Righteousness without the Law is Revealed !

[savedbymercy]

It is not our believing !



It is not our believing that makes God Just to forgive our sins, nor ones confessing 1 Jn 1:9, but solely the Blood of Christ, for it was His Blood that put away the sins of the Church, even before they become Believers; Nor does it take for one to believe in Jesus, in order for Jesus to have died for them and put away their sins.

Before a modern day believer is even born a sinner, all of their sins and trespasses are already forgiven based on redemption through His Blood and for Christ's Sake. Eph 1:7

7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Eph 4:32

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Note: Forgiveness of sins is not for the sake of our believing, or repenting, but God does it for Christ's Sake ! Ps 25:11

For thy name's sake, O LORD, pardon mine iniquity; for it is great.

Isa 43:25

I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

Now this forgiveness for Christ's Sake, who is God Man, takes in the consideration of all sins, before and after New Birth, and all types of sins, of omission and comission, with all sins of the heart and thoughts, and tongue !

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Let me speak your language for my question.

It is true only Jesus can save you and there is nothing you can do of your own accord to be saved. I believe this is generally accepted. However, once you are saved is it encumbant upon you to please the God who saved you? Is it wrong to try to want to please him by doing those things he wanted you to do?

 

[The Biblicist]

The elect never had sin legally imputed to them.

Righteousness is imputed to them because they are not righteous by nature and thus it must be obtained outside of themselves. However, they have no need for sin to be imputed to them because they are sinners by nature even as others - Rom. 3:23; Eph. 2:2-3 "for ALL HAVE sinned...."

They are LEGALLY condemned by the Law or else they could not be LEGALLY called "sinners" nor could they suffer the LEGAL consequences of sin which is "death" - Rom. 6:23.

When you attempt to make the eternal purpose of God reality you repudiate the very eternal purpose of God which is INCLUSIVE of application in time and space without which there is no eternal purpose as presented in the scriptures.

According to God's eternal purpose they are already glorified in God's design but THAT IS NOT REALITY and won't be reality until they are glorified in time and space as that IS inclusive of God's eternal purpose.

Your soteriology is like the archetech saying his blue print for a house is the house already built. The human archetech may have a blue print for a house and yet the house never be built because impotence in the human archetech. However, God's blue print can be spoken of as good as built BECAUSE there is no impotence in the Divine Archetech to implement his blue print (Isa. 46:9-11; Rom. 8:28-30). However, that does not mean the blueprint is the house in either scenario.

 

[Andre]

andre

He uses the word law in general, the Law of moses is included,...

This what you need to demonstrate, so you cannot simply assume it. In my post, I provided an argument as to why mere reference to law - with no definite article and no explicit reference to Moses - can still be a reference to the Law of Moses.

The overall point being - Paul can and does use the term "law" - nomos - to denote the Law of Moses in particular.

BTW When the Law of Moses is particularly meant, it usually has the Definite Article preceding it as Here Acts 6:13

And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:

Here a general meaning of Law would not be appropriate as to what the claim was against Stephen

Not a valid argument. The fact that Paul uses the definite article in one case (when he refers to the law of Moses) is simply not grounds to conclude that he must always use the definite article to refer to the Law of Moses. Language is not that simple.

 

[savedbymercy]

bibl

Righteousness is imputed to them because they are not righteous by nature and thus it must be obtained outside of themselves

It is obtained outside of themselves, it's Imputed unto them outside of themselves. God imputes it to them at the same time He did not impute their sins to them, and when He determined to impute them on Christ. nThe non imputation of their sins against them was also Their Justification before God. Rom 8:33-34

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

That God did not Lay any Charge against the Elect, is God Justifying them, that is plain.. It had nothing to do with their faith or believing, repenting or anything.

 

[savedbymercy]

andre

The overall point being - Paul can and does use the term "law" - nomos - to denote the Law of Moses in particular.

No He doesn't, I proved that, even gave the biblical definition of the word nomos and gave you an example of when it was used particularly of the Law of moses in Acts 6, if cannot receive it, too bad, however you are accountable to what you have been shown !

 

[The Biblicist]

bibl



It is obtained outside of themselves, it's Imputed unto them outside of themselves. God imputes it to them at the same time He did not impute their sins to them, and when He determined to impute them on Christ. nThe non imputation of their sins against them was also Their Justification before God. Rom 8:33-34

You missed the whole point! You have God justifying the elect before the foundation of the world and thus the same time you say sin was not imputed to them.

Why do they need either when they have not yet sinned at all because they have not yet been born on planet earth??????? Since when do the righteous need justification and when do the righteous need sin NOT imputed to them????????

Your soteriology is an absolute oxymoronic mess.



There is absolutely no need to justify someone who has no sin

 

[savedbymercy]

bibl

There is absolutely no need to justify someone who has no sin

Thats absolute ignorance. If that is True, then Christ did not die for anyone's sins until they are born sinners

With your reasoning, if Christ is to tarry another decade, and the Elect that shall yet be born, it cannot be said that Christ died for their sins, since they have not yet sinned yet. The Death of Christ means nothing for them. Also Christ's Prayer was meaningless for those that were yet to believe on Him through the word of His Chosen Apostles Jn 17:20

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

 

[The Biblicist]

bibl



Thats absolute ignorance. If that is True, then Christ did not die for anyone's sins until they are born sinners

.

No, if they already had imputed righteousness and non-imputation of sin before the world began there would be no need for Christ to come at all and die for their sins because all they had was non-imputation of sin and why would Christ die for something never imputed to them - sin? There never were any sins to be paid for according to your eternal rationale.

How can you improve upon a people already existent before the world began who have non-imputed sin and imputed righteousness already? What could Christ ever do in time and space to improve upon that eternal condition??? Why would Christ even have to die for them? They are already righteous according to you. They are already without imputation of sin according to you? What and How could God improve upon such a condition already obtained?

Since according to you, even after they are born into this world they never come under condemnation for sin and so for whose sins would Christ be condemned to death for?

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

No, if they already had imputed righteousness and non-imputation of sin before the world began there would be no need for Christ to come at all and die for their sins

Thats False ! God before the foundation of the World counseled in a Everlasting Covenant, whereby the Son was made a Surety for the Sins of the Elect in time. So their sins that they would commit in Adam, and personally were not imputed to them, but to Christ their Surety. The Non Imputation of their sins to them was premised on the Work of Christ in Time.

Since according to you, even after they are born into this world they never come under condemnation for sin

No, not legally, how could they when Christ came under condemnation for them ? You need to mae up your mind on who God legally charged with condemnation for the sins of the elect. he charged it either to them or their Surety, which is it ?

 

[savedbymercy]

bib denial of Truth. Scripture states that all Christ died for, as their Head, have been made Righteous by the obedience of one Jesus Christ Rom 5:19b, yet he objects with this comment:

They have only been made righteous by provision not by personal application.

What does he mean by they have only been made righteous by provision ? He can only mean that they are not yet actually made righteous until they do something, which in this case is personal application.

So he denies that Christ's obedience alone made them righteous just as Adam's disobedience alone made them sinners, Then he Ad's their personal application actually makes them righteous which is their own obedience of Faith, so then the Truth of God is overturned and it becomes that by the obedience of TWO many are made Righteous, Christ's obedience and the sinners obedience ! This is a False Gospel and detracts from Christ's accomplishment of making one Righteous before God and makes it mans accomplishment by his performance !

 

[The Biblicist]

bib denial of Truth. Scripture states that all Christ died for, as their Head, have been made Righteous by the obedience of one Jesus Christ Rom 5:19b, yet he objects with this comment:

I have not been stating my position at all. I have just been showing the absurdity of your position.

You have the elect already existent and already completely saved before the world began not merely in God's Purpose but in reality. From that absurd position I simply question why bring into existence any other reality? How can God improve upon that eternal state of the elect? Why should Christ even create a world, come into the world and be condemned since you claim the elect were already justified and NEVER UNDER CONDEMNATION at any time. If that is true, then for whom does Christ suffer condemnation on the cross????? You cannot say for the elect because you have them already justified, without imputation of sin before the world began not merely by design or God's purpose but in reality.

 

[The Biblicist]

bib denial of Truth. Scripture states that all Christ died for, as their Head, have been made Righteous by the obedience of one Jesus Christ Rom 5:19b, yet he objects with this comment:

They have only been made righteous by provision not by personal application. Biblicist


What does he mean by they have only been made righteous by provision ? He can only mean that they are not yet actually made righteous until they do something, which in this case is personal application.

"until they do something"??? How about until God does something as no man "cometh to me except the Father draw him" as "this is the work of God that ye believe...." (Jn. 6:29,44) so it must be "given unto him of the Father" (Jn. 6:65).

However, you jerked my statement out of context. Just as we are elected in Christ before the world began so is Christ predestinated to make provision for the elect before the world began and both work out in time and space as God predetermined. So both are according to God's eternal purpose and both come to fruition in time and space.

What I have been rejecting and objecting to is your notion that such a REALITY already existed before the world began. If one aspect of God's purpose ALREADY EXISTED IN REALITY before the world began than EVERY ASPECT of God's purpose already existed in reality before the world began.

If we were actually and really already justfied before the world began then we were actualy and really already glorified as well, and thus Christ already suffered and died before the world began.

The truth is NONE of God's eternal purpose was a REALITY before the world began but only His DESIGN that He predestinated to be realized as a REALITY in time and space. Hence. we were born UNDER SIN and thus UNDER CONDEMNATION and thus not justified as far as REALITY and thus Christ had not suffered and died before the world began but only predestinated to do so and therefore He had to actually come and die and suffer condemnation for THE CONDEMNED! One is no more a reality before the world began than the other. If the Christ provision has to be actualized in time and space it is because it was not actualized before the world began. The same is true with every other aspect of God's eternal PURPOSE - thus all had to be actualized in time and space because it was not actualized before the world began.

If you have one aspect already actual and completed before the world began (e.g. actually justified, actually non-imputation of sin, actually imputed righteousness) then the Christ provision was already actual and completed before the world began along with every other aspect of God's eternal purpose.

You cannot select one aspect of God's Purpose and make it reality before the world began without making every aspect of God's Purpose a reality before the world began. If one aspect is not a reality before the world began than NONE of it is a reality before the world began. None of it was and that is proven in one word - "predestinated" the whole eternal purpose of God was predestinated to become reality not that it was already reality.

You treat imputed righteousness, non-imputed sin, as already existent reality before the world began and that is the basis for your argument that when the elect actually came into the world they were without condemnation ALREADY - bogus baloney!!!! True, they were that way by Divine PURPOSE but they were not that way in reality - they were born "condemned" under sin and thus subject to death.

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

"

until they do something"??? How about until God does something

God already did something in Christ's work ! They have been reconciled to God by the Death of Gods Son ! Is that something God did or NOT ?

 

[glfredrick]

bib

"

God already did something in Christ's work ! They have been reconciled to God by the Death of Gods Son ! Is that something God did or NOT ?

So, are "all persons" reconciled? Just wondering, for of late you have been arguing for universalism.

 

[savedbymercy]

glf

So, are "all persons

No..

 

[glfredrick]

glf



No..

What then sets one group of persons apart from another group if as you contend, Christ reconciled all (and as you have argued, "all" means all)?

 

[The Biblicist]

bib

"

God already did something in Christ's work ! They have been reconciled to God by the Death of Gods Son ! Is that something God did or NOT ?

Romans 8:28 identifies the eternal "purpose" of God "according to" which he works out all things purposed - Rom 8:29-30. Hence, he does ALL these things in time and space and therefore NONE of these things are done before the world began but only PURPOSED before the world began.

His provision for redemption was purposed before the world began but it was not done before the world began but had to be done in time and space.

We were glorified by Purpose before the world began but it was not done before the world began.

We were Justified by Purpose before the world began but it was not done before the world began - hence we were born condemned under sin when we came into this world and justification was done by God in time and space.

The Christ provision was by Purpose before the world began but it was not done before the world began. Christ had to actually enter into time and space and actually provide it through his life and death. What he provided was for the elect as the price paid - objective redemption of the elect.

The redemption provided by Christ FOR THE ELECT had to be applied individually to each elect so as to actually save them in time and space. The lamb was slain and offered up on the brazen altar but the blood had to be taken by the Preist and then applied to all the objects in the holy and holiest of holy (there objectively finished) and then return unto the people and bless them before redemption could be declared subjectively finished. So Christ's life and death and resurrection and ascension into the real throne (ark lid type) into heaven "obtained our redemption" by God accepting it as payment in full and from heaven it is being personally and individually applied to each elect according to God's appointed time after they are born into time and space. It's application by the Holy Spirit of God in time and space is seen in regeneration/justification and then in progressive sanctification and ultimately in glorification when He returns out of the holy of holiest in heaven to bless His people in the resurrection/rapture. This is all the work of God and all of grace.

Objectively the Purpose of God is as good as done - Rom. 8:28-30

Objectively the Purchase Price has been paid in full - Heb. 9:12

Subjectively the Personal Application is in progress - 1 Jn. 3:1-2

I have been saved according to God's Purpose before the world began - Rom.8:28-30 - all spoken of as past tense and complete.

I have been redeemed provisionally in time and space through the life, death, resurrection of Jesus Christ for the elect.

I am being redeemed subjectively in time and space according to the sanctification (setting apart) by the Holy Spirit first in regeneration/conversion/justification and then progressively redeeming the time (Eph. 5:17) and ultimately will be completely redeemed in my full person at glorification.

All that the Father has given to Christ shall come and no man can come to Christ except it were "given to him of the Father" or except he is drawn by the Father and all the Father draws shall be raised up to glorification in the last day (Jn. 6:37-40, 44-45; 64-65; Jn. 17:2).

What God did in and through Christ objectively redeems, reconciles and saves us.

What God does in and through us subjectively redeems, reconciles and saves us.

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

Romans 8:28 identifies the eternal "purpose" of God

I know that, but we are discussing Rom 5:10 which you deny. You stated, which is a lie, that those who Christ died for are not reconciled to God by the Death of Christ, while they are enemies ! You said it is not an actual reconciliation but merely a provision. Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Why do you deny the Truth ?

 

[savedbymercy]

glf

What then sets one group of persons apart from another group if as you contend

God's Purpose of Election !