Richard Rohr’s explanation of the Trinity

[MrW]

From gotquestions.org:

Related to Process Theology, panentheism is essentially a combination of theism (God is the supreme being) and pantheism (God is everything). While pantheism says that God and the universe are coextensive, panentheism claims that God is greater than the universe and that the universe is contained within God. Panentheism holds that God is the “supreme effect” of the universe. God is everything in the universe, but God also is greater than the universe. Events and changes in the universe affect and change God. As the universe grows and learns, God also increases in knowledge and being.

Panentheism is most definitely not biblical. In fact, it is extreme heresy that impugns the character of God and makes Him more like a man. God is present everywhere (Psalm 139:7-8), but God is not everything. God knows everything, whether actual or possible (Psalm 139:1-6; Romans 11:33-35). God does not learn because He already has all knowledge. God is “affected” by things that occur in the universe, but only in that sin angers Him and holiness pleases Him. Our actions do not change God or impact His essential being.

The Bible presents God as holy (Isaiah 6:3; Revelation 4:8), sovereign (1 Chronicles 29:11; Nehemiah 9:6; Psalm 83:18; Isaiah 37:20), omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-10), omniscient (Job 28:24; Psalm 147:4-5), omnipotent (Job 42:1-2), self-existent (Exodus 3:14; Psalm 36:9), eternal (Psalm 90:2; Habakkuk 1:12), immutable (Psalm 33:11; James 1:17), perfect (Deuteronomy 32:3-4), and infinite (Job 5:9; 9:10). None of these attributes are compatible with panentheism. God transcends all of His creation, and is in no sense limited or changed by events in His creation.

 

[Walter]

If you move back to an Eastern Right Church Walter I believe you won’t have these Emergent Church nonsense to deal with and you could still practice universal Catholism… just a suggestion mind you.

I'm in the same situation that you are with no local Primitive Baptist near you. The closest Easter Rite Catholic Church is in Eugene Oregon, which is a schlep.

 

[Christina1]

From gotquestions.org:

Related to Process Theology, panentheism is essentially a combination of theism (God is the supreme being) and pantheism (God is everything). While pantheism says that God and the universe are coextensive, panentheism claims that God is greater than the universe and that the universe is contained within God. Panentheism holds that God is the “supreme effect” of the universe. God is everything in the universe, but God also is greater than the universe. Events and changes in the universe affect and change God. As the universe grows and learns, God also increases in knowledge and being.

Panentheism is most definitely not biblical. In fact, it is extreme heresy that impugns the character of God and makes Him more like a man. God is present everywhere (Psalm 139:7-8), but God is not everything. God knows everything, whether actual or possible (Psalm 139:1-6; Romans 11:33-35). God does not learn because He already has all knowledge. God is “affected” by things that occur in the universe, but only in that sin angers Him and holiness pleases Him. Our actions do not change God or impact His essential being.

The Bible presents God as holy (Isaiah 6:3; Revelation 4:8), sovereign (1 Chronicles 29:11; Nehemiah 9:6; Psalm 83:18; Isaiah 37:20), omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-10), omniscient (Job 28:24; Psalm 147:4-5), omnipotent (Job 42:1-2), self-existent (Exodus 3:14; Psalm 36:9), eternal (Psalm 90:2; Habakkuk 1:12), immutable (Psalm 33:11; James 1:17), perfect (Deuteronomy 32:3-4), and infinite (Job 5:9; 9:10). None of these attributes are compatible with panentheism. God transcends all of His creation, and is in no sense limited or changed by events in His creation.

Needless to say I disagree with gotquestions.org. They have a very limited view of what Christianity is.

Yes. Panentheism is monotheism plus pantheism.

Pantheism is basically spiritualized atheism/materialism that claims God is equivalent to the physical universe and that the universe is equivalent to God. While true, pantheism does not go deep enough into the true nature of God.

Monotheism is belief in one God in the form of a supreme being. While it's true that God is one, this limits the variety of manifest forms that God can take if God so chooses.

I would argue that neither monotheism nor pantheism alone is sufficient for the Christian. And where there is a need our loving God provides a solution: enter panentheism.

I find it extremely strange that so many Christians are opposed to a panentheistic theology, precisely because the Trinitarian doctrine that so many of our brethren adhere to flourishes best in such a theology.

There is a zero percent chance of me ever believing in the Trinity if I was a pantheist or a monotheist.

But if our God is a panentheistic God, then all things are possible. God is truly free and limitless in such a theology. So, if I was to argue for the Trinity then I would build that doctrine on the theological foundation of panentheism. And then I would scour through the Bible for any reference about the nature of God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

Without panentheism, you don't have any ground for the Trinity.

 

[Christina1]

John 14:6, ". . . Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. . . ."

1 Timothy 2:5, ". . . For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; . . ."

Revelation 1:17-18, ". . . And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. . . ."

Isaiah 44:6, ". . . Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. . . ."

Isaiah 43:11, "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour."

These verses could be used to argue for the unity between God and Christ, the Father and the Son.

 

[37818]

These verses could be used to argue for the unity between God and Christ, the Father and the Son.

They are the very same God. But not the same Persons.
John 4:21-24, ". . . Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet atJerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. . . ."

Romans 8:9, ". . . But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. . . ."

Romans 8:16, ". . . The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: . . ."

Now the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit Himself are different Persons. But the same God in John 4;24, ". . . God is a Spirit: . . ."

 

[37818]

God is omnipresent, Acts of the Apostles 17:28, ". . . For in him we live, and move, and have our being; . . . " Richard Rohr cited this.

The Russian icon depicting the Trinity is worse than his Santa God example.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'm in the same situation that you are with no local Primitive Baptist near you. The closest Easter Rite Catholic Church is in Eugene Oregon, which is a schlep.

Yes but I plan to move and since I’m retired, well I should make a effort.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

God is omnipresent, Acts of the Apostles 17:28, ". . . For in him we live, and move, and have our being; . . . " Richard Rohr cited this.

The Russian icon depicting the Trinity is worse than his Santa God example.

Rohr has written books and given seminars on the Enigram, kinda a Meyers Briggs personality test.

 

[37818]

The . . . us . . . .

Genesis 1:26, ". . . Let us make man in our image . . . .

Genesis 3:22, ". . . the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil . . . .

Genesis 11:7, ". . . let us go down, and there confound their language . . . ."

Isaiah 6:8, ". . . Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? . . ."

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Neither pantheism not panentheism have any place in Christianity.

pantheism

1. A doctrine identifying the Deity with the universe and its phenomena.
2. Belief in and worship of all gods.
3. The worship of all the gods.

panentheism

1. The principle or belief that all things are contained in God.
2. A doctrine that the universe is part of God, but that God nevertheless transcends or has some existence separate from the universe.
3. A belief in all gods.

Also expressed as God is in all things. Scripture shows us God exists without His creation.

Oh boy, a belief in all gods!?! We are not speaking then of Christianity. Does Rohr suggest, if so I must have missed it!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Rohr has written books and given seminars on the Enigram, kinda a Meyers Briggs personality test.

Enneagram… btw I score as a #8.

 

[MrW]

Oh boy, a belief in all gods!?! We are not speaking then of Christianity. Does Rohr suggest, if so I must have missed it!

No, that is Christina1’s belief system.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No, that is Christina1’s belief system.

Now how does that formulate? No conservative church would entertain this thinking.

 

[MrW]

Now how does that formulate? No conservative church would entertain this thinking.

*****
It does not formulate into Christianity.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Hmmm, so Cristina where is this coming from? You say you can fit in the Trinity but appears your attempting to fit it in with panentheism…kindly show me where because I’m not seeing it.

Thanks

 

[Christina1]

Oh boy, a belief in all gods!?! We are not speaking then of Christianity. Does Rohr suggest, if so I must have missed it!

No. That's not the correct definition. Belief in all god's is not how either of those words are usually defined.

Rohr is a panentheist. NOT a pantheist. There's a huge difference.

 

[Christina1]

Now how does that formulate? No conservative church would entertain this thinking.

It's very unfortunate really, because mystics have so much to offer the church. The progressive churches are so married to their leftwing political ideology and the conservative churches are so married to their strict doctrinal thinking that people like me have a difficult time finding our role. Many of us go to our graves never having truly contributed to the Body of Christ using our unique gifts. I think two hundred years from now things will be very different.

 

[Christina1]

Hmmm, so Cristina where is this coming from? You say you can fit in the Trinity but appears your attempting to fit it in with panentheism…kindly show me where because I’m not seeing it.

Thanks

There are two ways to go about this. I can show you what I would do or you can show me what you would do and where you're stuck and I can help you get unstuck. Which would you prefer?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No. That's not the correct definition. Belief in all god's is not how either of those words are usually defined.

Rohr is a panentheist. NOT a pantheist. There's a huge difference.

So how does the RCC evaluate that?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It's very unfortunate really, because mystics have so much to offer the church. The progressive churches are so married to their leftwing political ideology and the conservative churches are so married to their strict doctrinal thinking that people like me have a difficult time finding our role. Many of us go to our graves never having truly contributed to the Body of Christ using our unique gifts. I think two hundred years from now things will be very different.

There are branches that are contemplatives like the Monks (see any group), then there are the Eastern Christian’s. I’ve family who go to Greek & Orthodox churches who are contemplative. They are true mystics.