Rev. 7 and the seals.

[webdog]

I posted this in the Baptist only section, and would like input from my non Baptist friends, also.

The first seal is the Anti Christ riding in. He is the cause of seals 2-5, where 5 is the death of martyrs. If God is the one causing the action of the seals, then that means he is responsible directly for the death of the martyrs in seal 5, no? Wouldn't this put the rapture after the start of the tribulation? Please provide Scripture and references supporting or refuting this pre wrath view of the rapture. I have always been pre trib, but my friend brought up the above point.

 

[Ed Edwards]

1 Thessalonians 13-5:11 (KJV1611 Edition):
But I would not haue you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleepe, that ye sorrow not, euen as others which haue no hope.
14 For if we beleeue that Iesus died, and rose againe: euen so them also which sleepe in Iesus, will God bring with him.
15 For this we say vnto you by the word of the Lord, That we which are aliue and remaine vnto the comming of the Lord, shall not preuent them which are asleepe.
16 For the Lord himselfe shall descend from heauen with a shout, with the voyce of the Archangel, and with the trumpe of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17 Then we which are aliue, and remaine, shalbe caught vp
together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord
in the aire: and so shall wee euer bee with the Lord.
18 Wherefore, comfort one an other with these words.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, yee haue
no need that I write vnto you.
2 For your selues knowe perfectly that the day of the
Lord so commeth as a thiefe in the night.
3 For when they shal say, Peace and safety: then sudden
destruction commeth vpon them, as trauaile vpon a woman
with childe, and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkenesse, that that day
should ouertake you as a thiefe.
5 Yee are all the children of light, and the
children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkenesse.
6 Therefore let vs not sleepe, as doe others:
but let vs watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleepe, sleepe in the night,
and they that bee drunken, are drunken in the night.
8 But let vs who are of the day, bee sober, putting on the brestplate of faith and loue, and for an helmet, the hope of saluation.
9 For God hath not appointed vs to wrath:
but to obtaine saluation by our Lord Iesus Christ,
10 Who died for vs, that whether we wake or sleepe,
we should liue together with him.
11 Wherefore, comfort your selues together,
and edifie one another, euen as also ye doe.

That is the verses about the pretribulation rapture
of the Church. Wwhat is NOT said:

"For God hath not appointed us unto God's wrath"

IMHO the first half of the tribulation period
is the wrath of the Antichrist (AKA: trib-lite)
and the second half of the tribulation period is the
WRATH OF GOD (AKA: 'great tribulation').

IMHO a pre-wrather should be a pretribber

 

[BobRyan]

7 seals - time divided into seven periods between the days of John and the return of Christ. The focus is on the major events impacting the Christian world in Europe.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

THE GREAT CONTROVERSY BETWEEN CHRIST AND SATAN
During the Christian Dispensation (Revew and Herald
Pubshiling Assn, 1907) by Mrs. E.G.White, page 329

//A.D. 538. Commencement of papal supremacy.
Beginning of the 1260 years.

A.D. 1798. Close of the 1260 years.
End of papal supremacy.//

By contrast, Ed notes that 3½ times 360 days per year
is 1260 days.
Ed notes that 42 months times 30 days per month
is 1260 days.
Ed notes that 'time, times, and half a time"
= 1+2+½ = 3½ years = 1260 days.

 

[BobRyan]

Err - umm - that is what we all say.

Daniel 9 shows us that each week is seven literal solar years (And at "Worst" they are years using the Jewish calendar that re-aligns itself to the solar year ever 3 years). So that is one prophetic day -- one year.

Rev 11-12 shows us that 1260 days is 42 months (so that is 30 days per month). And of course 3.5 prophetic years contains 1260 prophetic days -- which are 1260 years -- period.

Easy.

Obvious.

Direct.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[prophecynut]

Daniel was never informed about the future church in Christ, all his prophecies concerned his people the Israelites.

A period of time is coming called the "time of the end" (11:35,40), or "time of wrath" (36), a "time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then" (12:1; Mt. 24:21)NIV.

After God revealed the contents of the scroll to Daniel he was told to "seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end" (12:4). This scroll is still sealed today, it will not be opened until the "time of the end" when its contents will be fulfilled during the Tribulation.

The angel of the Lord (Christ) was asked by one of the other two angels, "How long will it be before these astonishing things (prophecies during the time of the end) are fufilled" (12:5-6)? The angel of the Lord answered, "It will be for a time, times and half a time" when "all these things will be completed" (12:7). A time, times and half a time is 3.5 prophetic years of 360 days each, or 1,260 days or 42 months, the same length of time prophecied in Revelation (11:2-3; 12:14; 13:5).

Edit Post, the first five seals ar caused by humans.

 

[webdog]

Edit Post, the first five seals ar caused by humans.

How? Please explain your view that humans are the cause of the first five seals.

 

[prophecynut]

There are several interpretations identifying the rider on the white horse as Jesus Christ or the Antichrist.

He cannot be Christ because chapter six begins the "time of the end" that ends with Christ's Second Coming in Rev. 19.

If the rider is actually the Antichrist, it would be necessary to identify the other three riders to remain consistant in our interpretations.

If the rider on the white horse is a personification of the Antichrist then the other riders can be interpreted as the same. The color of the horses symbolizes the conditions created on earth as the result of his actions and other antichrists in the world.

For the first rider, the NIV has him "as a conqueror bent on conquest," which implies he thinks he is a conqueror and he intends or has the inclination to conquer other nations.

The second rider takes "peace from the earth" and causes men to slay each other in warfare. The peace is the "Peace and safety" prevalent on earth just before the destruction of the Tribulation period begins (1 Thess. 5:3). Christ does not get involved in warfare until Armageddon.

The third rider causes famine which is the result of global war created by the rider on the red horse.

With the fourth rider, millions of people die and end up in hell as the result of war, famine and plague "over a fourth of the earth." When Christ fights at Armageddon only Israel will be the battle field.

The fifth seal does not have a rider on a horse because the scene of the martyred saints under the altar occurs near the end of Tribulation. These are the saints handed over to the Antichrist for 3.5 years or "the time of the end" (Dn. 7:25).

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
Daniel was never informed about the future church in Christ, all his prophecies concerned his people the Israelites.

That is totally false. In Daniel 7 he is shown the 4th beast (tne one AFTER the greek empire) -- ROME - and he sees a time AFTER it splits into its ten kingdoms (the fall of Rome) which is long after the time of Christ!! It is AFTER that time period that He is shown the saints taking posession of the kingdom!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[JackRUS]

I believe that these saints that are killed are some of the 144,000 Jews or perhaps some people that come to the faith after the Rapture.

"And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until
their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." Rev. 6:9-11 (see also Dan. 7:21-22)

God knows that when one is martyred that he/she gets a special blessing.

And it could be that "brethren" means the Jews (Rev. 19:10), and that "fellow servants" means Gentile Christians (Isa. 65:9)