Revelation 12: Who is this Woman?

[savedbymercy]

vooks

No my brother, they are not one.

Maybe not in your understanding, but in mine they are ! Christ and His Seed are of One . Christ is the Head of the Church, and they are One ! 1 Cor 12:12

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

A type of what?

The Women in Rev 12 ? Mary gave Birth to the one that was to do thise Rev 12:5

5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Thats the child prophesied here also Isa 9:6

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Now is not that the same Child Born here Gal 4:4

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law or here

Lk 2:34

And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

This Child is the One spoken of in Rev 12:5

And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

 

[vooks]

vooks



Maybe not in your understanding, but in mine they are ! Christ and His Seed are of One . Christ is the Head of the Church, and they are One ! 1 Cor 12:12

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

Christ and His Seed are one and nobody said they are not. You are equivocating. The question is how can Christ and His Seed be the Woman at the same time seeing the woman is persecuted separately and then hid in the wilderness while the Dragon pursues her other seed?

Please share your 'understanding'

The Women in Rev 12 ? Mary gave Birth to the one that was to do thise Rev 12:5

5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Thats the child prophesied here also Isa 9:6

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Now is not that the same Child Born here Gal 4:4

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law or here

Lk 2:34

And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

This Child is the One spoken of in Rev 12:5

And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

If that Woman is Mary, then equally she gave birth to Christians which is absurd.
Besides, she gives birth and the child is caught up and then she flees to the wilderness in that order. Can you attempt to piece historical events to these?
1. Child born- Jesus is born of Mary as you insist

Now fill up the blanks and note they are SEQUENTIAL
2. Child caught up in heaven( v5)-what is this?
3. Satan cast down and attempts to fight the woman(v13)- what is this?
3. Woman hidden in the wilderness for 1,260 days(v6,14)-what is this?
4. The Dragon frustrated with her now pursues the rest of her remnants(v17)-who are these?

 

[savedbymercy]

vooks

Christ and His Seed are one and nobody said they are not.

Did I say that you said they werent ?

I said you and i have a different understanding on something !

I had stated earlier

The Women and Her Seed are One !

You said they werent !

 

[savedbymercy]

Christ and His Seed are one and nobody said they are not. You are equivocating. The question is how can Christ and His Seed be the Woman at the same time seeing the woman is persecuted separately and then hid in the wilderness while the Dragon pursues her other seed?

Please share your 'understanding'




If that Woman is Mary, then equally she gave birth to Christians which is absurd.
Besides, she gives birth and the child is caught up and then she flees to the wilderness in that order. Can you attempt to piece historical events to these?
1. Child born- Jesus is born of Mary as you insist

Now fill up the blanks and note they are SEQUENTIAL
2. Child caught up in heaven( v5)-what is this?
3. Satan cast down and attempts to fight the woman(v13)- what is this?
3. Woman hidden in the wilderness for 1,260 days(v6,14)-what is this?
4. The Dragon frustrated with her now pursues the rest of her remnants(v17)-who are these?

You lack understanding of analogy and or allegories ! The Church from above gave Birth to Christ, Typified by the Church on earth, the Saints. Mary is a Type of the Church, she gave Birth to Christ the Manchild, and the Church is Christ's Seed !

 

[savedbymercy]

Christ is the Seed of the Women Gen 3:15

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

And the Church is Christ's Seed Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Christ is Abraham's Seed Gal 3:16 and the Church that Belongs to Christ is Abraham's Seed Gal 3:29, all One Seed !

 

[vooks]

You lack understanding of analogy and or allegories !

Yes I do, and that's why this thread exists. I don't believe am beyond help

The Church from above gave Birth to Christ, Typified by the Church on earth, the Saints. Mary is a Type of the Church, she gave Birth to Christ the Manchild, and the Church is Christ's Seed !

From Galatians 4 we have two Jerusalems; the now Jerusalem , meaning the physical city that was in existence when Paul wrote Galatians, and the one from above. The one from above is the church, the body of Christ. How did it give birth to Christ?

 

[savedbymercy]

vooks

Yes I do, and that's why this thread exists. I don't believe am beyond help

At least you honest about it !

From Galatians 4 we have two Jerusalems; the now Jerusalem , meaning the physical city that was in existence when Paul wrote Galatians, and the one from above. The one from above is the church, the body of Christ. How did it give birth to Christ?

I see quite a few things in Gal 4 ! I believe the Jerusalem from above is analogous to the Women in Rev 12 as well as it being the Church Heb 12:22

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

The Church and Christ are One, so if you admit the Jerusalem from above is the Church, the Body of Christ, then admit that Christ and the Church are One. The Church was Chosen in Christ before the foundation the World began, when Christ was brought forth from everlastion as the Wisdom of God Prov 8:22-25

22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

The word for brought forth in Vs 24 and 25 are translated to be born or begotten or to beget

The LXX reads:

The Lord made me the beginning of his ways for his works. 23 He established me before time was in the beginning, before he made the earth: 24 even before he made the depths; before the fountains of water came forth: 25 before the mountains were settled, and before all hills, he begets me.

Christ and the Church were beget together in the Eternal Counsels of God. Adam and Eve are a Type of Christ and The Church and as Eve was the Mother of all the Living, The Church is the Mother of all the Living, and again the Women in Rev 12 is the Mother of all the Living, of Christ and His Church !

Now this is my understanding, I cant make you believe it, but I have a biblical basis for believing it.

Now, its time for you to prove that you are understanding what I am saying, even though you believe it not, because I have been doing all the explaining, and you have done nothing !

 

[BobRyan]

Revelation 12:6 (KJV)
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days

Revelation 12:14-16
(KJV) And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent

When I first read this, I figured it was Mary the mother of Jesus. Before that I had read some Watchtower paraphernalia about apocalypse so I 'knew' Revelation had symbol. But then Just as fast I quickly dismissed it. John is writing many years after the birth of Christ and at least from his vantage point, the birth is past....history yet he had been told to;
Revelation 1:19 (KJV)
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter

Clearly John was no Josephus.

Now in 2015, we have some 'problems';
1. We may misread/misunderstand some or all Revelation symbols or read symbolism into some/all literal events and miss the boat by rivers,
2. Read PAST prophesied events as yet to come or current, or read FUTURE prophesied events as past. In either of this, we again miss the boat by rivers.

Brethren, I need your opinion on this Woman. It is obvious we may not agree on her ID and thus we may not all be right at the same time,but we can always discard some interpretations as wild and unwarranted on the basis of the text itself.

It is the Church before and after the first coming of Christ. As Romans 11 points out - both groups are grafted into one tree.

But I think the Catholic church thinks that this is just Jews. They came up with an idea that Revelation was primarily written (though in the 90's AD) - about Jews and the evil they might one day do to Christians.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[vooks]

It is the Church before and after the first coming of Christ. As Romans 11 points out - both groups are grafted into one tree.

But I think the Catholic church thinks that this is just Jews. They came up with an idea that Revelation was primarily written (though in the 90's AD) - about Jews and the evil they might one day do to Christians.

in Christ,

Bob

Hi BobRyan,
I like that, very concise. Let's try and fit some details.
1. Who is this man-child
2. What is 'caught up to God and his throne?
3. The 1,260 days of nourishing in the wilderness, what and where was that?

 

[Zenas]

The woman of Revelation 12 is most likely Mary. She is not the church, as some have suggested. The child of course is Jesus, and Jesus gave birth to the church, not the other way around.

It could be a reference to Israel, inasmuch as Jesus was a child of Israel. In that case the other children of Revelation 12:17 would be metaphysical Israelites as Paul has described in Galatians 4:26-28.

The plain and common sense meaning would suggest Mary, the one who gave birth to our Lord. So what about the rest of her children? They are followers of Christ—Christians the world over. Mary, although not their birth mother as she was of Jesus, is their spiritual mother. We see a hint of this in John 19:27, “Behold your mother!” However, Revelation 12:17 is the scriptural foundation for the idea that Mary is indeed our spiritual mother.

 

[vooks]

The woman of Revelation 12 is most likely Mary. She is not the church, as some have suggested. The child of course is Jesus, and Jesus gave birth to the church, not the other way around.

It could be a reference to Israel, inasmuch as Jesus was a child of Israel. In that case the other children of Revelation 12:17 would be metaphysical Israelites as Paul has described in Galatians 4:26-28.

The plain and common sense meaning would suggest Mary, the one who gave birth to our Lord. So what about the rest of her children? They are followers of Christ—Christians the world over. Mary, although not their birth mother as she was of Jesus, is their spiritual mother. We see a hint of this in John 19:27, “Behold your mother!” However, Revelation 12:17 is the scriptural foundation for the idea that Mary is indeed our spiritual mother.

Mary fleeing into the wilderness for 1,260 days? When was that?
Was it the flight to Egypt immediately after Jesus was born? If that was it, then Jesus must have been caught up in heaven immediately after his birth.

 

[Zenas]

Mary fleeing into the wilderness for 1,260 days? When was that?
Was it the flight to Egypt immediately after Jesus was born? If that was it, then Jesus must have been caught up in heaven immediately after his birth.

The 1,260 days is less clear and you must keep in mind that the book of Revelation is not written on a time line. It may have been the flight into Egypt. It may have been the diaspora (Acts 8:1), which seems to make more sense.

 

[vooks]

The 1,260 days is less clear and you must keep in mind that the book of Revelation is not written on a time line. It may have been the flight into Egypt. It may have been the diaspora (Acts 8:1), which seems to make more sense.

Thank you.
I agree that Revelation is not 'written on a time line', but nobody contests the labor pains came BEFORE birth of a child nor the child was caught up AFTER his birth, nor the flight to the wilderness came AFTER the child was born and caught up.

I think the disjointed time line applies from vision to vision but WITHIN a specific vision, a straight time line is maintained.

If flight in Egypt is the 1,260 days sojourn, I'd he highly interested in the caught up bit. Either way, Egypt or Acts 8:1, I have never viewed revelation as a historical narrative at least from John's point of view.

 

[Zenas]

Thank you.
I agree that Revelation is not 'written on a time line', but nobody contests the labor pains came BEFORE birth of a child nor the child was caught up AFTER his birth, nor the flight to the wilderness came AFTER the child was born and caught up.

I think the disjointed time line applies from vision to vision but WITHIN a specific vision, a straight time line is maintained.

If flight in Egypt is the 1,260 days sojourn, I'd he highly interested in the caught up bit. Either way, Egypt or Acts 8:1, I have never viewed revelation as a historical narrative at least from John's point of view.

How else can we properly view Revelation except from John's POV? Discerning what may be is another trick.

While it's not a historical narrative, much of it is rooted in historical events. Some of these "historical events" were contemporary events to John.

So, who in your opinion is the woman and what is the 1,260 days?

 

[vooks]

How else can we properly view Revelation except from John's POV? Discerning what may be is another trick.

While it's not a historical narrative, much of it is rooted in historical events. Some of these "historical events" were contemporary events to John.

So, who in your opinion is the woman and what is the 1,260 days?

I have no opinion on this. Any explanation I have seen is fraught with some challenges.

 

[vooks]

BobRyan,
The woman fled to the wilderness for 1,260 days (years by your day-for-year) principle. Care to shed some light on this?

 

[kyredneck]

This is just one of many occurrences given in the scriptures of 'the woman fleeing'. The primary occurrence in mind at the time of the writing would be this one:

When You See Jerusalem Surrounded.....

20 But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.
21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein.
22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

Compare with:

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:
5 for her sins have reached even unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Render unto her even as she rendered, and double unto her the double according to her works: in the cup which she mingled, mingle unto her double. Rev 18

 

[Eliyahu]

Hi BobRyan,
I like that, very concise. Let's try and fit some details.
1. Who is this man-child
2. What is 'caught up to God and his throne?
3. The 1,260 days of nourishing in the wilderness, what and where was that?

The Man-Child is Jesus Christ

<He was born> means <Born as the First-Fruit by Resurrection> as per Acts 13:33, Therefore Caught up means the ascension.


1260 days is the period between the Ascension of Yeshuah and the 3 1/2 times in the End times.

Therefore the X-period is denoted as 1260 days which was the same period of Jesus ministry.

The Holy Spirit conduct the ministry for 1260 days which is actually 2,000 years.


The Woman is the Holy Spirit which embrace the faithful members of the Assembly ( Church).

After 3 1/2 times the Woman disappear but leaves her offspring.

After 3 and a half years of persecution of the faithful believers, they will be raptured as we see RE 11:9-12 but the remaining Believers will glorify God ( Re 11:13) Devil will continue to fight the Remnant Offspring of the Woman during the latter 3 1/2 year period.

God Bless.

Eliyahu

 

[savedbymercy]

The Man-Child is Jesus Christ

<He was born> means <Born as the First-Fruit by Resurrection> as per Acts 13:33, Therefore Caught up means the ascension.


1260 days is the period between the Ascension of Yeshuah and the 3 1/2 times in the End times.

Therefore the X-period is denoted as 1260 days which was the same period of Jesus ministry.

The Holy Spirit conduct the ministry for 1260 days which is actually 2,000 years.


The Woman is the Holy Spirit which embrace the faithful members of the Assembly ( Church).

After 3 1/2 times the Woman disappear but leaves her offspring.

After 3 and a half years of persecution of the faithful believers, they will be raptured as we see RE 11:9-12 but the remaining Believers will glorify God ( Re 11:13) Devil will continue to fight the Remnant Offspring of the Woman during the latter 3 1/2 year period.

God Bless.

Eliyahu

The Man Child is Jesus Christ! Now let's remember that Christ had people chosen in Him before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4 !

 

[Eliyahu]

The Man Child is Jesus Christ! Now let's remember that Christ had people chosen in Him before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4 !

All people are chosen in Him.
Only the discovery of it is done by the Believers.

Eliyahu