Response to the Right Reverend H. Graham & His Followers

[37818]

Notice how clear Jesus is here. "This IS My body" and "This IS My blood", there is no beating abound the bush of what Jesus means. Your interpretation of the Last Supper discourse is terribly in error.

Jesus did not say, "This my body" but the Greek verb "to be" is used to indicate metaphor, as in 1 John 1:5, "God is light" or as in 1 John 4:8 "God is love." Light is not God, and love is not God. In the same why that bread and cup was not Jesus' body and blood. Jesus in His body and blood was holding it.

 

[Adonia]

You are talking to a former Catholic.

"The total conversion of the substance of bread is expressed clearly in the words of Institution: "This is my body"."

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist

Former Catholics almost always take the extreme view against what they formally believed, so I really wouldn't be bragging about it. But hey, you have the free will to believe this new fangled idea about the Eucharist that didn't come about for some 1500 plus years after the Christian Church began. This concept is even at odds with what the original protestors like Martin Luther believed about it.

 

[Adonia]

Jesus did not say, "This my body" but the Greek verb "to be" is used to indicate metaphor, as in 1 John 1:5, "God is light" or as in 1 John 4:8 "God is love." Light is not God, and love is not God. In the same why that bread and cup was not Jesus' body and blood. Jesus in His body and blood was holding it.

I just quoted verbatim the particular Scripture for you and you say Jesus didn't say it? Good grief! You know, there are other scriptural passages that report the exact same words also.

I guess you probably also disregard the fact that a virgin bore Him into the world too, right my friend? I'd just love to hear your take on that biblical pronouncement.

 

[HankD]

Everyone knows you are a former Catholic, Hank. We really don't need a constant reminder. I doubt you want me to constantly remind you that I was a Baptist before I found the truth, do you?

Yes of course you may Walter.

AOBTW I am (rather was) what is known as a "cradle" Catholic.

There are new folks coming onto the BB all the time and I want everyone to know how and from what He rescued my soul.
Also I am stubborn so, don't expect any changes.

 

[HankD]

Former Catholics almost always take the extreme view against what they formally believed, so I really wouldn't be bragging about it. But hey, you have the free will to believe this new fangled idea about the Eucharist that didn't come about for some 1500 plus years after the Christian Church began. This concept is even at odds with what the original protestors like Martin Luther believed about it.

I will admit that the Latin error of the "Real Presence" goes WAY back in church history.

I also have a belief in the real presence of the Lord

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[Adonia]

Look, if folks want to believe a priest can turn a piece of bread into the body of Christ - let them.

I was wrong when I stated that it was the Holy Spirit that effected the change of the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus as you are in error with your statement from above.

According to the Summa from St. Thomas Aquinas who wrote: "On the contrary, Ambrose says (De Sacram. iv): "The consecration is accomplished by the words and expressions of the Lord Jesus. Because, by all the other words spoken, praise is rendered to God, prayer is put up for the people, for kings, and others; but when the time comes for perfecting the sacrament, the priest uses no longer his own words, but the words of Christ. Therefore, it is Christ's words that perfect this sacrament."

So we see that it is Christs own words that cause this to happen.

The Holy Spirit however is indeed involved as I suspected. The Second Vatican Council rightly proclaimed that: . "For the most holy Eucharist contains the Church's entire spiritual wealth: Christ himself, our passover and living bread. Through his own flesh, now made living and life-giving by the Holy Spirit, he offers life to men .2 Consequently the gaze of the Church is constantly turned to her Lord, present in the Sacrament of the Altar, in which she discovers the full manifestation of his boundless love as a matter of course".

 

[HankD]

I was wrong when I stated that it was the Holy Spirit that effected the change of the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus as you are in error with your statement from above.

According to the Summa from St. Thomas Aquinas who wrote: "On the contrary, Ambrose says (De Sacram. iv): "The consecration is accomplished by the words and expressions of the Lord Jesus. Because, by all the other words spoken, praise is rendered to God, prayer is put up for the people, for kings, and others; but when the time comes for perfecting the sacrament, the priest uses no longer his own words, but the words of Christ. Therefore, it is Christ's words that perfect this sacrament."

So we see that it is Christs own words that cause this to happen.

The Holy Spirit however is indeed involved as I suspected. The Second Vatican Council rightly proclaimed that: . "For the most holy Eucharist contains the Church's entire spiritual wealth: Christ himself, our passover and living bread. Through his own flesh, now made living and life-giving by the Holy Spirit, he offers life to men .2 Consequently the gaze of the Church is constantly turned to her Lord, present in the Sacrament of the Altar, in which she discovers the full manifestation of his boundless love as a matter of course".

OK you wriggled your way out of that one

 

[Adonia]

OK you wriggled your way out of that one

I should be a politician! LOL

 

[37818]

I just quoted verbatim the particular Scripture for you and you say Jesus didn't say it? Good grief! You know, there are other scriptural passages that report the exact same words also.

I guess you probably also disregard the fact that a virgin bore Him into the world too, right my friend? I'd just love to hear your take on that biblical pronouncement.

You do not understand.
The text does not say, Jesus said "This my body," rather the metaphor translated, "This is my body."
The Greek, does not read, "τουτο το σωμα μου," but "τουτο εστι το σωμα μου." The bread is not the body. Had the Greek read, "τουτο το σωμα μου," then Jesus would have indeed said it was His body.
Compare with "God is love," metaphor, "θεος αγαπη εστιν." Love is not God.

 

[HankD]

You do not understand.
The text does not say, Jesus said "This my body," rather the metaphor translated, "This is my body."
The Greek, does not read, "τουτο το σωμα μου," but "τουτο εστι το σωμα μου." The bread is not the body. Had the Greek read, "τουτο το σωμα μου," then Jesus would have indeed said it was His body.
Compare with "God is love," metaphor, "θεος αγαπη εστιν." Love is not God.

WHAT!?

 

[Adonia]

You do not understand.

I don't understand? I understand this - for over 1500 years the Church taught this reality and virtually every Christian alive believed and accepted this teaching for all that time. Suddenly one man (Zwingli) from a minor Christian sect rose up and said this was not so and you now believe him? Sorry, I am not buying such a thing from him then or you now.

This teaching is not a metaphor but the real deal. He (Jesus) said what he meant and meant what he said, and the newfangled interpretation that you have come up with does not change that.

 

[HankD]

Again, one more time the bread and wine are pictures of the body and blood of Christ.

When I take a picture of my mother out of my wallet and say - this is my mother - everyone knows it is a paper and ink representation of my mother.

 

[Adonia]

Again, one more time the bread and wine are pictures of the body and blood of Christ.

Only in your opinion.

When I take a picture of my mother out of my wallet and say - this is my mother - everyone knows it is a paper and ink representation of my mother.

With all due respect to the good lady, your mother is/was not the Savior. Her picture is just as you say, a paper and ink representation of her - no more, no less.

 

[Adonia]

WHAT!?

"God is love" is just a metaphor? Silly me, I thought this was an established reality. How do you feel about this?

 

[HankD]

Only in your opinion.


With all due respect to the good lady, your mother is/was not the Savior. Her picture is just as you say, a paper and ink representation of her - no more, no less.

There were no cameras of course in Jesus day.

This is what I believe He meant to teach that the bread and wine were pictures of His body and blood.

NOT His actual body and blood.

 

[HankD]

"God is love" is just a metaphor? Silly me, I thought this was an established reality. How do you feel about this?

Grammar and syntax alone do not define a statement - there is also context, culture and nuance to be considered.
Silly me I only had 5 semesters of Greek/Hebrew.

 

[37818]

WHAT!?

I explained why it is metaphor. And if the Greek verb "to be" used for metaphore is not used, it becomes a direct statment in the Greek. Two key examples are 1 John 1:5 and 1 John 4:8. Without that verb 1 John 1:5 would mean that light would be God, and 1 John 4:8 without that verb would mean love is God. Even as John 4:24 "God [is] Spirit." God is actually a Sprirt. That Greek verb is not used there.

So where Jesus said of the bread, "This is my body," and that Greek verb was not there, Jesus would have actually said of the bread, "This my body." That the bread was actually His body. Understand?

 

[37818]

Grammar and syntax alone do not define a statement - there is also context, culture and nuance to be considered.
Silly me I only had 5 semesters of Greek/Hebrew.

Well check the Greek usage of that verb meaning "to be" for yourself. Does te absence of that verb change the meaning or not?

 

[37818]

I don't understand? I understand this - for over 1500 years the Church taught this reality and virtually every Christian alive believed and accepted this teaching for all that time. Suddenly one man (Zwingli) from a minor Christian sect rose up and said this was not so and you now believe him? Sorry, I am not buying such a thing from him then or you now.

This teaching is not a metaphor but the real deal. He (Jesus) said what he meant and meant what he said, and the newfangled interpretation that you have come up with does not change that.

Fine. You ingnore my argument.

Here is the deal with me.
I became a Christian for one reason. At the time it was my reason. The notion that I could know for sure when I would die I would go to Heaven. Got that.

I have had since 1962 to vet this notion out.

Now do you know for sure that when you die that you will be in the Heavenly presence of our Lord? Only those whose names remain in the book of life will be saved in the judgement (Revelation 20:15).

Now if not, what good is your faith? Remeber what Jesus warned (Matthew 7:21-23).

 

[HankD]

Well check the Greek usage of that verb meaning "to be" for yourself. Does the absence of that verb change the meaning or not?

It "is" His body in the same sense as the picture of my mother "is" my mother.

The "Eucharist" is not actually the body of the Lord but a picture.

The point is that The BELIEF in the sacrifice of His body and blood must become the food of our spirit to sustain us with eternal life. it is not the food of the flesh.

John 6:63 It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.