Rick Warren opposes fundamentalism

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Ron Arndt:
It depends on how you USE that money? For most of the wealthy, money is an OBSESSION and most of the time an obsession with wanting to make MORE money. Where your heart is, there also will be your treasure. Did you ever read the story of Philip Carey? He was quite wealthy. He gave it all up and devoted the remainder of his life to become a missionary. Think about it.

Some of the greediest people I have met are poor. They want but cannot have.

I know a very wealthy man who made more and more money in his business. As he made more and more money he supported more and more misisonaries full time.

 

[IveyLeaguer]

This article goes right to the heart of this thread.

RICK WARREN DENIES FUNDAMENTALISM

 

[Paul33]

No doubt Warren's comments on fundamentalism for the radio interview were absurd.

However, his clarification make perfect sense. There is a large group of people who go under the banner of "fundamentalism" who advocate the keeping of rules and the separating of people to be their highest goal in life.

It is that distortion of fundamentalism that every Bible-believing Christian should reject.

Warren attempted to do that in a very poor, ignorant way.

 

[Paul33]

Originally posted by Ron Arndt:
Dr Bob

You may not admit you are dispensational. but in reality you are. Do you believe there was an old covenant? And do you believe there is now a new covenant? Well, if that is the case, than the groups of people who live under those two covenants are living in two different dispensations are they not? And who would that be Dr Bob, if not Israel and the church of Christ?

The bible is VERY clear that God has dealt with Israel and is now dealing with Christ's body the church. To deny this, is to deny both the old and new testaments of the bible.

True Israel is in the Church! Yes, two covenants. Ironically, both made with Israel. The Gentile believers are grafted in. We are wild branches! We participate in the promises given to Israel.

The Bible is clear that the two covenants apply directly to ISRAEL!!!!!!!!!!!11

 

[IveyLeaguer]

Originally posted by Paul33:

There is a large group of people who go under the banner of "fundamentalism" who advocate the keeping of rules and the separating of people to be their highest goal in life ... It is that distortion of fundamentalism that every Bible-believing Christian should reject.

If I understand what you mean, I would agree - I reject legalism 100%.

FWIW, I don't think fundamentalism, as a term or label only, is of much value any longer. It has been successfully transformed to mean something other than what it really is. Most people understand it to be what Warren hinted at in the article, which I would reject also.

But make no mistake, even though dominionists like Warren successfully group together and characterize fundamentalists as legalistic hillbillies, he is absolutely targeting what was considered mainstream Christianity only a decade or two ago. And he, like many others, wants to DO AWAY with it.

What Warren professes publicly, in terms of fundamentalism, and what he actually believes are two different things. His declaration against fundamentalism was much more than a poor, ignorant response. Having watched Warren, Hybels, McLaren, et.al., for some 3 years now, I have no doubt that they absolutely despise what should be considered mainstream, biblical Christianity - the Christianity of people like Jonathan Edwards, Spurgeon, A.W.Tozer, D.L.Moody, Oswald Chambers, and many others revered on this board - they just refuse to admit it publicly, at least for now.

But it's coming out. With each progressive success, mainstream Christianity is progressively dumbed down, the kingdom-building dominionist leaders become bolder, another layer of sheepskin comes off, and more of the agenda is exposed.

It is the hope and prayer here that Christians will educate and prepare themselves and their families, lest they be swept away by the prevailing group synthesis.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by IveyLeaguer:
But make no mistake, even though dominionists like Warren successfully group together and characterize fundamentalists as legalistic hillbillies, he is absolutely targeting what was considered mainstream Christianity only a decade or two ago.

On what basis do you see Warren as a dominionist?

Cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominionism

Some of the hubs of dominionism are in Atlanata and Charlotte. Some of the pastors of SBC churches are leading it. It was an issue in the convention just a couple of years ago.

 

[IveyLeaguer]

Originally posted by gb93433:

On what basis do you see Warren as a dominionist? .. Some of the hubs of dominionism are in Atlanata and Charlotte. Some of the pastors of SBC churches are leading it. It was an issue in the convention just a couple of years ago.

It's a fair question, gb, and based on a cursory exam I'd have to say dominionism has evolved somewhat from Wikipedia's definition. But that is a just indication of how fast things are moving, and the terminology is controlled by the change agents.

Warren is definitely a dominionist player, so I'll try to pick it up tomorrow.

God Bless.

 

[IveyLeaguer]

IveyLeaguer:

.. But make no mistake, even though dominionists like Rick Warren successfully group together and characterize fundamentalists as legalistic hillbillies, he is absolutely targeting what was considered mainstream Christianity only a decade or two ago. And he, like many others, wants to DO AWAY with it.

gb93433:

On what basis do you see Warren as a dominionist?

gb, I'm wondering now if I should have used the term 'dominionist', since it is so broad. IMHO, both 'dominionism' and 'fundamentalism' are terms that have become so broad-based they are barely useful any longer. I didn't mean dominionist in the context of active political fundamentalism since Rick Warren is not really a fundamentalist.

I meant it more in the sense of a kingdom-building system intent on transforming the world by both transforming people and doing 'God's work' in the world. And I'm not sure how great or accurate that definition is, either, but that is the sense in which I am thinking. I am hearing the term 'dominionist' used to describe that System more than I am hearing it in the original sense lately. Yet, in a way, it incorporates the original. Maybe I can coin a phrase right here and now and call it the 'New Dominionism', or 'Neo-Dominionism'.

Also, I should point out that Rick Warren and purpose-driven are only one component of this movement (which is fast becoming a monster), but a very significant component. The links below will paint the picture, however I am not necessarily in total agreement with everything in them. [NOTE to Christians who are newcomers to this subject matter: If this reading this scares you, gives you cold chills, or makes you uncomfortable that is a very good sign - it is time to educate yourself and your families, prepare, watch, and pray].

Here's a page that describes this type of dominionsim pretty good. I recommend reading it all to get a well-rounded idea.

'Transformation' as a Tool of Implementing a Dominionst Worldview

Also, here is a brand new article which shows how Rick Warren fits into the big picture:

Dominionism and the Rise of Christian Imperialism

Godspeed.

 

[IveyLeaguer]

In another thread someone posted, "the Baptist label is all but meaningless since those with very un-baptistic beliefs find it a convenient moniker... and can freely use it."

Though this is another context, I believe there is some truth to it here and, in a way, brings this thread full-circle. The Baptist name is indeed becoming obscure though it is not so noticeable, as of yet.

As sad as that statement is, the Baptist denomination overall has very stubbornly held its biblical ground, compared with any other denomination I am aware of, even though it is fast losing that ground. Wherever I go, at least in the South, the best, and sometimes ONLY chance of finding a biblical, uncompromised church is to look for a Baptist church, often a smaller one. That is the reality of the state of the evangelical church as a whole, as a few abandoned evangelical leaders have been pointing out.

But what is even more sad than a meaningless label is to watch Baptists, having resisted for more than a century attack after attack on non-legalistic fundamentalism and its high view of scripture, being purpose-driven by the thousands from their biblical roots, mostly unawares, into a Warren-led darkness.*

Far from being fundamental, Warren is actually a theological liberal as John MacArthur pointed out in a lecture on January 24. As he said, and as many of us have pointed out the past several years, this particular line of deception runs from Norman V. Peale to Robert Schuller to Bill Hybels to Rick Warren and most recently to Brian McLaren of the Emerging Church.

Download MacArthur's Lecture HERE

There is some degree of New Age blended in with all these forms of liberalism and the systems they deploy, and that element is increasing and will continue to increase. But what makes Rick Warren and Purpose-Driven seem different and makes it so difficult to discern is its clever disguise. It is, in fact, brilliantly cloaked in conservative bibliology. I've said before I believe it to be the greatest deception of the church age, at least since the Reformation, and I since have heard that MacArthur and others say essentially the same thing.

No Christian should feel bad, in the least, about being taken in by 'The Purpose-Driven Life', and I mean that. Had the Lord not sovereignly showed it to me at the point where I had barely heard of it, I probably would have never seen it myself. FWIW, it took me a whole year full-time to prove what He showed me, even then.

After more than 3 years of research, I am confident that the work of the Holy Spirit, at this present time, is the calling out of a remnant people unto Himself, the true Church of God, who will remain true to the scriptures and abide in Him. I also think that this remnant will be abandoned and persecuted by religious people and the great majority of professed Christians, who will progressively fall deeper and deeper into error. The signs of this are everywhere.

This is the time to examine ourselves before God, to prove ourselves, to watch, and pray always that we may be "accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

God's kingdom is coming, but it's His kingdom, not ours.

"Thy kingdom come".


* The links above, on this page, are enough to paint the picture of where Warren is taking his 'transformed' converts.