Rick Warren on the condition of man...

I guess I missed that question...I haven't been able to post much lately....I'll go back and read again....

But,I will try to answer you. I believe the church is to glorify God,first...I believe church is for believers to meet to be equipped to go *out* and share Christ,by living a godly set apart life,and also by verbally giving an account of the gospel(Rom. 1:16-17). I also see scripture to teach that when a church body meets,they are to have preaching,fellowshipping,worshipping,etc. Evangelism should be taking place in everyone's everday lives as a result of their faith and meeting together to be equipped. When a service becomes evangelsitic in nature,the seekers become the focus,not equipping the believers to live holy lives....they are just trying to convince the lost to come aboard....everything is out of sync when this is the focus.

I did mention our church having an evangelsitic service(I guess that is what you would call it). We had John Blanchard speak on his new Book,"Does God believe in Atheist" and we were encouraged to bring any known atheist or unbleievers to this special meeting. It was NOT a worship service...it was a way to share Truth. But,Our services(REGULAR) are not evangelsitic,although the gospel is clearly expounded on in almost every service. If there is someone there seeking,we hope they can learn and get some answers,but we stay biblical in our focus and trust the sovereignty of God to do the work of salvation.

Does that help?

 

I have struggled with the evangelistic versus teaching ministries of churches before as well. Most of the churhes I've been to tend to have more evangelistic services Sunday morning, complete with an altar call. Sunday evening and midweek services tend to be more teaching, and usually don't have an altar call.

Of course, these are traditional churches. If evangelism is to be avoided in church services, I suppose the altar call should be done away with. Probably the only invitation would be for new members to join.

Maybe your experiences differ from mine, but the pattern of the churches I've attended virtually always provides an altar call for people to commit their lives to Christ.

(I may not be around for a few days - we've been caught up in the great ice storm in North Carolina, and we still don't have electricity at home. I'll be back when I can to read further posts. )

 

We do not have an altar call in our services,but we have a couseling room for anyone to meet with elders and discuss their salvation,church memebership classes,or prayer request,problems,etc...where biblical counseling can take place. The couseling room is always explained to the people,so that anyone can go after a service,if needed.

 

That is a really good idea. Do you attend an Independent Fundament Baptist Church? EDIT: Sorry, should've looked at your profile first :EDIT

By the way, I agree with what you said about the church being a place of worship, fellowship, and the place to be equipped to evangelize. I'll have to remember the "counselling room" if the Lord ever lets me pastor a church (I'm presently a pit, preacher in training, or preacher boy although I'm 26 years old).

[ December 06, 2002, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: refreshed ]

 

Hi,Refreshed! Good to have you here!

I really like the no altar call...it takes the emphasis off of *making a decision for Christ* and *saying a prayer* mentality that so many churches have. But,there is always wise biblical counseling to help with any of these issues.

Our church is very careful to make sure people are believers before allowing them to be members,which I think is very wise. They want anyone seeking after Christ,to make sure they understand the gospel,their sin,their need for a saviour and what *true* repentance is. The counseling takes care of those issues. The gospel is clearly explained during those couseling times. But,the emphasis is on God doing the work of salvation...not the church doing it,so they are very cautious,as well.

 

Guess what Molly? Your "no altar call" practice is right in line with many purpose-driven churches and other contemporary church models. Again you reveal your own misunderstanding of such churches as being primarily concerned with "quick decisions."

I find your above quote a bit ironic. You end by suggesting the emphasis is on "God doing the work of salvation", yet a person goes through an extensive counseling session prior to salvation to make sure they "understand": a) the gospel, b) their sin, c) their need for a Savior, and d) what true repentance is. A bit ironic that a church with so much emphasis on God doing the work of salvation is also so careful to make sure all of these elements are explained and that a person is a real believer before they become a member.

BTW, I agree with personal counseling prior to salvation. We have the exact same practice. I just find it a bit humorous for people to talk about God doing the work of salvation and then the 9-step process we create in order to make sure a person truly "understands" what he/she is doing. It seems to be a positive process but it is a practice foreign to the NT. How do you explain using a method that is not found in the NT?

Consistency is so difficult in the world of dogma.

 

I believe it is because we want a clear understanding of the gospel for other who are seeking God,clear and direct in sharing it and understandable to who hears it...it is not a nine step program.

Also,God does the work of salvation,we just feel the need to proclaim the gospel clearly,sometimes in lengthy couseling sessions,so that there is understanding...the reason for this is that there are so many easy beleievism and just say a prayer kind of services,that we feel the need to elaborate on it. It does not take away from God drawing them to himself,if anything,I think it makes them think more seriously about their lives,their sin and the serioussness of God. God does the work in their hearts,we can only be obedient to teach it accurately,while showing them the love of Christ and the sacrifice He made on their/our behalf.

Biblical counseling(which is all it is) has been around for years...Paul did it to many churches and taught us how to instruct those who need it. The key is that we are committed to doing it,and we are responsible to do it correctly.

 

Molly:

I am not even going to pretend that you will see the irony in your own words. But I will try nonetheless.

God is the author of salvation ... we want a clear understanding of the gospel for other who are seeking God.

Irony

The highlighted quotes again reveal the irony of your reasoning.

In order to avoid "easy believism" or "quick decisions", you attempt to help people "understand" a series of doctrinal issues regarding salvation. There is an innate danger of falling into the same trap you are seeking to avoid (merely on the opposite end of the spectrum).

Again we practice a similar method in dealing with seekers. I am not criticizing the method per se. I am just encouraging you to recognize the irony of your reasoning. Admit it or not, you are employing a method that is not articulated in the NT model.

 

Maybe I am just dense,but I do not get your reasoning. We are to be obedient to share Christ and the gospel clearly and accurately,God does the convicting of hearts to turn from sin,etc....

What are you saying? I'm lost!

 

I will try and simplify it.

Sometimes those who claim to emphasize God is the author of salvation are the same ones who want to make sure that anyone who shows an interest in spiritual things are led through an extensive counseling session (or several sessions) in order to make sure that person "understands" what he or she is doing.

What I find in the NT message of salvation is a basic gospel that demands a foundational belief in Jesus as Savior (thru faith and repentance of course). We are often so concerned with a person "understanding" what true repentance is, what salvation is, what faith is, etc. that a commitment to Christ is preceded by a mini-theology lesson on soteriology.

We condemn "easy believism" and yet we fall prey to the same temptation in a differing fashion. We tend to put such requirements upon what a person must understand in order to become a believer that salvation is no longer a work of God but an adherence to a certain set of prescribed beliefs.

Saying a person can only come to Christ if God draws him/her does not translate into "God alone is the author of salvation." In other words, few people on either side of the debate will argue against the divine initiative in salvation. I know of very few people who would not agree that God is the author of salvation.

But there is an innate danger on both ends of the spectrum here. Some will attempt to get people to simply repeat a formula in order to add to their numbers list. But on the other end of the spectrum are those who are so concerned with easy believism that they place unwarranted "knowledge" requirements upon the commitment to Christ.

On a side note, this same group often maintains that the depraved mind of an unbeliever cannot grasp spiritual truth, so how can one truly understand the essence of biblical repentance and at the same time have a depraved mind that is incapable of understanding spiritual truth? Again, that is part of the irony.

In the end, I believe sitting down face-to-face with someone to talk with him/her about what a commitment to Christ means is a wise decision. But you need to be aware that such methods are just that--they are methods. They differ from Finney's altar call method, but they are methods nonetheless.

If salvation is truly a work of God, people are not always going to have the cut-and-dry theological answers about what it means to be a follower of Christ (remember they are depraved). What we must emphasize is the fact that being a follower of Jesus Christ is about a God-initiated relationship. It is about recognizing that I cannot earn God's favor on my own merit (a sinner cannot have a relationship with a holy God), therefore I must trust in someone else and that other person is Jesus Christ. And it is through a relationship with Jesus Christ, that I can know, love, and obey God.

 

Those are basically the things that are stresssed in our counselings sessions....How is that irony of Rick Warren's methods of community center church?

 

Galatians chapter 5 verse 15.

 

Gwyneth,it is okay...we are just discussing it...SBC and I are fine with one another,in fact the discussion is very interesting to me. The whole church growth movement is a topic I have studied a lot on and I enjoy discussing it with others,even if we disagree....no problem here!

But,thanks for the reminder and verse...things get way too personal on some of these heated topics....

[ December 09, 2002, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: Molly ]

 

I am not sure what you are asking here. As I have stated repeatedly, Saddleback has the proper methods in place to "explain" the gospel to a seeker.