Revelation 2:21

[sturgman]

QUOTE]Yes, let's stay ignorant shall we?! Don't try to use the common sense God gave us...[/QB][/QUOTE]

Ok, I forgot who I was dealing with. First, notice the smiley face, which would tell som that I was being sarcastic. I asumed some people in here would understand humor. Second, ignorance is telling people what God is without the benefit of scripture, as a whole not one verse. How about you take some time to cool off before you blow your load here guy. Thanks... Notice, no smiley face.

 

[sturgman]

Might I add, that mans logic is foolishness to God, keep your logic, I will stick to scripture.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by The_Narrow_Road:
Christ died for ALL, not all will be saved. All CAN be saved.

If Christ died for all, then all will be saved as all sin has been punished and the due penalty taken by Christ upon Himself. In that case it is not a matter of whether all can be saved but all will be saved. Period. To believe that Christ suffered the penalty of everyone's sins but that someone is still going to suffer the penalty for the same sins again makes a travesty of any kind of ability to understand the Bible. I dare say that no one could understand the Bible if Christ died for all, but all are not saved.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by sturgman:
Might I add, that mans logic is foolishness to God, keep your logic, I will stick to scripture.

The problem is, YOU used LOGIC to come to your decision to "stick to Scripture" instead of logic ("Keep your logic"):
(1) "Man's logic is foolishness to God"
(2) (If I use man's logic, I will be foolish)
(3)* "[Therefore] I will stick to scripture [rather than man's logic--"Keep your logic"]"

In other words you employed MAN'S(since your are a man) LOGIC (which you called "foolishness") to pooh-pooh logic. Nice....

*(Of course, I could have added a few more steps, but I'm sure you get the drift

)

 

[IndpndntBptst]

If Christ died for all, then all will be saved as all sin has been punished and the due penalty taken by Christ upon Himself.

The reason you believe that is because you have a distorted view of the atonement. Jesus said, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:" Moses lifted up the serpent, but the lifting up of the serpent did not secure the benefits thereof for any. Only those who looked at the serpent lived. In like manner, only those who look to Jesus in faith and repentance shall be saved.

[ January 30, 2003, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: IndpndntBptst ]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by IndpndntBptst:
In like manner, only those who look to Jesus in faith and repentance shall be saved.

And for what sin do you believe that anyone will be punished for after Christ has already been punished for that sin? Do you believe that God is unjust? Do you believe that God places double jeopardy on His precious creation?

 

[IndpndntBptst]

Those who die in their sins, go to hell and suffer for their sins. They never received the atonement by faith (Romans 5:11). They never repented, therefore their sins were not blotted out (Acts 3:19). They have trodden under foot the blood of the Son of God (Hebrews 10:29).

[ January 30, 2003, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: IndpndntBptst ]

 

[IndpndntBptst]

Do you believe that God places double jeopardy on His precious creation?

Excuse me, "precious creation?" Do you mean the same "precious creation" of which God unconditionlly damned the majority before the foundation of the world? Is that the precious creation to which you are referring?

[ January 30, 2003, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: IndpndntBptst ]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by IndpndntBptst:
You mean the same "precious creation" that God unconditionally damned before the foundation of the world?

God has not, does not, and will not unconditonally damn anyone. If this is what you believe, then I feel very sorry for you.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by IndpndntBptst:
Those who die in their sins

Don't you believe that Jesus suffered the penalty for these all of these sins? If He has done so, then no one else, no one else can suffer punishment for these same sins again.

If you teach that God will punish twice for the same sins, then your position is simply false and promotes an extremely heinous, false view of God if you believe God will unjustly punish someone for a sin that his Substitute has already suffered punishment for. Anyone for whom Christ has suffered as his Substitute will be, in fact cannot be anything other than, saved - a personal salvation that God will bring about in that's person's experience in His good, wise, and perfect timing. Period.

[ January 30, 2003, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: Ken H ]

 

[IndpndntBptst]

According to Calvinism, reprobation is an eternal decree of God. According to Romans 1, reprobation is the judgment of God pronounced upon those who knew the truth and supressed it. They knew God, but refused to acknowledge Him. If they had no chance to turn to God, they did not reject anything. Men go to hell because they did not receive the love of the truth that they might be saved. According to Calvinism, those who die and perish could not have been anyway, so what is up with Paul making such statements? For one to rejection something, there must needs be another option, else it was an involuntary rejection which is a contradiction in terms.

[ January 30, 2003, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: IndpndntBptst ]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by IndpndntBptst:
According to Calvinism, reprobation is an eternal decree of God.

You cannot lump all Calvinists into the same lump just as you cannot lump all non-Calvinists into the same lump. I do not fit in the box you wish to stuff this particular Calvinist into.

 

[IndpndntBptst]

If you do not believe in the eternal decree of repobation, you disagree with most Calvinists. What makes you think you can pick and choose which Calvinstic tenets to believe and reject?

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by IndpndntBptst:
What makes you think you can pick and choose which Calvinstic tenets to believe and reject?

As I said, Calvinism is not monolithic. Neither is Arminianism or any other form of non-Calvinism. Do you agree with every tenet that every other non-Calvinist believes in? I know you don't because I know for a fact that all non-Calvinists do not believe exactly alike and are in fact miles apart on issues.

 

[sturgman]

Posted by Doubting Thomas

(1) "Man's logic is foolishness to God"
(2) (If I use man's logic, I will be foolish)
(3)* "[Therefore] I will stick to scripture [rather than man's logic--"Keep your logic"]"


It seems you failed elementary logic. This is what is faulty logic let me go into it for you... I will speak slow.

Your point 1 is not my statement, it is Paul's statement, 1 Cor 1:25.

Point 2 is faulty because I never said all logic is bad, I said I will stick to scripture as opposed to pure logic. That means that logic that doesn't line up with scripture is foolishness.

About the olny thing that you came close too is point three, but that is wrong unless you align that logis with scripture.

Sorry you can't add 2 and 2.

 

[sturgman]

Originally posted by IndpndntBptst:
If you do not believe in the eternal decree of repobation, you disagree with most Calvinists. What makes you think you can pick and choose which Calvinstic tenets to believe and reject?

It is completely funny to me that this guy who isn't a calvinist is an expert about what most calvinist beleive in. Not only that, but he usually gets it wrong.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by The_Narrow_Road:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by npetreley:
Does God have perfect foreknowledge? If yes, then He knew in advance that it didn't matter how much time He gave her to repent. So even in a free will scenario, why would He give her time to repent if He knew it wouldn't matter?

God is not a dictator, He wants us to worship Him by our own free will. Look at Cain and Abel, Adam and Eve. Even Satan had a choice. God wants true love, not forced obedience. Everyone has the "time" to repent. God knows who will and who won't. Christ died for the sins of the world, no one excluded. Yet, the word of God says "he that believeth hath everlasting life". Christ died for ALL, not all will be saved. All CAN be saved. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, Arminians love this cut-and-paste diatribe about "God created free will in order for love to mean something". It may be absent from scripture, but it's a wonderful bedtime story.

But my question is simply if there is some reason you wrote this in response to my post? It has no obvious connection to what I said.

 

[sturgman]

Originally posted by IndpndntBptst:
According to Calvinism,

Here comes the expert calvinist.

reprobation is an eternal decree of God. According to Romans 1, reprobation is the judgment of God pronounced upon those who knew the truth and supressed it. They knew God, but refused to acknowledge Him. If they had no chance to turn to God, they did not reject anything.[/QB]

Ok, let us look at the law. Did God give them the law and tell them to follow every letter of the law so that they may be righteous before Him. Knowing all along that the law could not be kept by them. So God gave them a decree that they could not keep. This looks like a choice, but your saying that a choice with no real option is not a choice. The fact is that God can hold man accountable for rejecting his son, no matter who they are, and no matter if a call is made or not. He is God we are His creation.

Men go to hell because they did not receive the love of the truth that they might be saved.[/QB]

Funny, my bible say that men go to hell because of their sin... Men go to heaven because of His grace. If God did nothing we would all be in hell, so don't say it is God who sends people to hell, except as a righteous judge. God sends those to heaven as a merciful lord. Don't get that mixed up.

According to Calvinism, those who die and perish could not have been anyway, so what is up with Paul making such statements?[/QB]

Let us look at Paul's statement in Romans 9, "why does God still judge us, for who rejects his will?, but who are you oh man to talk back to God."

For one to rejection something, there must needs be another option, else it was an involuntary rejection which is a contradiction in terms. [/QB]

Again I point to the law. God gave it to them to point out their sin. So God gave them a directive that they could not keep. Is this an involuntary rejection? The truth is what gets you into heaven is perfection, you either have to be born of a virgin, live a perfect life, die, then raise to life to show you were perfect. The only other way is to ride the coat tails of one who already has. So if I say, you must be perfect to go to heaven. If I say this, I am right, yet it is impossible to do so. You would say that this is no option. So what is your point. Salvation is not a "chance" it is a positional statement.

 

[IndpndntBptst]

Paul explains why God gave the law in Galatians 3:24, "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." God gave the law to show unto us our sinful and helpless estate. There was a purpose. You are trying to tell me that God gave the law in order to bring us to Christ, but in the end, we still cannot come to Christ anyway. Did the purpose of God in giving the law fail?

Look at a statement in one of my previous posts:

Men go to hell because they did not receive the love of the truth that they might be saved.

You, in response to this, posted:

Funny, my bible say that men go to hell because of their sin.

The Bible does teach that the wages of sin is death. It is also funny that the Bible declares, "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; BECAUSE THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED." (II Thessalonians 2:10) It is amazing what you can disover in the Scriptures if you take off your Calvinistic veil. God hates sinners, huh? Mark 10:21-22, "Then Jesus beholding him LOVED him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions." I believe that Christ is the only way, but I also believe that God forces His grace upon no man. Jesus told His disciples, "But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil." (Luke 6:35) How is it then? God has established higher principles for His people than Himself? Blah, blah, blah...

 

[sturgman]

Just as you tell your son or daughter not to talk back to you, yet you seem to have quite a mouth on you. You set a standard for your child that is higher than you are willing to keep.

Actually though, you make it seem like God is held to a standard. I can't imagine where you get that from. Has no one ever taught you that God is the standard. You make it seem like God is wrong if he elects those for salvation. How can God be wrong.

I think you are the one who is veiled with your Arminian view. In your way of thinking verses in the bible contradict themselves. You talkk about God loving everyone equal (as if he had too), yet how do you explain Psalm 5:5. Is God loving to the world, yes, but you are implying that salvation is brought about by me somehow acting upon some love for God then him responding to me. You still haven't answered my previous question, let me ask it agian.

If Romans 3 says that we are incapable to seek after God, how can we come to him?

Dude, Romans is a letter, not a series of books from the same author.