Rick Warren & "Resisters", Those Believers Who Refuse To Change

[Lagardo]

npetrely,

Thanks for the claification

You have a point about Warren's use of scripture. He will use several translations, always changing in order to get the wording right for his point. This is a dangerous approach to the bible.

I disagree that Warren's method as put forth in Purpose Driven Church is man-centered any more than I think it was man-centered for the Apostle Paul to teach Christ from the standpoint of a temple on an unknown God to the people of Athens. Paul was just speaking to them from where they were at, and I don't see this as man-centered because the message was Christ.

I don't think that Warren marginalizes those who diagree with him nor does he endorse it, but I believe his teaching (and for that matter any teaching of a specific church model) gets easily taken to the next logical step. In other words, Rick might tell a pastor that his church will not be able to change unless some elderly people who disagree die first. This may very well be true and is not necessarily a stance for or against the death of resistors. However, the next logical step for anyone seeking change will be to hope for and even pray for the death of these resistors. I've seen it happen.

 

[Faith alone]

Lagardo,

I agree. I am not a Rick Warren fan. I read his book The Purpose Driven Life and then asked myself, "so what's the big deal?" Nothing very exciting, new or amazing there. Sorry, but that was just my reaction - it seemed very simplistic.

I do not agree with many of his church growth principles either, but I do have lots of respect for the man. His ministries are centered on man because the gospel is supposed to reach people. He gives me something to think about and chew upon. I didn't find anything alarming about that article either.

But I do think that this appears to be somewhat a waste of time to get involved in this thread at this point, so have fun guys. I made some comments earlier and no one even batted an eye. This seems to be ingrown. That happens to threads at times.

FA

 

[IveyLeaguer]

... I think it will make me more willing to discuss my feelings of uneasiness to others around me. Maybe they too are questioning inside also, but are afraid to ask those questions vocally.

Good observation. I think there are many just as you describe. But I fear there won't be many for the very long-term. Most of the people who are uncomfortable are Christians, not new members, that's why they are uncomfortable.

On the whole the older, more mature Christians will either fight a Purpose-Driven® attack on their church or leave, they just will not tolerate unbiblical teaching or compromise their faith. But many others have been Christians for a short while or even for years but, for whatever reason, are not yet solidly anchored in the Word, and it is these brothers and sisters my heart goes out to, and for whom I want to fight over. The Purpose-Driven® machine is just too much for them to overcome without help, and they often get ravaged by the wolves.

Inherent in the fundamentals of the Purpose-Driven® system are the mechanics of the Hegelian Dialectic which manifests itself, among other ways, in group peer-pressure through consensus. The pressure is very real and few have the wherewithal to resist it. Pressure is also one of the primary purposes for requiring the signing of the 'covenant', where you agree not to confront your leaders, in the name of unity (consensus).

So, Tim, if there is someone there who you KNOW without a doubt cares as much for the truth as you do, you might explore the Purpose-Driven® machine together. If you have to go it alone, I'll help as time permits or at least point you in the right direction. Godspeed.

 

[Lagardo]

I want to add that I think any specific theological system or church model runs the risk of marginalizing those who disagree. Far too often people become more devoted to the system than to Christ and fail to see anything beyond their narrow system.

Maybe eventually, people will follow Christ and worry less about the subcategories.

As for Purpose Driven Life, it was written for a very specific audience and I would not expect a mature Christian to get much out of it. However, it has been used to bring many people into a conversation about Christ and for that, I am thankful for it.

Of course, I was once in a car wreck that the Holy Spirit used to bring someone to Christ...so that's about where I put Purpose Driven Life.

 

[Lagardo]

Inherent in the fundamentals of the Purpose-Driven® system are the mechanics of the Hegelian Dialectic which manifests itself, among other ways, in group peer-pressure through consensus. The pressure is very real and few have the wherewithal to resist it. Pressure is also one of the primary purposes for requiring the signing of the 'covenant', where you agree not to confront your leaders, in the name of unity (consensus).

I have never heard of this pressure not to confront the leaders at Saddleback but I have certainly seen (and felt...oh the pain of a a knife in the back) it at a PD-model church. Anyone else know of a specific example where this occurs?

 

[webdog]

I apologize if I wrongly associate you with webdog, as I have not yet been able to get him to honestly engage a point, but concluded some time ago that it doesn't matter - dialogue with him is fruitless.

...and the dishonesty continues...

I agree that dialogue with you is fruitless.