Richard Land--ELRC head

[TomVols]

Dr. Land is a first-rate scholar. Granted, he can come off a bit self-asborbed, but he is no SBC talking point reciter. He took a lot of flak for criticizing Jerry Vines's "Mohammed was a pedophile" line at the 2002 SBC.

Liberal baptists don't like him because he doesn't spout their talking points.

The ERLC has a place in SB life. We need to be informed regarding ethical and other issues that pertain to Christianity and the world.

 

[gb93433]

I'll grant you that Dr. Land can come across as a bit, shall we say, "impressed with himself." However, after having spent 4 hours a day for 10 days with him I must say that the picture being painted of him in this thread so far is not accurate. He is a highly intelligent scholarly man. Likewise, he is a rock solid conservative evangelical Southern Baptist. To attempt to paint him with a brush tainted with Nazism is simply shameful. It is laughable that such a charge would be leveled at him in light of the fact that he used the video Theologians Under Hitler to teach our class how easily the liberal German Theologians (like Kittle) of pre-Nazi Germany fell for Hitler's lies and sold out their Christianity in favor of ethnocentrism and nationalism. If you have not seen this documentary I highly reccommed that you do so.

Have you ever thought that it is quite possible that the SBC leaders are doing the same thing the Christians did in Germany as you stated. It has been my finding that what they say is often correct but their practice is much less than conservative. Just take a look at the recent Klouda case at SWBTS and the removal of the past registrar there because he cited below standard academics and they did not like it. Today we are seeing the fruit of their humility in an effort to do what they have done for several years and that is they are afraid to admit their mistakes. They have made mistakes and have tried to cover them up in an effort to create a good image. Patterson, the guru among conservatives had an addition built onto the presidents home (with the approval of the trustees) and bringing home animal trophies from other countries while people are starving in those same countries and pastors there would wish for a bicycle just so they would not have to walk for two to three hours among each church they pastor. Doesn't that kind of lifestyle remind one of the message in the book of Amos?

 

[gb93433]

Liberal baptists don't like him because he doesn't spout their talking points.

Most Baptists know little or nothing Land.

 

[gb93433]

I think little of land or his ethics and here is why. I feel he is to busy toeing the SBC line to honestly stand for religious ethics and freedom. Several years ago I sought to purchase medical insurance thru the Annuity board of the SBC. Sadly I had high blood pressure and was not approved for the coverage.

Your story is done all in the name of autonomous churches.

My past neighbor was an excellent evangelical Lutheran pastor and he had great coverage and retirement through the Lutheran organization. The SBC annuity board will take your money but not deal with insurance. Who insures the missionaries supported by CP money your church sends in?

When I was pastoring I moved to another state and got better insurance through a private insurance carrier for less then 1/2. I was told by the insurance carrier that pastors have very high insurance rates compared to the mainstream population.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Patterson...bringing home animal trophies from other countries while people are starving in those same countries...

To be fair, if Patterson is actually shooting trophy animals in Africa, then (according to what I have been told) the meat from the edible animals is often given to local villagers after the skins and heads have been removed. The meat from the animals that the locals won't eat is usually left for the lions and hyenas to finish.

But I still don't understand the attraction of killing for the sake of "sport" nor mounting an extensive collection of animals in your home or office. What does that prove? That you know how to accurately aim and fire a gun?

Big deal. Almost anyone can learn to accurately use a firearm with some training and practice.

 

[Bible-boy]

My belief is the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission needs to be have its existence questioned. I think we could be a far better steward of our resources that trying to manipulate society with politics...rather than change it with th Gospel. While I am confident that Dr. Land is an outstanding Christian (I have heard nothing to counter that idea) I question his motivations.


I feel the statement above is fair and I mostly agree with it. As to the Moderator warning I question it's necessity. First of all the opening post asked the question. "what has he (Land) done wrong" I feel that atleast in my experience he has done wrong, therefore I was simply answering the posters question with an example of dealings I have had with him. Secondly I feel that your call to limit all discussion to his view and stance on seperation is simply your view and should not be delivered quite so heavy handidly, especially after this was only part of the question asked. Thirdly In your earlier posts you gave your personal experience as to the fact that Land is a nice guy and a good instructor. Now pray tell what did that have to do with his seperation stance? And how does offering your personal opinion of the man differ from my right to point out my personal opinion. I hope it is not simply that my opinion differs from yours.
Thanks
Murph

Hello Murph,

Welcome back.:wavey: You are correct in that I shared my personal experience regarding Dr. Land. However, after reading through the thread and the posts following mine I realized that it seemed to be taking a direction that it ought not go. I attempted to head off a potential problem before it got too heated. I have no problem with us discussing the issues, but I must maintain that it ought to be done in a Christian manner that does not attempt to beat up on a man that is not here to defend his own name just because we happen to have a personal issue against him.

 

[gb93433]

To be fair, if Patterson is actually shooting trophy animals in Africa, then (according to what I have been told) the meat from the edible animals is often given to local villagers after the skins and heads have been removed. The meat from the animals that the locals won't eat is usually left for the lions and hyenas to finish.

Then let him buy the locals some guns instead of paying for a flight and a safari. Most likely the money he spent on each flight and taxidermy would provide many pastors in those countries a good salary for several years.

 

[Bible-boy]

With all due respect, that's not the way the question was defined in the original post. Certainly that is a part of it, but not all of it.

With equal respect it is my responsibility to moderate this thread and this forum and keep it from degenerating into a mud slinging contest ground. The best way to ensure that civil discussion and debate flows is to keep the thread focused on issues and not on persons, personalities, or personal disagreements.

I haven't seen any bashing.

Attempting to associate a public figure with a facet of Nazism based on nothing more than a “My friend said that someone said…” pretty much falls in line with bashing the man's character (particularly when there is plenty of primary source material on record from that public figure, but we don’t even attempt to quote those primary sources and rely solely on hearsay and gossip to make a point).

And will we also hold this standard when people like Leon McBeth, Rick Warren, or Brian McLaren are discussed in this forum, or is it simply for those who hold to a certain set of religious, political and social beliefs?

It is a standard that I always attempt to uphold. If you see threads involving the above noted men being discussed and they are being bashed based on nothing more than personal dislike for them or the fact that they happen to be the messengers supporting an issue hit the “Report Bad Post” icon and I’ll investigate the matter. There is no way that I can read every post of every thread in the fora that I moderate. We (the Moderators) rely heavily on the BB members to report problem posts.

Well I don’t have time to slog through all of the ERLC’s position papers today, but let me ask you a question:

Do you think that Richard Land’s views on church and state are congruent with Roger Williams’ views?

It would seem that if you don’t have time to do a bit of research to make your case before you enter into a debate you don’t have time to discuss the issue in the first place. I really don’t want to do the research for you. So I’ll refrain from addressing your question until you first honor my previous request for you to provide some direct quotes from Dr. Land’s published material that would support your claims that he has departed from the traditional Baptist position on the separation of church and state issue.

In other words, he supports taking tax monies (that are received through threat of force, seizure and imprisonment) from people who do not have children, and giving them to parents to support Mormon, Catholic, Buddhist or Baptist schools.

The argument about “taking tax money from people that don’t have children” will not fly because their tax dollars are currently being used to support failing public schools. Likewise, every parent that would receive a “school voucher” would not elect to send their kids to a religious based school. Those who did happen to choose to do so would be sending their kids to the school of their choice so questions regarding the particular faith tradition of the school do not enter the picture.

 

[Bible-boy]

You’re presupposing that the cost of education is consistent from student to student.

Isn’t that how states currently distribute tax dollars… x amount of funding per student per school?

To the contrary, there would be many losers. Children with special needs, learning disabilities, or language skill problems would likely be barred from many of the “good” schools and would be stuck at woefully under-funded public schools. Furthermore poorer families would have a more difficult time locating a quality school for their children if the funds were absorbed by the exclusive schools.

I don’t buy that argument. Under the school voucher system if the parents/students feel that the child is not getting as good an education as they expect or desire they would be free to move to a “better” or even the best schools. Likewise, I don’t see why it seems that you are saying that all public schools would be “woefully under-funded.” If it is a quality school, with quality teachers, offering quality education, and turning out well educated, well prepared (for higher education and/or chosen career paths) then plenty of parents will elect to send their kids there. The same would hold true for schools that provide education for the special needs students you are talking about. Schools that do not live up to those expectations would not be around long at all.

Children are forced by law to go to a school (with the exception of home schoolers and certain private tutoring situations) where their officially-mandated time might be used for the expression of an Islamic prayer, a prayer to the “Blessed Virgin Mary”, a voluntary* recitation of a creed or theological principle, a voluntary* assertion that Joseph Smith, Jr. is a prophet of God, or worse.

What you have described above does not fit into the model suggested in the linked ERLC material. The ERLC says, “seeks government accommodation of each student’s right to participate in student-initiated, student-led prayer according to the dictates of individual conscience in public schools, which protects both majority and minority students’ right to pray.”

Instead, the historic Baptist viewpoint has been to avoid government entanglements in religion as much as possible to prevent government from afflicting religious faith, and religious faith from controlling the government (and those under that government who do not share the majority faith).

Are you sure about that statement? Is there any example in the history of the U.S. that you can think of where a group of Baptists sought to influence a government position or a governmental leader, but maintained that the government ought not be able to hold any influence over the local church?

Not gossip, but testimony from a credible witness who was involved in the exchange. I am repeating the evidence, which in a court of law would be considered hearsay evidence. But this is not a court and I don’t have the resources to track down all the witnesses and have them appear here in your court, with you as the judge.

Not gossip? What is it called when someone repeats what someone else said about another person, particularly when what is being said paints an individual in a bad or negative light? I am no judge and I am no lawyer, but I am a moderator of this forum. In this forum I would have no problem if you were to tell me that you personally sat in a class and heard Dr. Land say something. As you point out this is not a court of law so why attempt to treat it as such? I don’t expect you to behave as if you were in a court of law with me acting as a judge. However, I do expect us to behave as brothers in Christ and discuss issues without resorting to gossip (hearsay) based on nothing more than “so and so said that what’s his name said X.”

You’re the one who is oversimplifying... For several years before they were murdered, there was a systematic campaign to dehumanize handicapped people, homosexuals, Roma (Gypsies), Eastern Europeans, Jews, and many other groups by using terms such as “defectives”, “vermin”, and “parasites.” When they enacted the Final Solution, the populous was generally ready to accept it since they had been subject to a steady diet of that rhetoric. And that’s where the similarity is. Richard Land’s use of the word “defectives” dehumanizes those with handicaps and makes them easier to ignore, dismiss and mistreat. (Just like his use of the word “liberal.”)

Okay, so we have both oversimplified what the Nazis did in an attempt to get to the point (and assumed that most folks reading this know a bit of the history already). However, it goes deeper than just the fact that the Nazis dehumanized the people that they wanted to rid from society. You must ask how they were able to dehumanize certain people living in one of the most well educated, technologically advanced, European Christian nations of the day? Why did masses of German Lutherans accept and even embrace such anti-Christian dehumanizing behavior? The answers to these questions are clearly displayed in the documentary Theologians Under Hitler. The renowned Theologian and Christian scholar, Gerhard Kittle, is the one who came up with the “Final Solution!” Likewise, we must ask how it was that some Christian Theologians (like Bonhoeffer) were able to see what was happening and join the resistance. I would place Dr. Land in the Bonhoeffer camp rather than the Kittle camp any day.

 

[gb93433]

I don’t buy that argument. Under the school voucher system if the parents/students feel that the child is not getting as good an education as they expect or desire they would be free to move to a “better” or even the best schools. Likewise, I don’t see why it seems that you are saying that all public schools would be “woefully under-funded.” If it is a quality school, with quality teachers, offering quality education, and turning out well educated, well prepared (for higher education and/or chosen career paths) then plenty of parents will elect to send their kids there. The same would hold true for schools that provide education for the special needs students you are talking about. Schools that do not live up to those expectations would not be around long at all.

Theoretically all that sounds good. Money talks. When schools can get more students and spend less they have more money left over. With a voucher system and many more students applying than space available the school could determine its own criteria for admittance. It could require that students take tests such as what colleges require. Special education students, those in lab classes and vocational areas require more money than regular classes. Large schools are cheaper to run than small country schools with just a few students when they are bussed in for the week and then return home on the weekend.

How many Christian schools are you aware of that teach vocational education?

 

[Bible-boy]

Theoretically all that sounds good. Money talks. When schools can get more students and spend less they have more money left over. With a voucher system and many more students applying than space available the school could determine its own criteria for admittance. It could require that students take tests such as what colleges require. Special education students, those in lab classes and vocational areas require more money than regular classes. Large schools are cheaper to run than small country schools with just a few students when they are bussed in for the week and then return home on the weekend.

How many Christian schools are you aware of that teach vocational education?

I don't know of any. However, there are plenty of public schools that teach vocational ed. Under a voucher system so long as those schools continue to turn out well educated/prepared kids plenty of parents, whose kids do not plan on going to college, would send their kids there.

 

[gb93433]

I don't know of any. However, there are plenty of public schools that teach vocational ed. Under a voucher system so long as those schools continue to turn out well educated/prepared kids plenty of parents, whose kids do not plan on going to college, would send their kids there.

Over the years I have seen a serious decline in the sciences, engineering, and technological areas. Now we are bringing professors from China to teach our children in thsoe areas. Because of a serious shortage of professors to teach in the sciences, math and technology areas it is good for me because starting professors make at least 10K more than those in the non-sciences and engineering.

It is cheaper to teach classes like English than the sciences and vocational education. America has sought to go the cheap route and is beginning to pay a price for it. Its capitalism has gotten in the way of educating its people and doing what is best for the homeland. America is all about economics and business ratyher than educating its citizens. Recently it dropped from number one to number 14 among other nations in its education. While other nations have been climbing, America has been all about big business.

When the number one major in America is accounting we have a serious problem. People spend more time imitating Donald Trump than in the sciences.