Rev. 9:10: Historical Facts vs. Futurist Fiction

[robycop3]

These three questions are about the same thing. The Disciples saw this as one event, and Jesus answered by describing one event. History records the destruction of Jerusalem and the and the Temple in 70 A.D.

Right, but the only parts of the rest that have come about are war & rumor of war, false messiahs, persecution of Christians in many places, famines & earthquakes. But, Matt. 24:8) All these are the beginning of birth pains.

We all know birth pains can begin & last quite a while, but they always signal birth isn't far-off.

And Christians are not yet hated in all nations because of Jesus. And, of course, the 'abomination of desolation' hasn't yet occurred because the temple for it to occur in hasn't yet been built. But the birth pains have begun !

 

[robycop3]

Each of those have been fulfilled.

No, they HAVEN'T! History proves you wrong.

 

[robycop3]

I find it odd that although you are quite the expert on history, you fail to recognize fulfillment of "End Times" prophecies. You've only "proven" your views to those who have bought into the "futurist" view.

That's because they HAVEN'T yet been fulfilled. Their LITERALNESS is proven by the literal fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse up to now. J & the temple were destroyed, there's been war & rumor of war, quakes & famines & false prophets & false messiahs.
Jesus said the temple would be so destroyed that no stone would be left on toppa another, & that's what happened, TO THE LETTER. The Romans burned it to try to get at some gold supposedly cached between its stones. Thus, they pried the stones apart, to the ground, but found no gold. The Wailing Wall is not part of the temple, but part of a wall built around the temple complex.

And Jesus simply said J would be destroyed, which it was, but it was soon rebuilt, much-faster than it was after the Babylonian destruction.

But right now, not all nations hate Christians because of Jesus, but it's slowly coming! And the Gospel, while having been preached in many nations to many peoples, has NOT yet been preached to EVERY nation or people. However, with modern media & modes of travel, it's not far off. (A notable example is that island off the coast of India where the missionary was killed a coupla years ago, & no outsider is permitted to land.)

And you should examine what "the end" is. It's NOT the end of the world, but the end of this age. It'll begin when the antichrist comes to power & be finalized when Jesus returns & casts the antichrist & false prophet alive into the lake of fire.

You have a lot to learn about the eschatological prophecies. You can learn this by CAREFULLY reading the prophecies in Daniel, paying close attention to 2 Thess.2, and CAREFULLY reading Revelation, believing it literally as possible. What symbolism it has isn't difficult to understand its literal meanings. The angel gave John (& us) the literal meanings of Ch. 17, for example. And we see that the 'beast' will be both an empire and the man who will run it.

As for the 'abomination of desolation', that's what the old Jews called the desecration done by Antiochus Epiphanes when he entered the temple, set up a statue of Zeus in it, & sacrificed a pig on the altar. (If you don't believe me, just ask any rabbi !) Thus, Jesus repeated that phrase to His disciples as He knew they'd know what He meant. Thus, there'll be another AOD in the new temple the Jews will build in Jerusalem.

Remember, Paul wrote that the 'man of sin' would sit in the temple and proclaim himself God. He didn't say it'd be a Roman soldier, etc. but the particular man of sin, also called "that Wicked, son of perdition(a title given elsewhere only to Iscariot) antichrist, beast", etc. And Revelation says he will set up a statue of himself in that temple, which the false prophet will supernaturally make speak.

And also the antichrist won't recognize any god but himself, & some "god of fortresses" we know nothing about now. Titus & the Romans worshipped the Roman pantheon, with Titus returning to Rome & honoring them for his victory at Jerusalem, so he certainly wasn't "the" antichrist!.

So, it's EASY TO SEE in history that the eschatological prophecies have NOT yet been fulfilled !

You pulled another "Casey At The Bat", Lodic !

 

[timtofly]

Newspaper eiseges is when you try to read prophecies into today's news. Proper Biblical exegesis is to study Scripture without a bias of looking for evidence to support any particular view.

The historical record is still the news headlines of a particular period of time. It does not matter whose history you are trying to interpret prophecy with. The 1900's is past history and you accuse people today of viewing them just like people view 70AD. One generation is just the same as any other generation in trying to fit the "news" into prophecy. Josephus was the eye witness account writing down his experience, just like any other news reporter. He was not researching old reports when it came to 70AD. Using Josephus is the same as any other newspaper eiseges.

In fact he noted himself prophecy was fulfilled when some fled prior to the attack. He provided himself that newspaper eiseges.

 

[timtofly]

Jesus was answering His disciples' questions. He had no reason to change the subject and possibly leave them wonder what He was talking about.

The world Jesus was talking about was the Roman Empire, not the entire world. More specifically, He was describing the end of the Old Covenant system.

He was not talking about the Old Covenant. Quote one verse that points out the Old Covenant even in symbolism.

 

[timtofly]

You are a Dispensational, aren't you?

I point out the facts in Scripture. When God rent the Temple veil from top to bottom, it was God saying, "It is finished" echoing the words of Jesus on the Cross. What was finished? An age? A dispensation? The OT? The old covenant? Abraham's bosom was closed, and Paradise, the temple of God, Mount Zion, the throne and alter were opened. Hebrews 11 was fulfilled for those OT believers, who were brought into the church as the firstfruits in Christ. The Last Day Resurrection was the Cross.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

This happened at the Cross. This was the temple of His body that was the judgment and Atonement for sin. That ended the Old Covenant. Nothing in the Olivet Discourse mentions this judgment. The Olivet Discourse and the next verses are still future:

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Many want to lump this in with the above verses and declare one final ending. Or they take these two verses out of context. This was not fulfilled in 70AD. It will not even be fulfilled at the Second Coming. It is an ongoing process and ends at the GWT, 1000 years after the Second Coming.

If being dispensational means not lumping 3000 years into the year 70AD, then sure.

 

[robycop3]

I point out the facts in Scripture. When God rent the Temple veil from top to bottom, it was God saying, "It is finished" echoing the words of Jesus on the Cross. What was finished? An age? A dispensation? The OT? The old covenant? Abraham's bosom was closed, and Paradise, the temple of God, Mount Zion, the throne and alter were opened. Hebrews 11 was fulfilled for those OT believers, who were brought into the church as the firstfruits in Christ. The Last Day Resurrection was the Cross.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

This happened at the Cross. This was the temple of His body that was the judgment and Atonement for sin. That ended the Old Covenant. Nothing in the Olivet Discourse mentions this judgment. The Olivet Discourse and the next verses are still future:

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Many want to lump this in with the above verses and declare one final ending. Or they take these two verses out of context. This was not fulfilled in 70AD. It will not even be fulfilled at the Second Coming. It is an ongoing process and ends at the GWT, 1000 years after the Second Coming.

If being dispensational means not lumping 3000 years into the year 70AD, then sure.

Prets seemta think everyone who doesn't believe their false doctrine (the vast majority of Christians) are dispies.

But Abe's bosom & paradise are one & the same. Jesus went to paradise, not heaven, for 3 days & nights, as did the repentant thief on the cross, & that's where stayed, while Jesus left. Jesus didn't go back to heaven til He ascended from the Mt. of Olives.

 

[37818]

These three questions are about the same thing. The Disciples saw this as one event, and Jesus answered by describing one event. History records the destruction of Jerusalem and the and the Temple in 70 A.D.

Thank you.
For the record futurist understand the second two questions as dictinct from the first question. And futurist have the understanding that it is not recorded that Jesus had ever answered that first question, ". . . when shall these things be?" But only answered the second two, "and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" These three distinct questions are separated by "and." There is no basis for the disciples to assume His coming or the end of the age with the distruction of the temple. None.

 

[robycop3]

Thank you.
For the record futurist understand the second two questions as dictinct from the first question. And futurist have the understanding that it is not recorded that Jesus had ever answered that first question, ". . . when shall these things be?" But only answered the second two, "and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" These three distinct questions are separated by "and." There is no basis for the disciples to assume His coming or the end of the age with the distruction of the temple. None.

As I said, the LITERAL fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse so far shows that the rest shall be fulfilled JUST-AS-LITERALLY.

Matt. 24:Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

And in Luke, Jesus ties this with the destruction of J -

Luke 19:43-44(Speaking to the city itself) For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.

J was destroyed, but was soon rebuilt. But the Romans wouldn't let them rebuild the temple, & after Hadrian booted them from their land, they were in no position to rebuild it.

Yes, history shows us when some of the Discourse was fulfilled, TO THE LETTER.

And Jesus answered the question about "when" by saying, "When you see the AOD..." and that only His father knew the exact time of His return.

 

[37818]

As I said, the LITERAL fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse so far shows that the rest shall be fulfilled JUST-AS-LITERALLY.

Matt. 24:Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

And in Luke, Jesus ties this with the destruction of J -

Luke 19:43-44(Speaking to the city itself) For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.

J was destroyed, but was soon rebuilt. But the Romans wouldn't let them rebuild the temple, & after Hadrian booted them from their land, they were in no position to rebuild it.

Yes, history shows us when some of the Discourse was fulfilled, TO THE LETTER.

And Jesus answered the question about "when" by saying, "When you see the AOD..." and that only His father knew the exact time of His return.

OK.
Jesus in Luke 19:44-44 was speaking to Jerusalem regarding the Temple. That was fulfilled in 70AD.
". . . For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation. . . ."

 

[robycop3]

OK.
Jesus in Luke 19:44-44 was speaking to Jerusalem regarding the Temple. That was fulfilled in 70AD.
". . . For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation. . . ."

Well, ACTUALLY, it was the whole city. Many remains have been excavated, showing the whole city was destroyed, either pulled down or burned-not just the temple.

 

[37818]

Well, ACTUALLY, it was the whole city. Many remains have been excavated, showing the whole city was destroyed, either pulled down or burned-not just the temple.

What goes against even the Orthodox Preterist interpetation of Matthew 24, I believe, are Jesus' words, Luke 19:44, ". . . they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation." "thou" meaning Jerusalem, to whom Jesus spoke.

 

[Lodic]

Right, but the only parts of the rest that have come about are war & rumor of war, false messiahs, persecution of Christians in many places, famines & earthquakes. But, Matt. 24:8) All these are the beginning of birth pains.

We all know birth pains can begin & last quite a while, but they always signal birth isn't far-off.

And Christians are not yet hated in all nations because of Jesus. And, of course, the 'abomination of desolation' hasn't yet occurred because the temple for it to occur in hasn't yet been built. But the birth pains have begun !

This is about 1st century Christians. All of the events Jesus described came to pass.

 

[Lodic]

No, they HAVEN'T! History proves you wrong.

No, they HAVEN'T! History proves you wrong.

Or so you keep trying to convince me.

 

[Lodic]

That's because they HAVEN'T yet been fulfilled. Their LITERALNESS is proven by the literal fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse up to now. J & the temple were destroyed, there's been war & rumor of war, quakes & famines & false prophets & false messiahs.
Jesus said the temple would be so destroyed that no stone would be left on toppa another, & that's what happened, TO THE LETTER. The Romans burned it to try to get at some gold supposedly cached between its stones. Thus, they pried the stones apart, to the ground, but found no gold. The Wailing Wall is not part of the temple, but part of a wall built around the temple complex.

And Jesus simply said J would be destroyed, which it was, but it was soon rebuilt, much-faster than it was after the Babylonian destruction.

But right now, not all nations hate Christians because of Jesus, but it's slowly coming! And the Gospel, while having been preached in many nations to many peoples, has NOT yet been preached to EVERY nation or people. However, with modern media & modes of travel, it's not far off. (A notable example is that island off the coast of India where the missionary was killed a coupla years ago, & no outsider is permitted to land.)

And you should examine what "the end" is. It's NOT the end of the world, but the end of this age. It'll begin when the antichrist comes to power & be finalized when Jesus returns & casts the antichrist & false prophet alive into the lake of fire.

You have a lot to learn about the eschatological prophecies. You can learn this by CAREFULLY reading the prophecies in Daniel, paying close attention to 2 Thess.2, and CAREFULLY reading Revelation, believing it literally as possible. What symbolism it has isn't difficult to understand its literal meanings. The angel gave John (& us) the literal meanings of Ch. 17, for example. And we see that the 'beast' will be both an empire and the man who will run it.

As for the 'abomination of desolation', that's what the old Jews called the desecration done by Antiochus Epiphanes when he entered the temple, set up a statue of Zeus in it, & sacrificed a pig on the altar. (If you don't believe me, just ask any rabbi !) Thus, Jesus repeated that phrase to His disciples as He knew they'd know what He meant. Thus, there'll be another AOD in the new temple the Jews will build in Jerusalem.

Remember, Paul wrote that the 'man of sin' would sit in the temple and proclaim himself God. He didn't say it'd be a Roman soldier, etc. but the particular man of sin, also called "that Wicked, son of perdition(a title given elsewhere only to Iscariot) antichrist, beast", etc. And Revelation says he will set up a statue of himself in that temple, which the false prophet will supernaturally make speak.

And also the antichrist won't recognize any god but himself, & some "god of fortresses" we know nothing about now. Titus & the Romans worshipped the Roman pantheon, with Titus returning to Rome & honoring them for his victory at Jerusalem, so he certainly wasn't "the" antichrist!.

So, it's EASY TO SEE in history that the eschatological prophecies have NOT yet been fulfilled !

You pulled another "Casey At The Bat", Lodic !

While Mighty Casey struck out, I have not. We agree that "The End" refers to the end of the Age. We disagree on what "Age" is in view. It's the end of the Old Covenant system.

I have carefully studied Daniel, Thessalonians, Revelation, and the Olivet Discourse. I know eschatology a lot better than you think that I do. I have learned to discern between passages that are to be taken literally and symbolic language. I know for a fact that these prophecies have been fulfilled.

I am familiar with Antiochus Epiphanes, and I agree this was an abomination of desolation. A foreshadowing of the Roman army's AOD. I have been on the road for the past week, so I can't go into detail about my views. I'm sure I've shared them before in a different discussion.

 

[Lodic]

The historical record is still the news headlines of a particular period of time. It does not matter whose history you are trying to interpret prophecy with. The 1900's is past history and you accuse people today of viewing them just like people view 70AD. One generation is just the same as any other generation in trying to fit the "news" into prophecy. Josephus was the eye witness account writing down his experience, just like any other news reporter. He was not researching old reports when it came to 70AD. Using Josephus is the same as any other newspaper eiseges.

In fact he noted himself prophecy was fulfilled when some fled prior to the attack. He provided himself that newspaper eiseges.

We apply different meanings to newspaper eiseges. I agree that we see historical confirmation of prophecies.

 

[Lodic]

He was not talking about the Old Covenant. Quote one verse that points out the Old Covenant even in symbolism.

Can you quote one verse that proves Jesus was talking about events hundreds or thousands of years in the future (of His original audience)? I am traveling for the next few days so I can't answer in much detail. The OD is literal history that was fulfilled in 70 A.D.

 

[Lodic]

I point out the facts in Scripture. When God rent the Temple veil from top to bottom, it was God saying, "It is finished" echoing the words of Jesus on the Cross. What was finished? An age? A dispensation? The OT? The old covenant? Abraham's bosom was closed, and Paradise, the temple of God, Mount Zion, the throne and alter were opened. Hebrews 11 was fulfilled for those OT believers, who were brought into the church as the firstfruits in Christ. The Last Day Resurrection was the Cross.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

This happened at the Cross. This was the temple of His body that was the judgment and Atonement for sin. That ended the Old Covenant. Nothing in the Olivet Discourse mentions this judgment. The Olivet Discourse and the next verses are still future:

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Many want to lump this in with the above verses and declare one final ending. Or they take these two verses out of context. This was not fulfilled in 70AD. It will not even be fulfilled at the Second Coming. It is an ongoing process and ends at the GWT, 1000 years after the Second Coming.

If being dispensational means not lumping 3000 years into the year 70AD, then sure.

What was finished on the Cross was Christ paying for our sins.

My "Dispensationalist" question came from your comments about the Church Age. I believe the Olivet Discourse prophecies have been fulfilled, but the Great White Throne Judgement is still in our future.

 

[Lodic]

Thank you.
For the record futurist understand the second two questions as dictinct from the first question. And futurist have the understanding that it is not recorded that Jesus had ever answered that first question, ". . . when shall these things be?" But only answered the second two, "and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" These three distinct questions are separated by "and." There is no basis for the disciples to assume His coming or the end of the age with the distruction of the temple. None.

As a former "futurist", I understand the viewpoint. I think there is no basis for not connecting the questions. Jesus was talking about the end of the Old Covenant system. Their world was about to come crashing down.

 

[robycop3]

This is about 1st century Christians. All of the events Jesus described came to pass.

Nupe ! History says otherwise.