Returning to the Biblical Bema: The Judgment Seat of Christ

[John of Japan]

2 Cor. 5:10--For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Let me point out here that the word "bad" in this verse is not kakos (κακός), which is moral evil in this context, but phaulos (φαῦλος), which is simply an error or mistake, where we get our word "foul" in baseball. So the Judgment Seat of Christ is not about punishing evil, but Christ simply pointing out where we served with selfish motives ("wood, hay and stubble" (1 Cor. 3:12). So awards will be withheld and given.

Concerning the comparison between this judgment and the Great White Throne, I would think the difference is obvious: one is from a bema, and other from a throne. None of the language of the two judgments is the same. They are two different judgments, one for the saved (bema) and the other for the lost (Great White Throne).

 

[John of Japan]

My point as well. Condemnation and judgment are not the same terms. "We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ", not award ceremony. We need to maintain the right balance here. Keeping this awesome meeting in mind is a key means of our growth in grace. It is not slavish fear, but healthy, godly reverence.

"Not award ceremony"? Funny peculiar, since we will received according to the good we have done. Are "gold, silver, precious stones" (2 Cor. 3:12) then some kind of punishment? And "14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward." So, the Judgment Seat of Christ is definitely a "reward" ceremony, because the Bible says "reward."

 

[asterisktom]

"Not award ceremony"? Funny peculiar, since we will received according to the good we have done. Are "gold, silver, precious stones" (2 Cor. 3:12) then some kind of punishment? And "14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward." So, the Judgment Seat of Christ is definitely a "reward" ceremony, because the Bible says "reward."

You miss my point. I am not denying there is also reward. I am only cautioning against thinking that that is all that it is. As I wrote in the article:

"The Bema is obviously a place of awesome judgment, and not merely an award ceremony. To be sure, there are awards for the righteous, but it is not just that. There are also those among the redeemed who will be saved, yet so as by fire, 1 Cor. 3:15."

The position I am arguing for didn't use to be controversial. For instance, look through the older commentaries before Darby and Scofield slanted this issue, and you will find the same points I raise here. Matthew Henry, for example, 5:10-11 is worth reading.

 

[John of Japan]

You miss my point. I am not denying there is also reward. I am only cautioning against thinking that that is all that it is. As I wrote in the article:

"The Bema is obviously a place of awesome judgment, and not merely an award ceremony. To be sure, there are awards for the righteous, but it is not just that. There are also those among the redeemed who will be saved, yet so as by fire, 1 Cor. 3:15."

I don't want to misrepresent you, so let me ask a couple of things that are unclear to me from what you have posed (no offense intended):

1. Does the bema judgment include lost people?
2. Are there punishments at the bema judgment?
3. Do you believe the Great White Throne Judgment and the Judgment Seat of Christ to be the same judgment?

If you are simply saying that it won't be some happy party, I agree with that. When we see the risen Christ in all His glory, we will be blown away and maybe even knocked down like Daniel was when he saw the preincarnate Christ, and like the apostle John was in Rev. 1.

 

[asterisktom]

I don't want to misrepresent you, so let me ask a couple of things that are unclear to me from what you have posed (no offense intended):

1. Does the bema judgment include lost people?
2. Are there punishments at the bema judgment?
3. Do you believe the Great White Throne Judgment and the Judgment Seat of Christ to be the same judgment?

If you are simply saying that it won't be some happy party, I agree with that. When we see the risen Christ in all His glory, we will be blown away and maybe even knocked down like Daniel was when he saw the preincarnate Christ, and like the apostle John was in Rev. 1.

Thank you for not wanting to misrepresent me. I don't get that courtesy from everyone.
I believe the two judgments are the same, only described under different terms. Additionally, as far as time is concerned, I believe that there are two applications. There was a great judgment already at the time of the Parousia, which I believe occurred in the 1st century. But also there will be essentially the same awesome meeting with God for us individuals at the time of our death.

 

[John of Japan]

Thank you for not wanting to misrepresent me. I don't get that courtesy from everyone.
I believe the two judgments are the same, only described under different terms. Additionally, as far as time is concerned, I believe that there are two applications. There was a great judgment already at the time of the Parousia, which I believe occurred in the 1st century. But also there will be essentially the same awesome meeting with God for us individuals at the time of our death.

So again, two questions you did not really answer.

1. Does the bema judgment include lost people?
2. Are there punishments at the bema judgment?

 

[asterisktom]

So again, two questions you did not really answer.

1. Does the bema judgment include lost people?
2. Are there punishments at the bema judgment?

My answering the third effectively answered the first two also. But, OK, my answer is yes to both.

 

[John of Japan]

My answering the third effectively answered the first two also. But, OK, my answer is yes to both.

Okay. I felt your statement to be ambiguous.

 

[John of Japan]

Thank you for not wanting to misrepresent me. I don't get that courtesy from everyone.
I believe the two judgments are the same, only described under different terms. Additionally, as far as time is concerned, I believe that there are two applications. There was a great judgment already at the time of the Parousia, which I believe occurred in the 1st century. But also there will be essentially the same awesome meeting with God for us individuals at the time of our death.

But the description of the two judgments is completely different: seat vs. throne, books, etc. I think your preterist preunderstanding brings you to that statement rather than actual exegesis.

 

[asterisktom]

My answering the third effectively answered the

But the description of the two judgments is completely different: seat vs. throne, books, etc. I think your preterist preunderstanding brings you to that statement rather than actual exegesis.

Partially true. But exegesis was certainly involved as well. Also the realization that Revelation is a book with a large percentage of symbolism and metaphors. So the differences, as you say, are just different modes of explaining the same thing.

 

[John of Japan]

Partially true. But exegesis was certainly involved as well. Also the realization that Revelation is a book with a large percentage of symbolism and metaphors. So the differences, as you say, are just different modes of explaining the same thing.

And what you are missing is that 2 Cor. is NOT an apocalyptic book. And even with symbolism there should be some congruence between the two accounts if they are the same judgment, and there is none.

 

[John of Japan]

There is no congruence whatsoever between the two judgments, so how can they be the same? Notice the facts about each judgment:

Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor. 3 and 5 and Rom. 14:10): a seat; written to Christians (Paul says "we"); burnables and non burnables; no punishment but rewards; multiple passages with the same words

Great White Throne Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15): a throne not a seat; books of deeds; heaven and earth fled away, so this means the end of time; connected with the 1000 years ending (even if you don't believe that is literal it still must be exegeted); the book of life; cast into the lake of fire, etc.

 

[asterisktom]

There is no congruence whatsoever between the two judgments, so how can they be the same? Notice the facts about each judgment:

Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor. 3 and 5 and Rom. 14:10): a seat; written to Christians (Paul says "we"); burnables and non burnables; no punishment but rewards; multiple passages with the same words

Great White Throne Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15): a throne not a seat; books of deeds; heaven and earth fled away, so this means the end of time; connected with the 1000 years ending (even if you don't believe that is literal it still must be exegeted); the book of life; cast into the lake of fire, etc.

Have you never considered that the thousand years, found only in this book filled with symbols, might also be symbolic?

 

[John of Japan]

Have you never considered that the thousand years, found only in this book filled with symbols, might also be symbolic?

Nope. It is mentioned seven times in that one passage. Interpreting by the grammatical-historical message, no symbolic passage even comes close to that.

 

[asterisktom]

Nope. It is mentioned seven times in that one passage. Interpreting by the grammatical-historical message, no symbolic passage even comes close to that.

Well, that is up to you. You interpret it that way and I will interpret it according to the method encouraged by Rev. 1:1:

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,"
"καὶ ἐσήμανεν ἀποστείλας διὰ τοῦ ἀγγέλου αὐτοῦ, τῷ δούλῳ αὐτοῦ Ἰωάνῃ,"

The word "ἐσήμανεν" can, of course, be translated “to show”, as many versions chose, but to do so still misses the main thrust of the word here, namely that John was writing about actual signs, and symbols. A more recent cognate of this word is “semaphore”, referring to a device using symbols and markings to communicate information to trains, ships, and airplanes. Airplanes are directed on the tarmac by workers holding flags in certain positions. Likewise, readers of this book can be directed by the symbols God has given us. These symbols include numbers.

 

[John of Japan]

Well, that is up to you. You interpret it that way and I will interpret it according to the method encouraged by Rev. 1:1:

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,"
"καὶ ἐσήμανεν ἀποστείλας διὰ τοῦ ἀγγέλου αὐτοῦ, τῷ δούλῳ αὐτοῦ Ἰωάνῃ,"

The word "ἐσήμανεν" can, of course, be translated “to show”, as many versions chose, but to do so still misses the main thrust of the word here, namely that John was writing about actual signs, and symbols. A more recent cognate of this word is “semaphore”, referring to a device using symbols and markings to communicate information to trains, ships, and airplanes. Airplanes are directed on the tarmac by workers holding flags in certain positions. Likewise, readers of this book can be directed by the symbols God has given us. These symbols include numbers.

By that reasoning the death of Christ was not literal, because Jesus used that exact word in John 12:33 about His death: "This he said, signifying what death he should die." A very similar reference, Jesus "signifying" His death, is John 18:32, "That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die."

There are three other occurrences of the word in the NT, and none of them point to anything symbolic, but all are signifying real events: John 21:19, Acts 11:28, and Acts 25:27. So I don't see where you can possibly get that σεμαίνω (present active indicative of ἐσήμανεν) in Rev. 1:1 points to symbolism. I don't see that meaning in any of my lexicons, either. (I looked it up in four.) If your meaning were correct, the lexicons would have a meaning of "showing symbols" or something similar, but that is not there.

PS "Semaphore" is not technically a cognate, but a derivative. The etymology of "semaphore" may be σεμαίνω, but etymology never points to the true meaning of a word. That is a job for usage, and in this post I have shown the NT usage is not "pointing symbolically" or "showing symbols."

 

[asterisktom]

Yes, it is a derivative also. I could have used that term and a small number reading this would understand. "Cognate" is more commonly understood in the sense I referred to. Please. This is a quibble.

And you are tieing down the meaning of σεμαίνω only to lexicons is insufficient. You need to also look in Scripture, first of all in the book where the word in question is used. Do you really not see that Revelation is full of symbols? Do I need to belabor that point?

Also, someone had thought that I am just writing this because of my preterism. But other non-preterists have noted this.

William Hendriksen wrote this in “More than Conquerors”:
“The entire book consists of changing scenes like these, of moving pictures and active symbols.”…
“N.B. the first verse of the book ‘and he made it known by means of signs (or symbols)’.”

 

[John of Japan]

Yes, it is a derivative also. I could have used that term and a small number reading this would understand. "Cognate" is more commonly understood in the sense I referred to. Please. This is a quibble.

It's not a quibble to a linguist, which is what I am. Here is a linguistic definition: "(Languages, words, etc.) that have developed from a common ancestor. E.g. English is cognate with German; likewise English beam is cognate with German Baum 'tree'" (P. H. Matthews, Oxford Concise Dictionary of Linguistics, p. 62).

And you are tieing down the meaning of σεμαίνω only to lexicons is insufficient. You need to also look in Scripture, first of all in the book where the word in question is used.

No offense, but you're not paying attention. In post #36 I gave every single other instance of the word in the NT, and not a single one has the meaning you gave it. I don't know what you are thinking of--you're missing what I'm saying.

o you really not see that Revelation is full of symbols? Do I need to belabor that point?

Well of course it is! It's an apocalyptic document, which form of literature always has symbolism! But that does not mean that it does not have literal meaning. Every symbol has meaning. Jesus as the Lamb of God has literal meaning in that He died as a sacrifice for our sin. So every symbol in Revelation is pointing to future history events.

Also, someone had thought that I am just writing this because of my preterism. But other non-preterists have noted this.

William Hendriksen wrote this in “More than Conquerors”:
“The entire book consists of changing scenes like these, of moving pictures and active symbols.”…
“N.B. the first verse of the book ‘and he made it known by means of signs (or symbols)’.”

I'm not impressed. I can quote commentaries on my side also.