Results matter

[Luke2427]

Good discussion topic and I find agreement here but, I have a hard time understanding how to motivate determinists or be motivated as a determinist if not to demonstrate my perseverence, namely via 'faithfulness'. What actually happens is what was meant to be afterall, I can only be responsible for what I can contro... Wait... oh crud... This is so demotivating... How can I maintain intelectual integrity as a determinist that believes the the Bible? Should I not wait for something to happen to me?

I think this is a subject for another thread. I'll only say that true Calvinism, which you figure denotes determinism, has never been anything but a boon to missions. William Carey, the father of modern missions, was a Calvinist, for example.

Some of the people in this world today who are the most mission minded are thoroughgoing Calvinists. David Platt is an example of this.

True Calvinism, I think, is the best motivator in the world for the fulfillment of the Great Commission- it is driven by a passion for God's glory.

But let's not derail this thread. I'll debate that with you if you wish on another thread.

Here, let's discuss whether or not we should be driven by a desire to actually expand the Kingdom or should we simply not care about results.

 

[Luke2427]

A few questions:
If it is God who give the increase (1 Corinthians 3:6-7), how do we have control over the results?

He gives the increase only after Paul has planted and Apollos has watered.

So we sow like crazy and we water like crazy.

What are the results that we ought to be having? Is it entirely numerical?

Of course not. But numbers matter. They ought not be haphazardly dismissed or snuffed at.

We want numbers with substance. I think one's substance is not very substantial though if he does not care about numbers at all.

Combining churches sounds good, but many churches that ought and need to be closed are filled with people who resist any change at all. Are they going to move to a church that is probably very different than the one they love or will they go to another "non-productive" church?

In a perfect world- which we should be pursuing, right?

I am just wondering about the phrase "baptize the nations"? Where is that one of the results we ought to be working towards? Baptizing new believers, yes, but nations?

It is the essence of the Great Commission. "Go and make disciples OF THE NATIONS baptizing them..."

What about missionaries in Muslim countries where church gorwth is measured in 1's and 2's over decades? Are they going to earn God's frightening frown also?

This question indicates to me that you did not read the op thoroughly.

And given your particular doctrinal beliefs, what if no one in that area is predestined to eternal life?

Again, I commend you to the op.

 

[Luke2427]

Good questions, thanks for asking. 12strings, I am putting myself in the hypothetical position. EWF, I was referring to holding to Hard Theological Determinism in which free will does not exist, and God has absolute control over a person's actions.

I don't want to derail this thread any more than it may be from Luke's perspective since he is the original poster. I just wanted to let him know that, if I were hypothetically a partner in the immediate ministry in which he is involved, I would have a perspective that might differ from his due in part to my view of reality. If he wanted to include people like me this might need to be addressed. I don't think that most people, rather just a few people, let this kind of thing bother them. It seems to me that regardless of what a person believes about reality (be it hard theological determinism, EDF, open theism, simple foreknowledge, molinism, arminianism, and other?) one can enter into a relationship of reciprocity, love and faith. That God doesn't let this come between his relationship with them… he accommodates our weaknesses and immaturity and enters into relationship with us. Just because I don't see how a hard theological determinist can appreciate such a relationship doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. I'm not sure how one would deal with people for whom such issues are so important… maybe the best way would be to emphasize tolerance, soul liberty and love for each other and God.

Maybe Luke would prefer this to be addressed in another thread though... I suspect he would like to discuss other aspects related to his OP.

Very gracious and balanced post. I commend you.

 

[Luke2427]

I'm not saying there will not be seasons when fruit seems to be lacking, and I don't know what results look like specifically...Jonathan Edwards preached faithfully for 20 years in his church before the Great Awakening.

What I am saying is this: Who among us, especially those of us in church leadership positions, would say that we are doing EVERYTHING God has called us to do for the purpose of making disciples and spreading the Gospel? If we are in a season of seeming fruitlessness, I think there are 2 responses that must both characterize our analysis:

1. Continue trusting that God's word will not return void, and that God's timing is not our timing, and that God does indeed bring the fruit.

2. But also examining our own motives and efforts for areas of sin or faithlessness, or laziness, or lack of love for the lost, or preoccupation with the pleasures of the world, or even personal pride in the fact that we are faithfully holding the line even when no fruit is visible. Any of these could be something that God wants us to examine and make changes...which MIGHT lead to more fruitfulness, should God be so pleased.

I offer up a thousand amens to this thoughtful post.

 

[Luke2427]

Setting aside the Calvinist God ordains whatsoever comes to pass mindset, lets look at the need to be wise stewards bringing in a return from the blessings bestowed by God. When we invest in a ministry, lets say the youth program at our church, we need for the ministry staff to report back on the status of the ministry. Ditto for children's ministry and adult ministry.

I remember looking at the attendance graph for the traditional service compared to the contemporary service. We were growing and needed to having another contemporary service, but the traditional service was flat-lining.

Bottom line, lots of folks use biblical sounding buss words, to mask ineffective stewardship. Programs without feedback loops to channel resources into productive ministries are failures to "count the cost". Growth in numbers is not the only metric, but without any metric such as baptisms versus new members from other churches, we might become more of fad driven churches rather than Christ driven churches.

I agree.
______________________

 

[Luke2427]

I seriously doubt there are enough of those to count on your two hands. Much ado about nothing.

You are invincibly, unspeakably, immeasurably wrong on this.

I dare say that MOST, the VAST majority of Christians care very little about pushing for results and have adopted the excuse- "I just have to be personally faithful and not worry about results because they are all up to God."

 

[convicted1]

The things that we do at my home church, Little Martha, is that whatever we do, whether it be singing old songs of Zion, praying for His will to be done, preaching the gospel, etc. is that God gets the glory for any and all results. We, as preachers, can preach God's unadulterated word, and trust that it will accomplish where it pleases Him to send it. It takes a "God tilled" heart to receive the engrafted word. If God has "tilled" the ground, you better believe that a Seed will be planted, and you better expect a harvest. Too many times we sow seed in unprepared ground, and have the audacity to wonder why we haven't seen any results. All we can do is represent Christ the best we know how, witness to the lost, visit those who are in need, feed those who are hungry, etc. IOW, we work by watering and planting the Seed(s), and that which is sown in "rich soil"(God tilled heart), God will bring forth a harvest.

 

[Luke2427]

OK Rick....how do you propose to grow?

Fist of all we need to come to an agreement on whether or not we should even be seeking to grow.

My "how" is meaningless to you unless you really believe in aggressively pursuing growth.

It would be like me being against the space program altogether and demanding of a NASA scientist to know how we can get back into space.

His explanation is meaningless to me because I don't want us to go back into space- I don't care if we can or can't.

So my question to you is, do you think we ought to be trying to grow or is it that you couldn't care less about trying to grow?

 

[Luke2427]

The things that we do at my home church, Little Martha, is that whatever we do, whether it be singing old songs of Zion, praying for His will to be done, preaching the gospel, etc. is that God gets the glory for any and all results. We, as preachers, can preach God's unadulterated word, and trust that it will accomplish where it pleases Him to send it. It takes a "God tilled" heart to receive the engrafted word. If God has "tilled" the ground, you better believe that a Seed will be planted, and you better expect a harvest. Too many times we sow seed in unprepared ground, and have the audacity to wonder why we haven't seen any results. All we can do is represent Christ the best we know how, witness to the lost, visit those who are in need, feed those who are hungry, etc. IOW, we work by watering and planting the Seed(s), and that which is sown in "rich soil"(God tilled heart), God will bring forth a harvest.

We don't know what God is doing in the hearts of men and we should not be seeking to selectively sow only to hearts we perceive are prepared.

The parable of the sower and the seed shows the sower tossing seed everywhere irregardless of whether the ground appeared prepared or not.

 

[convicted1]

We don't know what God is doing in the hearts of men and we should not be seeking to selectively sow only to hearts we perceive are prepared.

The parable of the sower and the seed shows the sower tossing seed everywhere irregardless of whether the ground appeared prepared or not.

That's what I was saying, you must have misunderstood what I was trying to convey. Sometimes my posts aren't the "clearest", so please forgive me for that. We preach to all, so that God will save some.