Retraction

[Luke2427]

I had a very rigorous debate with Havensdad on tithing recently.

I argued that tithing was not restricted to the ceremonial law alone and that it predated the law and that Jesus affirmed it which means that we should obey it just like we should obey any of the moral laws of God (Don't steal, kill, commit adultery, idolatry, etc...)

I have held to that position for a very long time. It is a hangover from my dispensational arminian days.

I've never been shaken on it because I have always had arguments on it with dispensational guys who were practical antinomians.

But Havensdad argued from a different perspective- and defeated me (or my ideas if you prefer).

Tithing is not for today. It perished with all ceremonial law. I was wrong. Havensdad was right.

This does not mean we are out from under the gun, per say.

Giving is still expected "for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

But the 10% rule is gone.

I yield to my betters on this debate and I appreciate the heat and light of good friction that sharpened this piece of iron.

 

[agedman]

I had a very rigorous debate with Havensdad on tithing recently.

I argued that tithing was not restricted to the ceremonial law alone and that it predated the law and that Jesus affirmed it which means that we should obey it just like we should obey any of the moral laws of God (Don't steal, kill, commit adultery, idolatry, etc...)

I have held to that position for a very long time. It is a hangover from my dispensational arminian days.

I've never been shaken on it because I have always had arguments on it with dispensational guys who were practical antinomians.

But Havensdad argued from a different perspective- and defeated me (or my ideas if you prefer).

Tithing is not for today. It perished with all ceremonial law. I was wrong. Havensdad was right.

This does not mean we are out from under the gun, per say.

Giving is still expected "for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

But the 10% rule is gone.

I yield to my betters on this debate and I appreciate the heat and light of good friction that sharpened this piece of iron.

Welcome to the world of the free.

Good debate can lead to edification.

Give, as was given to you, the full measure.

God isn't consumed with money, but he desires the full heart, the might of the body, the intellect of the head, the full dedication of you.

Surely, where the heart is, there the treasure will also be found.

:godisgood:

 

[just-want-peace]

When you realize that it all belongs to Him anyway, it's much easier to let go of.
When I thought I was "giving" God my tithe, I was fairly proud of my obedience; now it is a joy to give !!!

 

[Yeshua1]

I had a very rigorous debate with Havensdad on tithing recently.

I argued that tithing was not restricted to the ceremonial law alone and that it predated the law and that Jesus affirmed it which means that we should obey it just like we should obey any of the moral laws of God (Don't steal, kill, commit adultery, idolatry, etc...)

I have held to that position for a very long time. It is a hangover from my dispensational arminian days.

I've never been shaken on it because I have always had arguments on it with dispensational guys who were practical antinomians.

But Havensdad argued from a different perspective- and defeated me (or my ideas if you prefer).

Tithing is not for today. It perished with all ceremonial law. I was wrong. Havensdad was right.

This does not mean we are out from under the gun, per say.

Giving is still expected "for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

But the 10% rule is gone.

I yield to my betters on this debate and I appreciate the heat and light of good friction that sharpened this piece of iron.

I also agree that we have not been placed back under OT Tithing system, but if someone is persuaded by the Bible, as you were, that westill are under that, wouldn't that person be blesse of God to do as he sees fit to do? Wouldn't the Lord still honor such a person, as giving with right motivation/attitude?

 

[Judith]

I had a very rigorous debate with Havensdad on tithing recently.

I argued that tithing was not restricted to the ceremonial law alone and that it predated the law and that Jesus affirmed it which means that we should obey it just like we should obey any of the moral laws of God (Don't steal, kill, commit adultery, idolatry, etc...)

I have held to that position for a very long time. It is a hangover from my dispensational arminian days.

I've never been shaken on it because I have always had arguments on it with dispensational guys who were practical antinomians.

But Havensdad argued from a different perspective- and defeated me (or my ideas if you prefer).

Tithing is not for today. It perished with all ceremonial law. I was wrong. Havensdad was right.

This does not mean we are out from under the gun, per say.

Giving is still expected "for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

But the 10% rule is gone.

I yield to my betters on this debate and I appreciate the heat and light of good friction that sharpened this piece of iron.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[clark thompson]

It is no longer tithing but giving.

 

[Yeshua1]

It is no longer tithing but giving.

As long as somone holding to the tithe though still gives out of joy and thanksgiving to the Lord, is it really that bad a thing?

 

[HankD]

As long as somone holding to the tithe though still gives out of joy and thanksgiving to the Lord, is it really that bad a thing?

No, I don't think so, the guiding principles of giving are:

2 Corinthians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth acheerful giver.​

While it does not require a tithe neither does it forbid it as long as the stated principles are guiding the individual.​

the preceding verse 6 is important as well - look it up.​

HankD​

 

[Tom Butler]

I'm seeking information here.

For those of you who used to tithe, but no longer believe it's mandated for NT believers, do you now give
More than 10%
Less than 10%
About the same
It varies

If it varies, what principle guides you as to the amount, if any?

If you hold that tithing is not a NT principle, please exegete Luke 11:42, which Jesus is excoriating the Pharisees. He noted that they were so meticulous, that they tithed even the mint and rue and every herb, while neglecting justice and the love of God. Jesus said "these you ought to have done, without neglecting others." Didn't Jesus endorse tithing here?

I guess what I'm looking for here is how one determines how much to give.

I understand the argument that giving should be out of love and not of obligation. I just want to know how much I should give, and how do I arrive at that figure?

 

[saturneptune]

The amount is as lead by the Holy Spirit, and no doubt, it will result in more giving with a better attitude than the OT guilt trip. Of the few sermons I have heard on giving, I equated them with me going to my boss and asking for a raise.

 

[JonC]

Personally, I believe that all a Christian has and is belongs to God. We are children of God, bought with a price. What is ours is not our own, so the amount we are to give is all. All we do and have is for the glory of God. But that, of course, is just sentiment. We continue to own things and they continue to own us. We rely on our income not only for our necessities but also for our enjoyment (and I am not saying that there is anything wrong with enjoying what God has provided). But I do suppose that when we put our welfare and pleasures above others that this is a failure to exercise the love of Christ.

IMHO there is not a percent and the adherence of tithing (which is 10%) diminishes the principle of rendering to God what is His. Cheerful giving is also not biblical in and of itself. I can cheerfully give an amount without it being significant in my life to constitute an offering or worship (maybe this is holy tipping ). Here, I believe, is where we find the true heart of the believer - where that person’s treasure lies. Here, also, is where I often fail.

 

[Inspector Javert]

I'm seeking information here.

For those of you who used to tithe, but no longer believe it's mandated for NT believers

I am precisely one such person:

do you now give
More than 10%

Usually...but, I have been blessed enough to do so. However, I often did so as a "tither" too. Many people who believe in the 10% tithe doctrine perceive the 10% as "owed" and that we can "give" above that. I practiced that.

Less than 10%

SOMETIMES.....nothing. But, rarely. It always depends on the financial position at the time. I was out of work for about 8 months during the 2008 crash.....I had essentially nothing to give.

If it varies, what principle guides you as to the amount, if any?

The principal is that God has given so much to us...and therefore it is incumbent upon us to give all we can. We should make sacrifices. We should give till it "hurts".

If you hold that tithing is not a NT principle, please exegete Luke 11:42, which Jesus is excoriating the Pharisees. He noted that they were so meticulous, that they tithed even the mint and rue and every herb, while neglecting justice and the love of God. Jesus said "these you ought to have done, without neglecting others." Didn't Jesus endorse tithing here?

Jesus DID endorse "tithing"...He was speaking to Jews who remained under the ceremonial law of the O.T. Those Pharisees indeed should have "tithed". But, it will be noted that this re-inforces that "tithing" is only of agricultural products and not money....

Note that it was the "mint and cumin"...In other words, they likely had acres upon acres of whatever agricultural staples such as wheat they possessed and no doubt they tithed it....But, the Pharisees were being so meticulous that they were "tithing" off of the wife's herb garden (so to speak.)

Jesus did not come to erase a "jot nor tittle" of the Law until he "fulfilled" it.
He fulfilled the "ceremonial" portion of the law, by being the lamb of God (which tithing is)....he re-inforces the moral aspect which pre-dates even the Mosaic Law.

Apparently, according to Haven and Luke no dispys understand this complicated concept that they alone can grasp, but, that's how it is.

I guess what I'm looking for here is how one determines how much to give.
I understand the argument that giving should be out of love and not of obligation. I just want to know how much I should give, and how do I arrive at that figure?

You purpose in your own heart what you should give. There is no "how much" per se. It's a measure of love and dedication, not a mathematical sum. You give as you have been "prospered", and if you have been "prospered" enough to give much....then you give much.

My M.O. is often to give x-amount...and then await for some particular need or Missionary our Church wants to support and then give a sum concurrent with that need. I might (for instance) give so much regularly, but have plenty saved, and then when the Church wants to purchase a bus for a new "Bus Ministry" (as it were)....drop some sort of serious sum in order to achieve that goal....It varies.

If you have been "prospered" little, then you still give little.....but, you still give till it hurts IMO.
I guess I would say....you determine how right you heart is, and your amount will take care of itself. The "amount" doesn't matter. ONLY the heart does.
On a side note:
I have no problem with someone looking to a 10% figure as a sort of median or baseline either to begin or to achieve.....but it's not an inherently Divine figure.

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm seeking information here.

For those of you who used to tithe, but no longer believe it's mandated for NT believers, do you now give
More than 10%
Less than 10%
About the same
It varies

If it varies, what principle guides you as to the amount, if any?

If you hold that tithing is not a NT principle, please exegete Luke 11:42, which Jesus is excoriating the Pharisees. He noted that they were so meticulous, that they tithed even the mint and rue and every herb, while neglecting justice and the love of God. Jesus said "these you ought to have done, without neglecting others." Didn't Jesus endorse tithing here?

I guess what I'm looking for here is how one determines how much to give.

I understand the argument that giving should be out of love and not of obligation. I just want to know how much I should give, and how do I arrive at that figure?

believe that we in the Body should NOT divide over this issue, as see it under the principle of IF one is persuaded and convicted by the Bible to tithe, they should, but under joy/thanksgiving, IF persuaded no longer under it, same joy.thanksgiving applies!

problem is regardless of the side taken, most Christuians give FAR less than 10%, think average more like 3 %! that is in baptist like circles, liberal churches/others give less than that!

 

[webdog]

I'm seeking information here.

For those of you who used to tithe, but no longer believe it's mandated for NT believers, do you now give
More than 10%
Less than 10%
About the same
It varies

If it varies, what principle guides you as to the amount, if any?

If you hold that tithing is not a NT principle, please exegete Luke 11:42, which Jesus is excoriating the Pharisees. He noted that they were so meticulous, that they tithed even the mint and rue and every herb, while neglecting justice and the love of God. Jesus said "these you ought to have done, without neglecting others." Didn't Jesus endorse tithing here?

I guess what I'm looking for here is how one determines how much to give.

I understand the argument that giving should be out of love and not of obligation. I just want to know how much I should give, and how do I arrive at that figure?

It varies. Each of us should give as we have decided, cheerfully and not under compulsion. This doesn't always mean just money either. Time serving and possessions are also included in giving. We first think its money only, but it would serve the church equally well for someone to serve in meeting needs of the church just as much as giving money.

 

[Yeshua1]

It varies. Each of us should give as we have decided, cheerfully and not under compulsion. This doesn't always mean just money either. Time serving and possessions are also included in giving. We first think its money only, but it would serve the church equally well for someone to serve in meeting needs of the church just as much as giving money.

good point, that we tend to see as just being in money, but the Lord wants to have all of His talents/gifts put to use!

To one who much has been given to, much will be demanded of him though also...

 

[InTheLight]

I'm seeking information here.

For those of you who used to tithe, but no longer believe it's mandated for NT believers, do you now give
More than 10%
Less than 10%
About the same
It varies

If it varies, what principle guides you as to the amount, if any?

If you hold that tithing is not a NT principle, please exegete Luke 11:42, which Jesus is excoriating the Pharisees. He noted that they were so meticulous, that they tithed even the mint and rue and every herb, while neglecting justice and the love of God. Jesus said "these you ought to have done, without neglecting others." Didn't Jesus endorse tithing here?

I guess what I'm looking for here is how one determines how much to give.

I understand the argument that giving should be out of love and not of obligation. I just want to know how much I should give, and how do I arrive at that figure?

I never tithed, as I don't believe in it but I'll still weigh in here. The amount that I give to my local church on a regular basis is about 9.1%. That's just the usual amount that I give on a weekly basis divided by my income. I didn't come up with a guideline, "hey I should give 9.1%" it was more like "I feel I should give "X" amount per week".

I should mention that I have one child in Christian school and that costs $480 a month for tuition and more for extra curricular activities. This school is not affiliated with my church. This amount is a factor in my ability to give to my local church. In years past I had two children at this school and that definitely impacted my ability to give, but I gave the same amount as I do now (wasn't easy).

My wife recently got a rebate check on an auto lease we had. The amount was $486. We both felt led to give it to our missions program at church. We decided to pray about it and ask God how much we should give. I felt we should give $500 and my wife said $400. We ended up giving $400 to the church.

So for us there is no set formula. A number seems to pop into our heads and we give it. Not grudgingly, but happily.

 

[InTheLight]

You purpose in your own heart what you should give. There is no "how much" per se. It's a measure of love and dedication, not a mathematical sum. You give as you have been "prospered", and if you have been "prospered" enough to give much....then you give much.

My M.O. is often to give x-amount...and then await for some particular need or Missionary our Church wants to support and then give a sum concurrent with that need. I might (for instance) give so much regularly, but have plenty saved, and then when the Church wants to purchase a bus for a new "Bus Ministry" (as it were)....drop some sort of serious sum in order to achieve that goal....It varies.

Good post. This is about the same way I handle it.

 

[Allan]

I love it when people choose to step out from under the tithe and begin giving biblically.. which is sacrifically and therefore more than 10%.

Praise God for people who have committed themselves to NT giving.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Since the Bible speaks of the people of Israel to give more than the tithe, which was only for the Temple upkeep and supply, but more like 25% of their income, which included all the other offerings prescribed in the Law, I would think most Christians would gladly be willing to offer a mere 10%. While I agree, there is no New Testament "set piece" for giving, I think 10% is a minimum. Otherwise, where is the sacrifice? That is the purpose, as God told Israel.

Malachi 2, NASB
10 "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this," says the LORD of hosts, "if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows."​

Does that give us a motivation to give 10%, so we can have "the windows of heaven" open and pour out blessings on us? No, of course not! But if we were not to give at least as much as Israel, given we have the fulfillment of the blessings of Christ whereas they knew only of the promise of Messiah, why would the words of God to Israel be preserved in a Christian Bible?

I will not claim tithing is a command for the Christian, but at least a "tithe" -- ten percent of gross income -- is a necessary guideline, or why bother?

 

[webdog]

Since the Bible speaks of the people of Israel to give more than the tithe, which was only for the Temple upkeep and supply, but more like 25% of their income, which included all the other offerings prescribed in the Law, I would think most Christians would gladly be willing to offer a mere 10%. While I agree, there is no New Testament "set piece" for giving, I think 10% is a minimum. Otherwise, where is the sacrifice? That is the purpose, as God told Israel.

Malachi 2, NASB
10 "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this," says the LORD of hosts, "if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows."​

Does that give us a motivation to give 10%, so we can have "the windows of heaven" open and pour out blessings on us? No, of course not! But if we were not to give at least as much as Israel, given we have the fulfillment of the blessings of Christ whereas they knew only of the promise of Messiah, why would the words of God to Israel be preserved in a Christian Bible?

I will not claim tithing is a command for the Christian, but at least a "tithe" -- ten percent of gross income -- is a necessary guideline, or why bother?

Guideline = compulsion. Since the tithe was grain, produce and livestock (not money, the Bible is clear on the distinction when the offer to buy back the tithe is given) we have no guideline as a NT believer.