Revelation: Local or Global?

OK but I see myself in there as well.

HankD

 

whomever: ---------------------------------
And the people of every tongue and nation
heard the gospel by the mid sities AD as
I had shown earlier.
-------------------------------------------
That seems to be a popular declaration among
Christians:

Matthew 24:14 (HCSB):

This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed
in all the world as a testimony to all nations.
And then the end will come.


Items quoted from THE ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN WORLD,
1991-1992 Edition (Tyndale, 1990), page 305+.

61AD - Colossians 1:6 (HCSB):
the gospel that has come to you. It is bearing fruit
and growing all over the world, just as it has
among you since the day you heard it and recognized
God's grace in the truth.

c. 140AD - Hermas writes: "The Son of God ... has
been preached to the ends of the earth" (Shepherd
of Hermas).

197AD - Tertullian (c160-222) ... writes ... "There
is no nation indeed which is not Christian" ...

c. 205AD - Clement of Alexandria (c155-215) ... writes
"The whole world, with Athens and Greece, has already
become the domain of the Word."

c. 310 - Eusebius of Caesarea (c265-339) writes ...
""The doctrine of the Savious
has irradiated the whole Oikumene
(whole inhabited earth)"

378 - Jerome (c345-419) writes: "From India to Britian, all
nations resound with the death and resurrection of CHrist".
estimates 1.9 million Christians to have been marytred
since AD33 (out of 120 million Christians). ...

etc.

 

I'm more concerned with what inspired writers like Paul said.

If Paul says that was accomplished, was Jesus wrong in saying the end would come? Or did the end come? Or was Paul wrong?

Ed, was Matthew 24:14 accomplished according to Paul? Simple question.

I guess they all believed Paul. Do you?

 

Grasshopper: "If Paul says that was accomplished ... "

He didn't. Read his statement again.

As for "world" in Mat 24:15 it is (Strongs):

G3625
oy-kou-men'-ay
Feminine participle present passive of G3611 (as noun, by implication of G1093); land, that is, the (terrene part of the) globe; specifically the Roman empire: - earth, world.

See what Paul said:
61AD - Colossians 1:6 (HCSB):
the gospel that has come to you. It is bearing fruit
and growing all over the world, just as it has
among you since the day you heard it and recognized
God's grace in the truth.

Paul did not declare that the prophecy of Jesus\
was complete. As noted above, Hermas, Tertullian,
Clement of Alexandria, Eusebius, and Jerome all
claimed 140-378AD that the oy-kou-men'-ay world was
being won to the gospel.

I see that Matthew 24:4-15 is signs that the
Aeon of the Gentiles, the Church Age, continues.
In the years 140-378AD the Ameican Indians never
got systematically told the good news. It is
happening now. Not every person in the world today
has heard the good news that "Jesus saves".

As for your four verses, check the greek and see
which are oy-kou-men'-ay world and which are
kosmos world.

 

But grasshopper weren't you just quoting chapter and verse from Josephus on the previous page?

HankD

 

When dealing with history of that era I think Josephus is quite accurate. When dealing with theology I think the NT writers are quite accurate.

 

How many translations of the Bible did you have to go through to find that one? It is more of a commentary than translation. Still if it is bearing fruit and growing all over the world then the Gospel must have reached those areas. Anyone reading this just open your bible and read it for yourself and see if Ed is trying to mis-lead you.

Young's Literal Translation:
6which is present to you, as also in all the world, and is bearing fruit, as also in you, from the day in which ye heard, and knew the grace of God in truth;

NASB:
6which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth;

NKJV:
6which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

Dispies say the church age began at the death/resurrection of Christ or at Pentecost, however Paul says 20-30 years after those events that the end of the ages had come upon them.


I Cor 10:11Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

You must believe the beginning of the church age and the end of the church age are at the same place in time.

If you will actually read the verses, I showed the greek. Every greek word used by Jesus was said to have occured by Paul.

Commands by Jesus:

Matt.24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world ( oiÎkoumeÑnh ) for a testimony unto all the nations ( eáqnov ); and then shall the end come.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world ( ko/smov ), and preach the gospel to the whole creation .(ktiðsiv)

Matt.28:19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations (eáqnov ), baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth ( gh=),

Paul says all were accomplished:

Col.1:6 which is come unto you; even as it is also in all the world ( ko/smov ) bearing fruit and increasing, as it doth in you also, since the day ye heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

Col 1:23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation ( ktiðsiv )under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister

Romans 16:26 but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations ( eáqnov ) unto obedience of faith:

Romans 10:18 But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth ( gh=), And their words unto the ends of the world ( oiÎkoumeÑnh ).

Which did Paul leave out?

Now since you seem to believe those words don't mean global, then how can you say they mean global in Revelation? You can't have it both ways.

See how many times "ge" is used in Revelation. Find the use of "oikoumene" in Revelation.

If you say those terms mean global in Revelation then why don't they mean global when Paul used them? If they do not mean global as Paul used them then why must they mean global when John used them in Revelation?

 

it is certainly possible that the scripture is referring to a certian people yet the events affect the entire world. Look at the 9/11 attacks, when the trade center was hit the stock market, our common bond to the entire world through trade..that crash into a set of two simple buildings caused the monetary value of twenty different types of currencies to drop affecting almost every nation on this planet. Imagine if the US fell, seeing that we financially support many nations. Look at the assassination of archduke ferdinand... one little murder ultimately set unstoppable events in order that led to a world war. I believe that the judgments and prophecies are for one certian group but the effects will be world wide due to alliances and connections.

 

Grasshopper: "Now since you seem to believe those words don't mean global, then how can you say they mean global in Revelation? You can't have it both ways."

Don't waste your money betting on it

Revelation 16:12 (HCSB):

The sixth poured out his bowl on the great
river Euphrates, and its water was dried up
to prepare the way for the kings from the east.

What part of the Roman Empire was beyond
the Euphrates? What part of the Roman
Empire was related to the Kings east of
the Euphrates?

Revelation 9:16 (HCSB):
The number of mounted troops was 200 million;
I heard their number.

NOte that 200,000,000 was the approximate population
of the earth at the time John wrote this.
The population of the Roman empire at that time
was but 20 million or so. How could John see
200 Million, 10 times the population of the Roman
Empire? Maybe God knew about more of
the world than the Roman Empire?

 

OK, but still, Ed wasn't doing anything a whole lot different than you when you quoted Josephus to prove your point versus his quoting of the early church fathers to prove his point.

IMO of course.

HankD

 

Why don't you answer instead of playing bookie?

What does it have to do with the Roman Empire? The context of world could be Judea, Roman Empire, or known world. Do you believe the Gospel reached the Euphrates by AD70? If you do then according to Paul the Euphrates would be part of the term "world". Not to difficult. Had it said the Amazon or Mississippi you might have a point.

Of course the first obvious problem is they are on horseback. Have you done calculations for the number of horses in the middle-east? Where will these horseback riders come from and how long will their journey be? Remember,you take it literally.

Now the literal translation is:

16and the number of the forces of the horsemen [is] two myriads of myriads, and I heard the number of them.

Now do a little homework and find out what a myriad is and then see if "of" should be used as a multiplier.

Now Ed, answer these unanswered questions:

A.Was Matthew 24:14 fulfilled according to Paul?

B.If this is literal:
“there was a great earthquake... and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth...
1. how can star s fall to the earth? Since one star would completely cover and destroy it.
2. Why did Jesus tell the disciples to leave Judea:

Luke 21:21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Why does it matter if you leave Judea, one star will take out the whole planet. Not only Judea but London, Sydney and Kalamazoo. Will Pella or another Middle-eastern city be safe from this global inferno?

 

The only difference is Paul already answered the theological issue,which was: had the gospel been preached to the whole world. Had Paul not addressed it then those early church father's opinions would carry much weight.
However since the Bible's purpose isn't to give a history lesson we rely on historians of those particular eras to help fill in the blanks.
Since Josephus records the falling of cities and the Bible is silent on it( because it happened after the writing of the NT) Josephus become a valid authority on the historical fulfillment.

Now Hank its time to stop heckling me, and get out of the stands and into the game.
Was Matthew 24:14 fulfilled according to Paul, if so did the end come?

 

It was not a heckle. I was drawing your attention to your apparent double standard (and later apparent rationalization): You quote a secular historian to support your views but when Ed cites Church Fathers you balk because it is not Scripture.

No.

HankD

 

Grasshopper: "Was Matthew 24:14 fulfilled according to Paul?"

No. You missed totally what i was trying to say.
Matthew 24:4-14 is the answer to the third of the
disciples qustions in Matthew 24:3 - "what is the
sign of the end of the age"?

I probably already answered your question,
but you missed it. I said:
----------------------------------
In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. I believe the major
outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.
----------------------------------


Actually the signs of the Church Age never
get fulfilled. They are signs that we are
still in the church age. If the signs
QUIT, the pretribulation rapture will come
or better still: when the pretribulation rapture
comes, the signs will quit.
So i think the end is near every time peace starts
to break out to replace the endless wars.

 

I don't know how you can come to that conclusion. But if Jerome says otherwise,OK.

Matt.24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world ( oiÎkoumeÑnh ) for a testimony unto all the nations ( eáqnov ); and then shall the end come.

Romans 16:26 but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations ( eáqnov ) unto obedience of faith:

Romans 10:18 But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth ( gh=), And their words unto the ends of the world ( oiÎkoumeÑnh ).

I understand Ed. What you don't understand is that view has a major flaw.

You say this refers to the end of the church age which began in AD33. Correct? But Paul writing some 20 years after the Church age begins, says this:

I Cor 10:11Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

End of what ages Ed? According to you the Church age started 20 years prior to this writing, now we have an end.


Now Hank perhaps you can answer this question along with the others Ed could not:


If this is literal:
“there was a great earthquake... and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth...
1. how can stars fall to the earth? Since one star would completely cover and destroy it.

2. Why did Jesus tell the disciples to leave Judea:

Luke 21:21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Why does it matter if you leave Judea, one star will take out the whole planet. Not only Judea but London, Sydney and Kalamazoo. Will Pella or another Middle-eastern city be safe from this global inferno?

 

OK. Let me jump in for a minute that is about all I have right now.

Stars? Could easily describe an asteroid that would cause significant damage, but leave 2/3 of the people alive. This is well documented from several key "impact" sites.

"leave Judea" did deal specifically with the destruction of Jerusalem, which Matthew did not address. Luke answers the "when shall these things be" as relates to "not one stone left on top of another". Matthew does not address this aspect.

Now one for you...

Luke 22:27 "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

How does redemption fit with AD 70? When were the "elect" gathered in AD 70? How does your view deal with Matt 23:39?

"Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

This fits into the "all things" of preterism doesn't it? When did the Jews say that in AD 70?

 

Grasshopper: "You say this refers to the end of the church age which began in AD33. Correct?

No, i'm still trying to convince you that
Matthew 24:4-14 is about the church age.
The signs in Matthew 24:4-14 show that we are
still in the church age. All these signs show up
nearly everyday in the daily newspapers,
on radio, on TV, on the internet news groups.

Grasshopper: "But Paul writing some 20 years after the Church age begins, says this:

I Cor 10:11Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come."

Your conflict is not with my brand of pretribulation
rapture/resurrection pre-millinnial Second Advent
belief but with your a-aeon, a-mill.
The church age (AKA: Gentile Age) is the ends
of the ages. The Church Age is the last age in which
Jesus does not rule the earth. The physcial Age where Jesus
rules the physical earth is the physical
Millinnial Kingdom of the Christ - coming
soon to a world near you.

 

So in conclusion, Revelation predicts
mostly mostly Global things.
(where the Antichrist is at, however,
will be local. where his army is at can
be global).

 

Stars is plural so it would have to be more than one asteroid. However your major problem is why does star now mean asteroid? Is this from the lexicons? Does it mean asteroids in other place in scripture?

Sure he does. Luke say this concerning the events of AD70:

Luke 21: 20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Matthew uses almost exactly the same words:

Matt 24: 15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Its the same event. I think even most dispies acknowledge that Matt 24 and Luke 21 speak of the same thing.

The destruction of Jerusalem was the sign that Jesus had fulfilled the OT typology of the high Priest. He had gone into the holy of holiest and now returned to show His sacrifice was accepted. Salvation was now complete and the kingdom was consumated. According to your view we still wait upon the completion of our salvation. This is where the "stages" comes into view.

The gathering of the elect from my understanding is the bringing together of the elect into the body of Christ.

John 11: 51And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; 52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.


Matthew 23:39, really not sure. But the passage is clear that those He was speaking to would be the ones to see it. I guess the "you" in your view would be future Jews who don't exist in my view.

Then Ed according to you Christ died in order to establish an evil age.

So in conclusion, Ed has proved nothing.

 

Goodness. "Falling stars" means rocks falling
from the sky -- has mean that (in languages
other than English) for over 3,000 known
years.

However, watch out for this rock mountain
in the sky: Revelation 8:11 (HCSB):

The name of the star is Wormwood,
and a third of the waters became
wormwood. So, many of the people
died from the waters, because they had been made bitter.

Grasshopper: "Then Ed according to you Christ died in order to establish an evil age."

Duh
Sounds more like you can't tell the
"Church" which Jesus died for and which is
eternal from "Church Age" which is a period
of time.