: No, you were not.

The Lord: Were you the cause of your unbelief?

Reprobate: Yes, unless I can be excused by saying, ‘The Devil made me do it.’

The Lord: Did you pray and ask me for the gift of faith as the preacher suggested?

Reprobate: No, I did not.

The Lord: Why not?

Reprobate: The circumstances were not quite right. The preacher wasn’t good-looking or a powerful orator like Billy Graham. Also, the music wasn’t uplifting enough. Instead of a high-powered Christian rock band, the church had a little old lady playing ancient hymns on a rickety piano. Besides, I thought I could give my heart to Jesus when I lay dying on my death bed. That way I would be able to enjoy the pleasures of sin right up until the end.

The Lord: What happened to that plan?

Reprobate: I realized too late that I couldn’t conjure up saving faith in that which I didn't like in the first place.

 

[Protestant]

skan has made the definition of true love subjective and authoritative only to his own finite mind (and other subjective sources) thus the springing forth of error.

By the grace of God, it is my prayer that through our efforts, hearts and eyes will be opened to see and believe the 'hard' truths, which for me, were the key to understanding God's revealed Word.

Thanks so much for your valuable input.

 

[Protestant]

When we exit the Bible and enter into conjured examples there is a complexity of unanswered problems to deal with that are purely subjective in character. This is why I don't like entering into speculative philosophy or illustrations.

For example, the fallen nature has a spectrum of responses that will determine the degree of hardening and advancement of hardening. For example, a person confronted with light of nature can simply choose to shelf it instead of choosing to struggle with it. There are various types of light - natural light, light of conscience, light of scripture, light of circumstances such as witnessing by others that he can either simply ignore, shelf, confront, struggle with, actively pursue intellectually, etc.

However, when God determines to force the depraved nature to confront the light due to divinely arrranged circumstances then the progress will quicken and be more explosive as in the case of the incarnation of light in the midst of Israel.

Your illustration opens a can that requires too much speculation and which has no possible way of concluding what you are attempting to draw conclusions from.

This is why doctrine is based upon precepts rather than illustrations, parables, spiritualizations, etc.

IMHO, those who use non-biblical illustrations to allegedly 'prove' their point do so because they cannot countenance the numerous biblical illustrations which refute their theology.

BTW, I am very grateful the 'powers that be' have granted you a 'stay of execution.' Your contributions to the cause are immensely valuable.

 

[webdog]

IMHO, those who use non-biblical illustrations to allegedly 'prove' their point do so because they cannot countenance the numerous biblical illustrations which refute their theology.

BTW, I am very grateful the 'powers that be' have granted you a 'stay of execution.' Your contributions to the cause are immensely valuable.

Didn't Jesus use non biblical parables?

 

[webdog]

In order to enable men to freely respond positively to the truth in Christ, the Lord would have to eliminate man’s inherent sin nature, his spiritual deadness, as well as the dominion of Satan with his horde of demons -- all of which are in direct opposition to that which is holy eternal truth.

However, nowhere in Scripture is it said that all those impediments have been universally eliminated so that all men are now enabled to freely respond positively to the truth in Christ.

Conclusion: Without the irresistible, supernatural, gracious intervention of the Lord via the new birth, men will remain dead in their sins and trespasses, willfully serving Satan, their Lord and Master.

That sounds like an awfully weak God. Man's condition trumps His desire? You are saying God MUST follow these certain linear steps?

 

[Winman]

There is another scenario, an unbiblical scenario:

The Lord: Why are you upset?

Reprobate: Because before the world began it was your will to curse all men including myself with the inability to believe.

The Lord: But when my Gospel was preached to you, no mention was made that you were among the Reprobate. I, alone, know who are the Elect and who are the Reprobate. In fact, the true way of salvation - which is by grace through faith in Christ - was preached. Was I the cause of your unbelief?

Reprobate: Yes, you were.

The Lord: Were you the cause of your unbelief?

Reprobate: No, you determined my father Adam would fall, and that I and would be cursed with the inability to believe.

The Lord: Did you pray and ask me for the gift of faith as the preacher suggested?

Reprobate: I couldn't.

The Lord: Why not?

Reprobate: The circumstances were not right. You cursed me to be born with a nature that is incapable of desiring or believing on you. Even when I thought I wanted to believe on you, you cursed me with a nature that made excuse, such as I would wait till I was dying on my deathbed, but I would die before I could repent.

The Lord: What happened to that plan?

Reprobate: It happened just as you decreed, Lord.

 

[Protestant]

Why couldn't these Jewish leaders see that Jesus was the Christ?

They could not see for the same reason you and I would not have seen had we been part of the religious elite at that time.

They had no need for a Savior.

They were their own saviors, as are many today.

They enjoyed playing ‘church, as do many today.

They loved the honor given them by men, as do many today.

They loved the ‘world’ of religion, as do many today.

They loved the ‘God’ of their vain imaginations, as do many today.

They willfully and freely hated the true God, as do many today.

They were still in their sinful flesh, as are many professing Christians today.

 

[Protestant]

Was it because they were born Totally Depraved and thus by nature unable to see, hear, understand and turn to God for healing? ORRRRRR

"For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them." John 12:39​

What? Nothing about an inborn nature?

Please understand that not all doctrines are summed up in one Scripture.

The doctrine of man’s sin nature and the resulting negative effects of it are taught throughout the Bible in various passages, all of which have been quoted in this forum, I am sure.

The Scripture in question refers to an extraordinary unbelief despite supernatural signs and wonders which should have at least caused a ‘reasonable person’ to reassess one’s negative view of Christ.

But alas, sin does not enable right, rational thinking.

Furthermore, the Lord has declared His right to harden – increase unbelief --- despite their viewing Jesus’ extraordinary miracles.

“Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.”​

Consider the raising of Lazarus.

This mighty miracle, which should have proved to reasonable men that Jesus is God, caused the Pharisees to plot Jesus’ death.

And let’s not forget their desire to also kill Lazarus.

Such hardening is the certainty of eternal damnation.

Such hardening is the willful judicial act of God as Judge.

By it, God has done no wrong.

Please understand that the Lord did not harden those who were sinless.

He does not turn a saint into a sinner.

Rather, He is in the business of turning sinners into saints.

In the future I will be posting a treatise called: “The Equal Ultimacy of Election and Reprobation.”

I’m sure you will have much to say about it.

 

[Protestant]

Didn't Jesus use non biblical parables?

bib·li·cal also Bib·li·cal (b b l -k l). adj. 1. Of, relating to, or contained in the Bible.

That which is contained in the Bible is biblical.

The biblical parables were of divine origin, and are to be trusted.

The non-biblical illustrations are not of divine origin, and are frequently in error.

 

[Protestant]

That sounds like an awfully weak God. Man's condition trumps His desire?

Arminianism teaches God 'foresees' man's acceptance of Jesus and thus, based on what man has done, elects him to salvation.

We believe that man's acceptance of Jesus is the result or effect of God's election, not the cause.

Therefore, since all men are born with the same sinful condition, the reason why some believe is due to the mercy and compassion of a loving God. The reason why others do not believe is because God has not willed to give them grace which they do not deserve. No injustice is done because the fault of their unbelief lies in them, not in God.

You are saying God MUST follow these certain linear steps?

Jesus is quite adamant that a man MUST -- with no exceptions -- be born from above before that man can please God and enter into communion with Him.

 

[webdog]

Arminianism teaches God 'foresees' man's acceptance of Jesus and thus, based on what man has done, elects him to salvation.

We believe that man's acceptance of Jesus is the result or effect of God's eleoction, not the cause.

Therefore, since all men are born with the same sinful condition, the reason why some believe is due to the mercy and compassion of a loving God. The reason why others do not believe is because God has not willed to give them grace which they do not deserve. No injustice is done because the fault of their unbelief lies in them, not in God.



Jesus is quite adamant that a man MUST -- with no exceptions -- be born from above before that man can please God and enter into communion with Him.

You didn't answer either question.

 

[Protestant]

The Lord: Why are you upset?

Reprobate: Because before the world began it was your will to curse all men including myself with the inability to believe.

The Lord: But when my Gospel was preached to you, no mention was made that you were among the Reprobate. I, alone, know who are the Elect and who are the Reprobate. In fact, the true way of salvation - which is by grace through faith in Christ - was preached. Was I the cause of your unbelief?

Reprobate: Yes, you were.

The Lord: Were you the cause of your unbelief?

Reprobate: No, you determined my father Adam would fall, and that I and would be cursed with the inability to believe.

The Lord: Did you pray and ask me for the gift of faith as the preacher suggested?

Reprobate: I couldn't.

The Lord: Why not?

Reprobate: The circumstances were not right. You cursed me to be born with a nature that is incapable of desiring or believing on you. Even when I thought I wanted to believe on you, you cursed me with a nature that made excuse, such as I would wait till I was dying on my deathbed, but I would die before I could repent.

The Lord: What happened to that plan?

Reprobate: It happened just as you decreed, Lord.

For a moment there I thought you were ignoring me.

Good to see you are alive and kicking.:thumbs:

Perhaps one day you will get tired of kicking against the goads..........