Revelation is not about the FUTURE

[JesusFan]

The bodily (a physical body) resurrection of Jesus from the dead is essential and central to the gospel message.

to deny the physical resurrection for a merely spiritual one would deny a future second coming event, as would see all getting 'resurrected" when dead and raised to heaven n ow

 

[John of Japan]

Thank you very much. It is my wife's family and I just bought plane tickets for tomorrow for South Carolina. Pretty expensive, but these things happen.

I agree that the teaching does appear bizarre. But that in itself should not automatically disqualify it from consideration. And, no, I did not form this doctrine form a single verse.

It doesn't "appear bizarre, is bizarre. Question: what in the world theological purpose is there for saying Jesus is no longer physical? There are clear theological reasons for Christ's bodily resurrection and continuing in a physical state.

Several others help my case. Consider 1 Cor. 15:47:

“The first man is of the earth (ἐκ γῆς), earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven (ἐξ οὐρανοῦ) .”


This passage is a continuation of verse 40: somata epigeia and somata epourania now become “ek ges” and “ex ouranou”. This preposition (ek, ex) showing origin. Adam came from the earth, from the dust. This brings to mind the very passage from Genesis. The “Second Adam” came from heaven.

Note: In both cases, the origins determine the essence of who these two are – and (v. 48) the essence of their “followers”.


Verse 49 says that “we shall [or “let us”] bear the image of the heavenly man” (the Second Adam, from heaven).

Nope. Doesn't prove a thing you are saying. And you're mixing things up. Before you were saying that Christ is now (after resurrection) in some in between state between physical and spiritual. This passage doesn't prove that such a state exists.

We shall be like Christ.
And what is Christ like – according to this passage? He is like He was before He came to Earth. He is spiritual in body.
Was Christ fleshly before he came here to Earth? No. He was Spirit, right?
We – according to this passage – will also be like Him.
Spiritual bodies. Spirits of just men made perfect, as we are told in Hebrews.

We cannot have part Adam’s essence (“dust”) and part Christ’s, seeing that we could not then “enter into the Kingdom of God”, 1 Cor. 15:50. “Dust” has to do with “flesh and blood”, not spirit.

Wait a minute. Before you were saying He was not really spiritual. He was raised physically, but then sometime later became something not spiritual and not physical. Now you are saying, yep, Christ is now in a spiritual body. Make up your mind. Either you are totally mixed up and your theology is not working, or you are trying to trick us, and I certainly don't want to believe that.

 

[John of Japan]

@asterisktom
Can a "spiritual body" weep? Pretty sure it can't. Tear ducts are physical. Yet in the Bible it says that in Heaven God will "wipe away all tears from their eyes" (Rev. 7:17, 21:4).

 

[Hazelelponi]

I am hard wired to be unapologetically Aristotelian in my thinking. As a result, when I read the bible and came to Revelation, I read it the same way I read through the long genealogies in the OT [I do not understand why this is here or what point it is attempting to make, but LORD, just let me get through it and be done with this section.]

As a result, I do not have a sufficient vocabulary in eschatology to know the difference between Pretiestism and Amillenialism to answer your question.

Recently, I have taken a hard look at Revelation based on a new hermeneutic. I am approaching it from the assumption that is is NOT a mysterious collection of indecipherable symbols, but was written to people that knew EXACTLY what the author John was talking about. The present difficulty arises from the simple fact that as an Aristotelian thinker, I want it to be linear and prophetic and sequential … all the things we expect in western literature. Unfortunately, it is written as ‘friggin’ Hebrew literature, which is NOT linear and NOT sequential … it is THEMATICALLY organized and draws on hundreds of OT images that I barely recognize plus stupid cultural traditions that I never knew.

From this new hermeneutic, it is a letter written to a specific audience (those living in Asia Minor at the time John was imprisoned in Patmos). We have to figure out what they knew to understand the message that was painfully obvious to them. The reason it belongs in scripture and matters to us is not because it is warning us about a future ‘gloom and doom’ that we will suffer through, or be plucked out of the middle of, or be snatched out and avoid, or die long before it actually happens …. The reason it matters is because it is a SPIRITUAL message to people going through hard times (and we all go through hard times) about how to survive those hard times plus encouragement that the hard times are FINITE, while the KINGDOM that comes after those hard times is INFINITE. When THEY were in the middle of hard times, they needed to hear that GOD WINS. When WE are in the middle of hard times, we need to hear that GOD WINS.

Since most of y’all are better at these terms than I am … does that make me guilty of “Pretiestism”?

Have you picked up Kim Riddlebarger's book 'A case for Amillennialism: Understanding the End Times' yet?

It really is an excellent read...

 

[Hazelelponi]

@asterisktom
Can a "spiritual body" weep? Pretty sure it can't. Tear ducts are physical. Yet in the Bible it says that in Heaven God will "wipe away all tears from their eyes" (Rev. 7:17, 21:4).

Since Jesus is the first born of many brethren (Romans 8:29) we should recall Jesus ate fish and honeycomb in the presence of the disciples to prove he was physical. (Luke 24:36-43)

We will follow in His stead in the ressurection, meaning we will be just as physical, it will simply be in a perfected form.

 

[Blank]

As just one small example, 144,000 is 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 … 12 is the number of God’s People (how many times is that used symbolically in scripture), so 12 x 12 is all of Gods people (Jews and Gentiles). 10 is symbolic of “many”, so 10x10x10 is many x many x many … basically “infinite”. So putting those together means that 144,000 is “ALL OF GOD’S PEOPLE, A MULTITUDE BEYOND COUNTING”

Maybe, but which tribe is Brandon Robbins from?...

Revelation 7:5-6 NKJV
of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed; [6] of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed; Etc.

 

[JesusFan]

It doesn't "appear bizarre, is bizarre. Question: what in the world theological purpose is there for saying Jesus is no longer physical? There are clear theological reasons for Christ's bodily resurrection and continuing in a physical state.


Nope. Doesn't prove a thing you are saying. And you're mixing things up. Before you were saying that Christ is now (after resurrection) in some in between state between physical and spiritual. This passage doesn't prove that such a state exists.

Wait a minute. Before you were saying He was not really spiritual. He was raised physically, but then sometime later became something not spiritual and not physical. Now you are saying, yep, Christ is now in a spiritual body. Make up your mind. Either you are totally mixed up and your theology is not working, or you are trying to trick us, and I certainly don't want to believe that.

Seems to be pretty much as the JW state regarding Jesus "resurrection", as to them was born physically, died, physical body rotted away, and was raised up spiritual body. like Casper the friendly ghost

 

[JesusFan]

@asterisktom
Can a "spiritual body" weep? Pretty sure it can't. Tear ducts are physical. Yet in the Bible it says that in Heaven God will "wipe away all tears from their eyes" (Rev. 7:17, 21:4).

Can a spiritual body have wounds still, able to eat fish, and be able to be touched?

 

[JesusFan]

Have you picked up Kim Riddlebarger's book 'A case for Amillennialism: Understanding the End Times' yet?

It really is an excellent read...

Full blown Preterism always been regarded as being heresy

 

[JesusFan]

Since Jesus is the first born of many brethren (Romans 8:29) we should recall Jesus ate fish and honeycomb in the presence of the disciples to prove he was physical. (Luke 24:36-43)

We will follow in His stead in the ressurection, meaning we will be just as physical, it will simply be in a perfected form.

Jesus is firstborn of many of his brethren, as in he was first to be physically raised up in a glorified body, as the pattern for our own on

 

[JesusFan]

Maybe, but which tribe is Brandon Robbins from?...

Revelation 7:5-6 NKJV
of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed; [6] of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed; Etc.

Except specific names of specific Jewish tribes of national Israel were listed, not just symbolic tribes

 

[atpollard]

Maybe, but which tribe is Brandon Robbins from?...

Revelation 7:5-6 NKJV
of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed; [6] of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed; Etc.

If you are going STRICTLY LITERAL (my personal favorite hermeneutic), then why do the lists of the 12 tribes differ in different places? Did GOD abandon some of the Chosen People that God promised to never abandon? Was John getting a bit senile on Patmos and misremembered the names of Jacob's sons?

That seems FAR more important than Brandon Robbins lineage!

[Or just maybe ... was this more Revelation symbolism of something both SPIRITUAL ... and more important ... than fleshly ancestry?]

 

[atpollard]

Have you picked up Kim Riddlebarger's book 'A case for Amillennialism: Understanding the End Times' yet?

It really is an excellent read...

I have read about a third of it.
Two thoughts (out of the gate)

1. Now that I have a clearer definition of the TERMS, I lean strongly towards: AMILLENIALISM and MODERATE (partial) PRETERISM.
2. The "either/or" nature of the positions reminds me of the story of the Blind men and the Elephant ...

A group of blind men heard that a strange animal, called an elephant, had been brought to the town, but none of them were aware of its shape and form. Out of curiosity, they said: "We must inspect and know it by touch, of which we are capable". So, they sought it out, and when they found it they groped about it. The first person, whose hand landed on the trunk, said, "This being is like a thick snake". For another one whose hand reached its ear, it seemed like a kind of fan. As for another person, whose hand was upon its leg, said, the elephant is a pillar like a tree-trunk. The blind man who placed his hand upon its side said the elephant, "is a wall". Another who felt its tail, described it as a rope. The last felt its tusk, stating the elephant is that which is hard, smooth and like a spear.

Each position is so sure they have the exclusive TRUTH, yet the reality seems far more complex and beautiful than any one position can capture by excluding the observations of all others.
IE.: Does it really mean absolutely NOTHING that Israel was restored as a nation in a day with the stroke of a pen?

 

[John of Japan]

Since Jesus is the first born of many brethren (Romans 8:29) we should recall Jesus ate fish and honeycomb in the presence of the disciples to prove he was physical. (Luke 24:36-43)

We will follow in His stead in the ressurection, meaning we will be just as physical, it will simply be in a perfected form.

I completely agree. But that is not what asterisktom is saying.

 

[JD731]

Jesus, in his parables, immediately before the week leading up to his crucifixion and during that week explains in detail the reason for the casting away of Israel and his calling gentiles in his redemptive work. In Ephesians, Paul calls this "the wisdom of God." (To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God Ep 3:10), While the church is gentile in character and of tremendous blessing to us all, the ultimate purpose for it is so God can rebirth his nation Israel, keep his covenant promises to the family of Abraham and establish his rule over a converted earth through them. These parables are prophetic visuals of what lies ahead.

Speaking of Jesus,

1. Acts 3:22
   For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hearin all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
   
   
2. Acts 7:37
   This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

 

[JesusFan]

I have read about a third of it.
Two thoughts (out of the gate)

1. Now that I have a clearer definition of the TERMS, I lean strongly towards: AMILLENIALISM and MODERATE (partial) PRETERISM.
2. The "either/or" nature of the positions reminds me of the story of the Blind men and the Elephant ...


Each position is so sure they have the exclusive TRUTH, yet the reality seems far more complex and beautiful than any one position can capture by excluding the observations of all others.
IE.: Does it really mean absolutely NOTHING that Israel was restored as a nation in a day with the stroke of a pen?

So still see and hold to a future physical resurrection of the redeemed at second coming, correct?

 

[atpollard]

So still see and hold to a future physical resurrection of the redeemed at second coming, correct?

Yes. I think that like Paul's audience, we should still be anticipating a return of the LORD. I think a physical kingdom on earth just like the old Kingdom of David with a better ruler is setting the bar WAY too low for what comes with Jesus second return (counting death and resurrection as leaving and a first return), so I think the Millenialists undershot the plan of God on that one.

I think the most ACCURATE description of what is to come is ...

But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him" - 1 Corinthians 2:9 [ESV]

"For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known." - [1 Corinthians13:12 [ESV]

 

[Blank]

If you are going STRICTLY LITERAL (my personal favorite hermeneutic)

You would fool me with a statement like this

As just one small example, 144,000 is 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 … 12 is the number of God’s People (how many times is that used symbolically in scripture), so 12 x 12 is all of Gods people (Jews and Gentiles). 10 is symbolic of “many”, so 10x10x10 is many x many x many … basically “infinite”. So putting those together means that 144,000 is “ALL OF GOD’S PEOPLE, A MULTITUDE BEYOND COUNTING” …

As a Baptist, yes, I would go quite literal in comparison to theologically liberal Reformed or Preterist.

Did GOD abandon some of the Chosen People that God promised to never abandon?

No, He never abandoned His people, fulfilling His promises to Israel by sending them their Messiah.

Was John getting a bit senile on Patmos and misremembered the names of Jacob's sons?

No.

That seems FAR more important than Brandon Robbins lineage!

Unless Brandon is not born again.

[Or just maybe ... was this more Revelation symbolism of something both SPIRITUAL ... and more important ... than fleshly ancestry?]

No one said it was just fleshly ancestry, unless someone else is getting a bit senile here on the BaptistBoard.

 

[atpollard]

No one said it was just fleshly ancestry, unless someone else is getting a bit senile here on the BaptistBoard.

Before I start to ignore you, which is is? Are the tribes LITERAL TRIBES in which case 12,000 from Reuben is all about fleshly ancestry (I am not of the blood tribe of Reuben) or is it NOT about fleshly ancestry (in which case Reuben means something other than literal Reuben)?

Revelation 7:5-6 NKJV
of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed; [6] of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed; Etc.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Does it really mean absolutely NOTHING that Israel was restored as a nation in a day with the stroke of a pen?

We are Israel and look at all that has happened and how she has grown these last nearly 2,000 years...

Like wow. There was an approximate 275 million people on the entire earth during Jesus' ministry.

Now there's over 2 billion professing Christians alone! 1/4 of all the people on earth!

No, they aren't all saved, but still, just wow... Jesus Christ has changed the very face of the earth.

Today, we live in a type and shadow of our glorified future with Jesus standing as the tree of life, our bread of life . when we are glorified and are standing in the reality of all that God has prepared for us it will totally be amazing because this is amazing enough! More is so awesome...

In my understanding the physical nation doesn't have to be restored for all to have been fulfilled that has been written about them, but we never know what the Lord might do and we never stop hoping because Christ is our Hope and He already has the Victory!

God's amazing...