Plain Old Bill
New Member
Rightly dividing means getting a correct understanding of scripture.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Rightly dividing???
- Thread starter Benjamin
- Start date
Do we see a dispensation of division or the power of God’s grace toward all men being completed through His Glory. I will figure the capitalization of “Him His” was referring to God or a typo. I think it clear that Paul said it was to fulfill the Word of God (Col 1:25) that’s not division but completeness of that which was hid, Col 1:26 and further Paul got a little ticked at the mere thought of dividing the gospel:
</font>[/QUOTE]Yes a typo referencing Paul should have been him, and not endeavoring to raise Paul to His level.
Christ is not divided. His Word is divided so as to hit its mark. On earth He says He directed His Word to His people. Can we deny that? From heaven Christ revealed to Paul he was commissioned now to be the bearer of the “good news gospel” to the Gentile and the Jew. I understand this to say this is a New gospel directed to the Gentile and the Jew. This had never before be done or heard of since God had created and divided out a people for Himself. He that is whole is able to preach to those He had previously divided. In order to bring them back together He must be able to talk to both parties. While on earth He did not do that for the Shepard came and talked to His sheep, of which we (me) were not. But today He speaks to me, and also those that He has put back with me, a Gentile. Two different gospels from the One indivisible God.
You have just brought up scripture that today “divides Christ”. This is exactly what Paul is telling us in these verses. What today divides Christ? Is it not “water baptism”? Doesn’t the Baptist separate themselves from other Christians, and it is by Baptism for others do not believe exactly as do Baptist’s. Not for our salvation, but for separation from all others in Christ. It is the same with the Catholic’s, Methodist; Lutheran, churches of Christ, et al. Every last church say and believe they are the only ones that knows why they are being baptized. Not one of them has it right. Does that render a member unsaved? Of course not, if they have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation.
Paul thanks God that he quit baptizing. He says as much in verse 14. Paul was very smart, but not smart enough to absorb all at once what Christ revealed to him. Scripture shows it had to be done over a period of time. This was unbelievably difficult for all the Jews, as from birth they had been taught to avoid the Gentile, and to live under the law with all its teachings of washings, blood sacrifices, and their other laws of ordinances adding to over 600. This had to be overwhelming.
John also came to this very important realization that the “great commission” of being “water baptized” was not necessary to the Christian. It was a divider that the “troublers” (the Judaizers) were charging the Gentile must do. Some of those of the Pentecostal church were telling the Gentiles they had to come as the Jew and be circumcised and do their religious rites. Today it is “baptism” they bring to the table, in all different forms and meanings.
Praise God the Baptist will not accept they must be baptized to be saved, but they are holding on to dividing themselves out from others in Christ.
Paul quit that practice, as did John. John will not come close to water baptism after the death of Christ in any of his writings, and skirts “repentance as used with water baptism” all together, with the exception that he is told to write in Revelation, and has to do only with to whom the book of Revelation is written. The book is written to the churches that must include their works, and that certainly is not we in the Body of Christ today, for He did all the work for us.
Please read what follows in this chapter. Paul says in 17 Christ didn’t send him to baptize (It divides Christ). The gospel of the Cross is compromised, for we separate ourselves by our baptizing. All the churches do it.
In verse 18, do we believe in the power of God? The power is in the preaching of the Cross and not in the baptizing. It is a divider of those in Christ Jesus. That was in that other gospel to the Jew for breaking their covenant with God, and crucifying their King. He is mad at them and He is coming back to deal with them in His wrath, and pity those between Him and His people in the tribulation.
Verse 21 reveals a lot upon inspection. How are we saved? We are to believe the gospel that Christ revealed to Paul. Just by this foolishness of preaching are we saved. That is it. We are not to bring baptism into the equation. But all the churches do it, for they are of John the Baptist, Apollo, Cephas, Paul, Billy Graham, Criswell, Farwell, Warren, etc.
22. The Jew requires a sign, and the rest of the world in their wisdom want to do the same as those that require a sign. But we today are told not to listen to the "troublers" that bring religious rites of the Jew.
In 23 we are to preach Christ crucified, which causes the Jew to stumble, and foolishness to the rest. Everybody wants to have the last word and add to Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved.
It’s all part of God progressively revealing His plan of salvation on one foundation; I don’t see it as separating but building on. If I build a house of bricks on top of a foundation I wouldn’t divide the bricks in the plan but put them near as to assemble them all together.
</font>[/QUOTE]Agree on the one foundation of Jesus Christ, but now you are theorizing. Scripture reveals in the Temple are two rooms, the outer larger known as the Holy Place; the smaller room called the Holy of Holies. Paul said he would not build on another mans foundation, i.e. Peter’s. This should “perk up our ears”. This has meaning and should be investigated. That means there must be another gospel on the foundation of Christ, and Paul says we Gentile’s are to build on his, Paul’s foundation.
Yes, but first Paul said he had “fully” preached the gospel of “Christ”. He won’t build upon the same foundation because he’s building another part but of the same house, one rock to build upon, one baptism consisting of faith; all did eat of the same spiritual meat, drink the same spiritual drink, faith in God’s promise of salvation by that Rock that was with them, Christ.
</font>[/QUOTE]Amen! It is of the same foundation of Christ, but we are not in the same room today as those in the Holy Place. If we be in Christ then we went where He went. He was slaughtered in the Holy of Holies, and it is though Him, coming through His blood that we may come to the Father. That is the gospel today. Our prayer cannot be directly to the Father. We must come to Him through Jesus Christ. The Jew was allowed to go directly to the Father by Jesus Christ, just a Jesus told them in the “Lord’s Prayer”. ”Our Father which art in heaven………….” Those of that gospel did not have to come to Father through Christ Jesus. Our gospel says our entree into the presence of the Father is Through Him, our Lord Jesus Christ.
We are to remember that Paul is the Apostle to the Gentile and also the Jew. Paul preached to both, by authority of Christ from heaven. The earthly Apostles said they would only preach to the circumcised. Paul here is speaking to the Jew in Corinthians. “Our fathers” referenced are the fathers of Paul and the other Jews. All through the Bible the “fathers” apply to the physical seed of Abraham.
The Bible is holding true for this goes back to a father of the Jew, Moses.
Should we not believe God? Why do we keep wanting to be under the law and ordinances and be as the Jews that rejected Messiah.
It is God that put the Gentile away, so I’d never dare say Paul is saying anything about any of my “fathers”. ”And he did that which was evil in the sight of the Lord, after the abominations of the heathen, whom the Lord cast out before the children of Israel.” No, Paul is talking here to His people.
Can’t you just see God letting the heathen eat with His people. Jesus told us in the time of the “fathers” and in His day we were not welcome at His table, or the Jews, for they gave the heathen the “scrapes”.
Jesus never offered while He walked this earth, or as the Word in heaven, the heathen that spiritual drink referenced here. There certain things He could not say, being hidden since from the beginning.
No, not with the understanding it wasn’t time for the way (John 14:6) of atonement to be revealed yet; Jesus told others on several occasions not to tell anyone for good reason.
</font>[/QUOTE]Ah! Now we are getting close to understanding why certain things could not be understood. They were hidden from man. Luke 18:34, ”And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.” All this time they were with Him, they just could not fathom what He was saying. There is a reason.
You found it. We know all of these things now, but none of the Apostles or anyone else understood anything about what was coming. That is, not until after Damascus Road. Not until then could the secret be told, and Christ from heaven told and taught it to one He chose. He chose one that hated Him the most, and prosecuted His church to the highest degree. Saul of Tarsus, the fierce Pharisee that wished to punish all that accepted the “false Messiah”, Jesus.
That which was hidden was revealed to Paul. What people fail to realize, or refuse to incorporate into their belief, are those words Jesus while on earth that we find in the gospel of John, were not brought to mind or allowed to be until circa 30 years after the death of Paul. Many scholars know this is true, and it is hard to understand how that when we first find such things as John 3:16, that it is allowed to let the world believe we find such truths first in John's Gospel. Some just fail to put 2 and 2 together, wishing to believe as the rest of the world, that probably Christ after all didn’t speak to Paul, and reveal the “grace commission” to him.
Why is that? It will not fit into the tradition of man, that there was only One Gospel. Why it is “heresy” to even think there is another gospel. That is exactly what Paul was accused of. It continues today.
In Galatians 1:11-12 we find paul saying no man gave to him or taught him Christ Jesus’ gospel from heaven. The wisdom and revelations of salvation were revealed to him by Christ from heaven.
Then we should call into witness II Peter 3:15-16, ” And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.”
Well, see the Catholics shouldn’t be dividing things like that either.
</font>[/QUOTE]Tell me what did they divide? They believe the One Gospel as taught and preached by John the Baptist.
Yes, that lines up well with the one gospel made before the foundation of the world, a promise from the Father to the Son, the Creator, that every “every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people”, will hear the good news and every knee shall bow.
</font>[/QUOTE]You are one with understanding.
Amen, great, doesn’t this show the beauty of God’s plan to have that veil removed, (2Co 3:14) But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.
</font>[/QUOTE]That is great you understand we are not to believe the “great commission, needing to repent and be baptized for the remission of our sins. Everything is all wrapped up in our believing in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation
Not anymore than you. But where they not required to make blood sacrifice? Are you required in the gospel you are saved under to do the same as they in their gospel. If not, then would you say you are saved in the Old gospel of Christ on earth, or the New gospel of Christ in heaven?
I have never said they didn’t. I contend there is more than one gospel. Hebrews 11 tells us all came to salvation by faith. That is a different gospel. As said above they could not come through the blood that had not yet been spilled. They could not be saved as we today of OSAS while they lived. It was an impossibility. They had to “hold on” to the end. They understood they would be saved, but they did not have the peace and joy that we today have as we live. We see it in their words. Can we read Psalms, the begging for “mercy”. They pray to the Lord God, but do not know His name. He has not yet come.
We are “spiritually” in the Body of Christ, and these raptured bodies, dead or alive will be Caught Up to Him in the Air. Then as John says, we will be “like Him”. This is the “good news” of the Cross that we find in the gospel that Christ from heaven gave to Paul. Peter’s Acts 2:38 is demanding carrying a requirement not yet forgiven sin of Israel of the “unpardonable sin”. They refused God the Father years before. They then refused Messiah, demanding His death, and at the stoning of Stephen a year after Pentecost, they removed themselves from the saving blood of Christ, committing sin unto death. One, two, three you are out. They refused the Holy Ghost. But God will yet save them if they will “repent of their unbelief, and be baptized for the remission of their sins.
You can search scripture, but you’ll not find where any Gentile was ever preached the gospel of John the Baptist. John the Baptist didn’t, Jesus didn’t; Peter, John or any other Apostle didn’t. In Acts 10 God would not let Peter do it, and afterwards they shook hands with Paul and Barnabas that they would go only to the circumcised.
Was the gospel the same of Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation. In all of scripture from beginning to end, of course taking out the Grace of God that came down from heaven and returns, man was required to do a work. Was not blood sacrifice immediately done after the fall. Wasn’t man informed to sacrifice? Adam passed this required work on of every one in the flesh that it was to be done in the fear and for the glory of the Lord. Abel obeyed and Cain rebelled. The first thing that Noah did was offer blood sacrifices, and was to continue by every living being,and in by Israel it was done even until the destruction in A.D. 70 of Jerusalem and the Temple. But can you find in Our Gospel, where we are ever to make “blood sacrifice”. We are the only one’s in the history of this world that will not be required to do so for we are in the one that sacrificed himself for us. Those in the tribulation will have to do this also.
Why in the world do we Christians today wish to think there is only one gospel, and we want to be like them. By their fall, we have entered, but we do not enter as they.
Christian faith, ituttut
I am rather close to agreement with you on several issues but apparently came to look at the big picture of the gospel differently. For example, I interpret in this scripture that Paul is displeased that some would divide Christ and perceive you interpreting it to be a reason why we should. I never really thought about all the different denominations separating themselves by in the way they baptize as they all attach so much other doctrinal necessities to believe in so that you fit in. Herein seems to create the problems concerning manmade divisions which results in dividing Christ (The Word) to make their systems fit while they add and subtract from the truth to accomplish these goals.
I think Romans 3:25-30 tells us where the mercy seat of God is for all.
(Gal 3:7) Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
(Rom 3:30) Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
That is my point, it was His glorious hidden plan from the beginning and all were included in it, saved by Christ the Rock, welcomed to the table to eat and drink as it was the plan from the foundation of the world.
No doubt that is why I went to 1Cor 2.
I don’t know where to even start with you on this; I understood by the gospel that I was saved by faith alone, never believed I had to be baptized or follow any mans rules to be justified and I learned the truth through the Word of the whole gospel with the guidance of the HS before I ever met a Pauline dispensational Baptist or understood why the gospel was revealed in the way it was. What also continues today is that men want to add their traditions to the truth.
So they didn’t take the whole completed gospel into account, they divided it to suit their theism.
I was saved by faith brought in the Word through the Spirit of God’s grace of the completed gospel. They were saved by faith in the Word by the Spirit of God’s grace of the gospel message that was revealed to them up to that point.
I know we disagree here. I contend that there is one gospel with different messages and all were saved by faith by believing what they were told to believe in and all were justified by Jesus Christ in the end by the completed gospel which was the plan form the beginning.
That’s because it was hid for later.
I’m not arguing with you that the gospel message all had to believe in hasn’t changed through the times, but these people were not saved by the blood sacrifices, they were saved by faith alone in the Grace of God. They just didn’t have the full gospel revealed to them yet.
So you don’t think God knew they were going to fall in the first place? Why did God have the good news planned for us from the foundation of the world? Isn’t it that from the beginning God had planned a propitiation for the sins of all men.
I am rather close to agreement with you on several issues but apparently came to look at the big picture of the gospel differently. For example, I interpret in this scripture that Paul is displeased that some would divide Christ and perceive you interpreting it to be a reason why we should. I never really thought about all the different denominations separating themselves by in the way they baptize as they all attach so much other doctrinal necessities to believe in so that you fit in. Herein seems to create the problems concerning manmade divisions which results in dividing Christ (The Word) to make their systems fit while they add and subtract from the truth to accomplish these goals.
</font>[/QUOTE] Whatever divides Christ’s Church should not. Then again we are not all placed in the same place in His Church.
I think Romans 3:25-30 tells us where the mercy seat of God is for all.
</font>[/QUOTE]In God’s division’s He brings back together, and we in Christ are brought in. ”And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all",I Corinthians 15:28
(Gal 3:7) Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
(Rom 3:30) Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Does this prove my point? Galatians 3:7 is Spiritual, not earthly Israel. Romans 3:30 informs the Spiritual comes Through faith. I Corinthians 10:4 speaks to earthly Israel, His people. The Fathers are of Israel, and Moses mentioned by name in preceding verses. We today are not Israel.
That is my point, it was His glorious hidden plan from the beginning and all were included in it, saved by Christ the Rock, welcomed to the table to eat and drink as it was the plan from the foundation of the world.
</font>[/QUOTE]Then if you are saying you agree New information became available when Christ spoke to Paul, then you must agree there is a New gospel for the Old gospel did not allow for this. We find New people will be included.
I believe as you that God knew all of this before hand. Until Christ revealed a Gospel differently to Paul, than what had been before presented, no one knew about it. Think how discouraging this would have been to His Nation, knowing we dogs whom they were told to avoid would not even have to be under the ordinances of Moses’ Law, and just depend on the “works of Jesus”.
I believe another reason no “princes of the world” were to know what God hid from all, was because of that Prince, Satan. Satan was the force behind Jesus’ nation condemning Him to death. Christ not only defeated Satan at the Cross, but Christ now has what Satan thought he had. I personally believe Christ took away we Gentiles, and Jews in this Dispensation from Satan to replace those Angels (a third of them in rebellion) that followed Satan. Nowhere does scripture say God has replaced those Angels, so maybe that is exactly what He is doing today. What a Secret God did keep.
I’m sure you’ll probably not agree, but we agree on what is important, and that is “we will be saved when we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation”. It seems that the word “Dispensation” which is only used by Paul is what separates us. Paul says a Dispensational gospel was given to him, and Galatians 1:11-12 identifies that person.
No doubt that is why I went to 1Cor 2.
</font>[/QUOTE]Then we agree none understood before the New gospel
I don’t know where to even start with you on this; I understood by the gospel that I was saved by faith alone, never believed I had to be baptized or follow any mans rules to be justified and I learned the truth through the Word of the whole gospel with the guidance of the HS before I ever met a Pauline dispensational Baptist or understood why the gospel was revealed in the way it was. What also continues today is that men want to add their traditions to the truth.
</font>[/QUOTE]Amen; it was the same with me. Do you believe in the “great commission”?
So they didn’t take the whole completed gospel into account, they divided it to suit their theism.
</font>[/QUOTE][/qb]The gospel of Jesus Christ began with the gospel of John the Baptist. They stopped before Damascus Road. The gospel to them, as some others, is the same as before. Grace with works required.
I was saved by faith brought in the Word through the Spirit of God’s grace of the completed gospel. They were saved by faith in the Word by the Spirit of God’s grace of the gospel message that was revealed to them up to that point.
</font>[/QUOTE]Amen, and you are saved by the grace of God through faith without works. That is the gospel of Paul that came after Damascus Road. Those before had another gospel just as you say for in that dispensation quote “They were saved by faith in the Word by the Spirit of God’s grace of the gospel message that was revealed to them up to that point” Unquote. They believed what God told them, and we today believe what He tells us.
I know we disagree here. I contend that there is one gospel with different messages and all were saved by faith by believing what they were told to believe in and all were justified by Jesus Christ in the end by the completed gospel which was the plan form the beginning.
</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, agree we do disagree. Mark 16:15-16, ”And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation.
16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.”
That’s because it was hid for later.
But the gospel of John was in full view and preached and that gospel of John the Baptist was the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. In that dispensation beginning with John the Baptist, a new gospel began, and that New gospel is what the churches call the “great commission”. That “great commission”, which is the second “great commission”, applied to all, first to the Jew and then to the Gentile, for the “kingdom was at hand” gospel had incorporated in it that one must “repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins”.
One can not read that gospel in any other way. This is the way to the “kingdom that was at hand”, and no one will enter unless they believe that gospel. If we do not believe Paul when he says my gospel in Romans 2:16 and Romans 16:25, then not to corrupt and force contradiction of “the great commission”, we must then obey that gospel and “repent and be baptized for the remission of sins”, or we will never have access to the Holy Spirit.
I’m not arguing with you that the gospel message all had to believe in hasn’t changed through the times, but these people were not saved by the blood sacrifices, they were saved by faith alone in the Grace of God. They just didn’t have the full gospel revealed to them yet.
[/quote]Don’t you believe as I, but different terminology? You seem to be saying what I say, viz. from one dispensation into another there is a change. There is something New.
None before had the dispensational gospel that was given to Paul by Christ from heaven. For some reason Christian are “afraid of that bad word, Dispensation. Things changed in the Old Testament. God said that is not operative today, and something is New. When this New is taken to heaven, the Old will start up again, for what happens in the tribulation is told in the Old Testament, and it will come about. But while we are here it cannot restart.
No one questions Moses’ dispensational law from God in heaven to Moses. Why do we question Paul’s dispensational gospel from heaven to Paul?
So you don’t think God knew they were going to fall in the first place? Why did God have the good news planned for us from the foundation of the world? Isn’t it that from the beginning God had planned a propitiation for the sins of all men. </font>[/QUOTE]Of course I agree that He knew, and now we know. But those before the Cross did not know, and that included Satan. Why can’t we just believe that in the mysteries of God He had a secret. Why can’t we believe none could come through the blood before it was shed, and why can’t we believe that Moses, David and all the others did not know His name. There is no way possible those of other dispensations could come to the Father as we do, and that is Through Christ Jesus. Even the Apostles didn’t know for they were taught to pray directly to the Father – ”Our Father which art in heaven……… For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.” That is the kingdom to come prayer, and to enter one must “repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins.”[/I] They could just ask it, “and their will would be done”. We today Pray “Thy will be done”, and we begin or end with “In the name of Jesus Christ our Lord.
A change yes, but a New gospel we are to believe.
Christian faith, ituttut
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Ituttut does not rightly divide the Word of Truth, he splinters it.
Isaiah 53:4-12
4. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
In the Gospel of John we are told by John the Baptist:
John 1:29-33
29. The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30. This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31. And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32. And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
In Isaiah 53 we read that Jesus Christ, the Suffering Servant will suffer for the sins of His people. In the Gospel of John we are told that Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world and shall baptize with the Holy Ghost.
Looking elsewhere in Scripture we read that Jesus Christ told His disciples that He must die and be raised the 3rd day:
Matthew 16:21
From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Matthew 17:23
And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.
Luke 9:22
Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.
We read further in the discussion of Jesus Christ with two disciples on the road to Emmaus:
Luke 24:25-27
25. Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26. Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27. And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
From the above we see that the prophets prophesied the death of Jesus Christ for the sins of His people. We see that John the Baptist speaks of the death of Jesus Christ for the sins of his people. Jesus Christ, Himself, tells His disciples that he must be crucified and raised the 3rd day. Then Jesus Christ rebukes two of His disciples because they did not understand that His death and resurrection were foretold by the prophets.
Now ituttut has the unmitigated gall, which is the fruit of his hyper-dispensationalism, to say that the Apostle Peter did not preach the Gospel and that some unknown dispensational gospel was given to Paul! Sheer nonsense, bordering on heresy! There is only One Gospel, there has always been only One Gospel, there will never be anything other than that One Gospel.
Isaiah 53:4-12
4. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
In the Gospel of John we are told by John the Baptist:
John 1:29-33
29. The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30. This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31. And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32. And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
In Isaiah 53 we read that Jesus Christ, the Suffering Servant will suffer for the sins of His people. In the Gospel of John we are told that Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world and shall baptize with the Holy Ghost.
Looking elsewhere in Scripture we read that Jesus Christ told His disciples that He must die and be raised the 3rd day:
Matthew 16:21
From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Matthew 17:23
And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.
Luke 9:22
Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.
We read further in the discussion of Jesus Christ with two disciples on the road to Emmaus:
Luke 24:25-27
25. Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26. Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27. And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
From the above we see that the prophets prophesied the death of Jesus Christ for the sins of His people. We see that John the Baptist speaks of the death of Jesus Christ for the sins of his people. Jesus Christ, Himself, tells His disciples that he must be crucified and raised the 3rd day. Then Jesus Christ rebukes two of His disciples because they did not understand that His death and resurrection were foretold by the prophets.
Now ituttut has the unmitigated gall, which is the fruit of his hyper-dispensationalism, to say that the Apostle Peter did not preach the Gospel and that some unknown dispensational gospel was given to Paul! Sheer nonsense, bordering on heresy! There is only One Gospel, there has always been only One Gospel, there will never be anything other than that One Gospel.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Old Regular,
You must be forgetting Paul's writings in Galatians 1.
"If any man bring any other gospel..." There is more than one gospel out there. But Paul and Peter both preached Christ.
You must be forgetting Paul's writings in Galatians 1.
"If any man bring any other gospel..." There is more than one gospel out there. But Paul and Peter both preached Christ.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The other gospel to which Paul referred was a false gospel. There is, therefore, only One Gospel which is the power of God unto Salvation [Romans 1:16]!
quickened1
New Member
Make one clean,straight cut........everywhere needed.
Then again?! You say it should not but quickly turn to say we are not all placed in the same place in His “Church”; WELL, by my definition of “Church” I would agree with you based on 1Cor 12 that we are all one body in Christ with many members which includes Jews and Greeks alike through faith, BUT you will attempt to divide after all, maybe starting with an interpretation of “dividing” from 2Tim 2:15 to justify your system and divide the “Church” which at all costs will be forced to fit man’s dispensational eschatological view. This type of system making results in skirting truths and reminds me of the type of things Jesus so animatedly rebuked.
(1Co 12:25) That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
Paul’s revelation of God’s wisdom in showing the One gospel complete is not an excuse for man to build a dispensational theory around it to attempt to prove their desired philosophies.
I think Paul is talking to all believers that have faith; one way to look at having crossed the Red Sea, they represent all true believers. Spiritual and earthly? Seems like another attempt to divide to me. Paul tells us by faith and the blessings of Abraham does righteousness come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ and there is ONLY one seed on which the promise was made.
(Gal 3:16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
The prophets prophesied of Jesus Christ and with us being included in to the gospel of God from the beginning makes them our fathers of the gospel message of which Paul says, “He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of “one” ; 1Cor 10:1-4 and Romans 3:30 confirms; I don’t see how you can possibly think this proves your decision to divide and make a point. Galatians 3:16 ends with -to thy seed, “which is Christ”. Christ is not divided you can’t have it both ways.
Nope, not agreeing to a “New gospel” just a completed one. Sheesh, ya give a Dispy an inch…he’ll take a mile!
I think Paul’s part of the gospel and the wisdom God shows us by revealing it this way is of great importance to knowing the love God had for us through His Gospel of Grace (1Cor 13:13); but Christ revealed this wisdom completed gospel to Paul, not differently, but completely. The princes of this world didn’t know but as for “no one” I’m still working on that and if I find something solid I will let you and Pastor Larry know.
Satan-Evil, I think, had his part but only because God allowed him for in His plan from the beginning. Don’t know about the angels and think in the end we’ll all find out a lot of things we didn’t know.
I guess I just think you put to many dispensations in the dispensation.
Don’t try to slip in “New” on me!
(Luk 18:31) Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
I interpret the commission as directed to all Christians and will preach the good news of God’s Grace from every time and place for the learning of salvation unto all creatures. I will not take away from the Word by dividing the gospel which was prepared for instructions for us from the beginning but I will tell the last part of the story first and give away the ending.
I would call the blessings of faith to all the families on earth closer to the beginning of the good news:
(Gen 12:1) Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will show thee:
(Gen 12:2) And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
(Gen 12:3) And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
The Catholics have caused a lot of problems because of holding to traditions while dividing the Word to suit their agendas. That should be a good example why not to develop systems that strive to divide the Word.
Just because you like my quote doesn’t mean I buy into man’s dispensational systems of hermeneutics that build on error. I suppose if you were one back in the OT blessed with faith and a promise of salvation you wouldn’t call it good news because it wasn’t Paul’s part of the gospel yet? The Glory of God began before the foundation of the world in a promise that Jesus Christ would be the Lamb of sacrifice for the propitiation of sins unto all men of faith to salvation; the gospel is not new, the motives to separate it in order to force fit a system are new.
All the saved were baptized one way or another through “faith” in what they were told to believe in. What did they believe in?--- The good news of salvation prepared before the foundation of the earth. You keep alluding back to thinking these people were saved by works, they were not! They were saved because they believed and that comes only by faith.
I see your point but you seem to be missing the point that we are not saved by Paul’s gospel, we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ. Having to know Paul’s gospel revelation of God’s wisdom in the way you present it implies a work.
I don’t see how you can say the gospel of John was in “full view” in one breath and turn around and say it wasn’t the gospel because Paul’s revelation of God’s wisdom hadn’t happened yet. Paul himself said afterward he only knew in part until Jesus returns 1Cor 13 and that now we look through a glass darkly and how we should live our lives (1Cor 13:13)
As for the commission, were you not repenting of self when you turned to the Lord and were washed of your sins? Does your church not baptize at all or do they find some excuse to still do it? Why do they call us Baptist’s, and after we are saved do we not still repent of our sins? Yes, our sins are paid for Now, and we know how in the completed gospel, but will you forget the JSOC?
The reason we believe on different terminology is that I clearly see an agenda behind teachings of men’s philosophies promoting things apart from the truth, whether it’s an adoption of eschatological views, selling of books, it’s all about adhering to a system of man and we know how Jesus felt about those things; personally I don’t think His attitude will have changed much when He returns. Things will never stop while here on earth with man’s desire to be dispensational and it leads to greater and greater errors.
I think I’ve gone about as far as I know how at this point to explain why I look at the whole picture and won’t cut out one piece to focus on and then over build on it. The dispensations of men have brought in many errors by twisting and forcing scripture to fit their systems and seriously take away from the whole truth. I understand the importance of Paul’s role in presenting the gospel but that’s not even the tip of the ice berg of what some would have others believe from presenting this revelation.
As for prayer, in short; I pray to my Father, I honor His Name and pray through Jesus Christ our Lord, His will be done which IS what the Apostles were told to pray, I don’t presume He gave them everything they asked for by their will, and I don’t claim He will give us everything we ask for but He certainly does give gifts to us as adopted children through His Son.
[ February 27, 2006, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: Benjamin ]
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The fruit of hyper-dispensationalism!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Please note ituttut that the above statement is in direct conflict with your later comments regarding the Gospel of John. There you say that Jesus Christ addressed you but John was not allowed to tell anyone for 20 years after Paul’s writings. Now which is the truth or are you just confused. The fruits of hyper-dispensationalism!
You are being very disingenuous ituttut, bordering on being dishonest. I said nothing about the Gospel of John the Baptist but quoted from the Gospel of John.
So you are saying that Jesus Christ lied on the road to Emmaus when he told the two disciples:
Luke 24:25-27
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Scripture, beginning with Genesis 3:15, teaches that Jesus Christ came to die for sinners. It is you dispensationalists who say that He came to establish an earthly Messianic Kingdom denying what God reveals in Isaiah 53.
First: It is sheer nonsense for you to state that John was not allowed to write his record of the life of Jesus Christ for 20 years until after the writings of Paul.
Second: Am I to understand that you are claiming that the Jesus Christ revealed in the Gospel of John is different than the Jesus Christ that is revealed in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke [the companion of Paul]? Are you, in effect, saying that God Himself is disingenuous, as you are disingenuous, by revealing two different Saviors? Unbelievable, heretical!
Third: A question for you. In John’s Gospel, chapter 4, we read that Salvation is given to the Samaritans. Now were the Samaritans Jews or Gentiles?
If they were Gentiles, according to you they could not have been saved until some unknown dispensational gospel was given to Paul. If they were Gentiles and could not have been saved then the Gospel of John is recording an untruth and is unreliable.
If they were not Jews, and they were not, then your entire illogical prating falls under its own weight of error. The Gospel of John reveals truth, you do not.
It appears that you are verifying my second point above that the Jesus Christ revealed in the Gospel of John is a different than the Jesus Christ that is revealed in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke.
I expand on my statement in my original post: To say that the Gospel preached by Jesus Christ, the Apostle Peter, and the other Apostles is different than some so-called dispensational gospel that was given to Paul is sheer nonsense. It is heresy! There is only One Gospel, there has always been only One Gospel, there will never be anything other than that One Gospel.
Hello Benjamin. Sorry for delay. Computer crashed and finally got everything back in working order yesterday.
Then again?! You say it should not but quickly turn to say we are not all placed in the same place in His “Church”; WELL, by my definition of “Church” I would agree with you based on 1Cor 12 that we are all one body in Christ with many members which includes Jews and Greeks alike through faith, BUT you will attempt to divide after all, maybe starting with an interpretation of “dividing” from 2Tim 2:15 to justify your system and divide the “Church” which at all costs will be forced to fit man’s dispensational eschatological view. This type of system making results in skirting truths and reminds me of the type of things Jesus so animatedly rebuked.
</font>[/QUOTE]Why do you accuse me only of dividing His Church, the Body of Christ? Would you not say you have divided yourself from others “down here? Are you saying those not in “our” denomination down here are going to hell? Is it not the denominations down here that divide themselves? His Church is Spiritual and is not divided. It is of One Body of many parts. Whether you believe it or not, He will be taking His own, regardless of what denomination one belongs to.
Your theology is badly flawed. Read again Galatians. Read Mark 1:1, ”The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God”.How does the Spirit interpret this? How do you interpret this? No contradictions, please.
I think Paul is talking to all believers that have faith; one way to look at having crossed the Red Sea, they represent all true believers. Spiritual and earthly? Seems like another attempt to divide to me. Paul tells us by faith and the blessings of Abraham does righteousness come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ and there is ONLY one seed on which the promise was made.
</font>[/QUOTE]
Christ is not divided in His dispensations. Is it not you that wish to divide Christ today? Did He not tell you to “repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins” while He was on this earth? Are you saying that is the gospel and foundation that you are saved on? Does He not have anything else to tell you today as He sits on the right hand of His Father in heaven?
Completed? Are we now in the millennium? Is there not that gospel in the tribulation?
Nope, not agreeing to a “New gospel” just a completed one. Sheesh, ya give a Dispy an inch…he’ll take a mile!
</font>
So sad, so very sad you have avoided so much of the Bible that pertains to you. Romans 2:16, ”In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.” Paul is not bashful, and is very pointed in his wording. He has a gospel to proclaim and it is the gospel of Christ Jesus from heaven, and there was a secret in the mysteries of God. Some believe parts of the Bible and some believe it all. ”Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began” Romans 16:25.
Your philosophy is to disprove the above for there is nothing “new” in Paul’s gospel. Please prove Paul in error as he preaches salvation by Grace through faith, which is not known until after Damascus Road.
I think Paul’s part of the gospel and the wisdom God shows us by revealing it this way is of great importance to knowing the love God had for us through His Gospel of Grace (1Cor 13:13); but Christ revealed this wisdom completed gospel to Paul, not differently, but completely. The princes of this world didn’t know but as for “no one” I’m still working on that and if I find something solid I will let you and Pastor Larry know.
</font>[/QUOTE] Old gospel – on the foundation of the Great commission.
New gospel – on the foundation of the Grace commission.
Christ is the Cornerstone of both. ”Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace”,Ephesians 2:15.
Why would you wish to waste a lifetime in a futile attempt to disprove His Word that someone knew? Paul speaks for Christ just as did Moses, John the Baptist, and the other Apostles. If we don’t believe Paul then we are refusing to believe the gospel of God reconciling the world unto himself.
Satan-Evil, I think, had his part but only because God allowed him for in His plan from the beginning. Don’t know about the angels and think in the end we’ll all find out a lot of things we didn’t know.
</font>[/QUOTE]Amen, and no one knew what God had planned until He decided to reveal it. Good point not knowing until we get there, but we do know we will be like Him.
I guess I just think you put to many dispensations in the dispensation.
</font>[/QUOTE]Can’t have too many. Only those He determines, whether we can see them or not.
Don’t try to slip in “New” on me!
</font>[/QUOTE]If you think I’m sneaky, why would I capitalize the N in new? I thought surely you might some day catch on to the fact that what Christ revealed to Paul was NEW. You keep saying somebody knew all about everything when scripture proves you wrong. That happens when we listen to man rather than His Word.
Do you not bring up and show a division. All the things written by the prophets will be accomplished. Did the Prophets know about the New that Christ revealed to Paul? Why didn’t they tell us all about it? You say yes, but you cannot prove that Christ lied and told the Prophets about the “rapture”, about the Body of Christ; about the One Baptism, and salvation throughfaith. Find where the Word told the prophets by whose Name They Would Be Saved By. Show me some scripture to back up your man made claims.
I interpret the commission as directed to all Christians and will preach the good news of God’s Grace from every time and place for the learning of salvation unto all creatures. I will not take away from the Word by dividing the gospel which was prepared for instructions for us from the beginning but I will tell the last part of the story first and give away the ending.
</font>[/QUOTE]What you fail to realize is God has allowed you to know the beginning from the end. The prophets and prophetess did not know other than what God allowed them to know. You are saying they knew all about the New Testament before it was written. Amazing!
I would call the blessings of faith to all the families on earth closer to the beginning of the good news:
</font>[/QUOTE]Amen!. We know the “good news” came for we today that “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved”. This was impossible for those in the Old Testament, and it was “good news” when those under the “great commission” were released from having to be “water baptized” for the remission of their sins”. They no longer had to do a work for their salvation.
Good point/s. This is the same thing He told Paul, viz. get away from your people and the heathen, and I’ll show you heaven, giving you a gospel of salvation to those that come to the Father through me. Those that don’t believe the gospel that I give to you will be accursed – ”But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed,” Galatians 1:8. Oh how we should search for the riches that are in Christ.
I John 2:7-8, ”Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word, which ye have heard from the beginning.
8. Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.” What is this Newcommandment? I John 2:12, ”I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.” John writes to his people the same thing Paul had told us about 30 years prior to John’s writing to His people. He tells the Jew they are now free to come just as we Gentile’s, i.e. by believing on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation.
The Catholics have caused a lot of problems because of holding to traditions while dividing the Word to suit their agendas. That should be a good example why not to develop systems that strive to divide the Word.
</font>[/QUOTE]You skirt the issue. They believe they are saved by following the “great commandment”, and other works also.
Just because you like my quote doesn’t mean I buy into man’s dispensational systems of hermeneutics that build on error.
</font>[/QUOTE]Sorry you cannot take a compliment for I thought you might have some understanding of the Bible. By man you evidently are referring to Paul, which immediately bring your words to bear upon yourself, for your hermeneutics of man refuses to believe this man chosen by Christ from heaven.
Continued
</font>[/QUOTE]Surely you’re not saying God didn’t ask His people to make covenant with Him, and obey His Law’s and the ordinances, but it sure looks like that is what you are saying. They believed God in the dispensation they lived in.
Let’s start from the beginning, and then you tell me that faith did not have to include a work, or works. By faith did Cain and Able bring what God demanded? Able did, and Cain didn’t. It was required of them.
Did Noah have to do a work to survive. God didn’t do the work for him, so Noah had to build an Ark. What is the first thing Noah did when He was on dry land? He made blood sacrifice, just as did Able.
All from the beginning in their faith had to do a work to please God. As all lived in those dispensations of God all By faith did a work for they believed what God said to them.
If as you say everything is the same from the beginning, shouldn’t we all get busy making blood sacrifices to our God in our faith? Why aren’t you doing what you preach, if it has always been the same?
</font>[/QUOTE]I use Paul as that is to whom Christ gave His gospel, just as the Lord gave to Moses, Moses’ law. The Lord then gave to John the Baptist his gospel. Does your hair also stand on end when the name of Moses and John the Baptist’s name appears? I can’t understand why people resist the name of Paul, the only heavenly appointed Apostle by Christ Jesus from heaven.
Where can you find in the Gospel that Christ gave to Paul, works other than those that Jesus Christ himself preformed. He, Jesus did all of the work for us. People make work for themselves trying to disprove the last words of Christ Jesus on salvation. Those last words come to us through the Epistles of Paul. All things are New – II Corinthians 5:17, ”Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”
Is this the same “commission” found in Acts 2:38 for the nation of Israel? Who asked Peter what they must do to receive the Holy Ghost? None but the “men of Israel” were to “repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins". All these continued to observe the Sabbath, and make blood sacrifice as evidenced in scripture.
My church still baptizes, for how else can anyone join the church? I know some who still ask for their sins to be forgiven, which I do not understand. Jesus died on the Cross for all of us, and all sins were taken care of at that time. Did He leave some lying about? Is this OSAS salvation or is our salvation not yet attained? Will He die for us again? If we are in Him we are made righteous for He is righteous. We cannot enter into the Body of Christ if we have unforgiven sin/s.
</font>[/QUOTE]Please talk to Christ about this matter, for He is the one who started it. He will show you the way.
</font>[/QUOTE]Paul speaks of the dispensation of Christ, and not man. We are in this dispensation of God, whether we believe Him or not, and the only way we can be saved is in the dispensation that we live in. If we believe we are saved by the name of Jesus Christ then we are saved. If we do not, then we are not. Do all understand their salvation? Some do, and some do not.
The Lord’s Prayer is for those of the Tribulation to pray for the “kingdom to come”, and His will be done at that time.
My prayer is for His coming to “catch me up” before the “kingdom comes”.
Christian faith, ituttut
You still don’t get it, do you. No one knew His name, and He had not shed His blood in those days. They awaited this “good news”, and looked forward to it. When did it arrive? It arrived when Jesus Christ arrived in the “bosom of Abraham”, and it then became Paradise. The “good news” became a reality on the arrival of Jesus Christ. We today are to believe the “good news” gospel of believing on His name to save us.
All the saved were baptized one way or another through “faith” in what they were told to believe in. What did they believe in?--- The good news of salvation prepared before the foundation of the earth. You keep alluding back to thinking these people were saved by works, they were not! They were saved because they believed and that comes only by faith.
</font>[/QUOTE]Surely you’re not saying God didn’t ask His people to make covenant with Him, and obey His Law’s and the ordinances, but it sure looks like that is what you are saying. They believed God in the dispensation they lived in.
Let’s start from the beginning, and then you tell me that faith did not have to include a work, or works. By faith did Cain and Able bring what God demanded? Able did, and Cain didn’t. It was required of them.
Did Noah have to do a work to survive. God didn’t do the work for him, so Noah had to build an Ark. What is the first thing Noah did when He was on dry land? He made blood sacrifice, just as did Able.
All from the beginning in their faith had to do a work to please God. As all lived in those dispensations of God all By faith did a work for they believed what God said to them.
If as you say everything is the same from the beginning, shouldn’t we all get busy making blood sacrifices to our God in our faith? Why aren’t you doing what you preach, if it has always been the same?
I see your point but you seem to be missing the point that we are not saved by Paul’s gospel, we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ. Having to know Paul’s gospel revelation of God’s wisdom in the way you present it implies a work.
</font>[/QUOTE]I use Paul as that is to whom Christ gave His gospel, just as the Lord gave to Moses, Moses’ law. The Lord then gave to John the Baptist his gospel. Does your hair also stand on end when the name of Moses and John the Baptist’s name appears? I can’t understand why people resist the name of Paul, the only heavenly appointed Apostle by Christ Jesus from heaven.
Where can you find in the Gospel that Christ gave to Paul, works other than those that Jesus Christ himself preformed. He, Jesus did all of the work for us. People make work for themselves trying to disprove the last words of Christ Jesus on salvation. Those last words come to us through the Epistles of Paul. All things are New – II Corinthians 5:17, ”Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”
Jesus spoke in parables for none saw, heard, or understood. In Matthew 15:16 Jesus says, ”….. Are ye also yet without understanding?” Who could understand the “unsearchable riches in Christ” until His Spirit enters our heart?
In the One baptism I confessed Jesus Christ as my savior, there finding repentance in Him, being sanctified and justified in Him, sealed by the Holy Spirit. I’m saved by the “grace commission” that comes to us today through the faith of Jesus Christ.
Is this the same “commission” found in Acts 2:38 for the nation of Israel? Who asked Peter what they must do to receive the Holy Ghost? None but the “men of Israel” were to “repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins". All these continued to observe the Sabbath, and make blood sacrifice as evidenced in scripture.
My church still baptizes, for how else can anyone join the church? I know some who still ask for their sins to be forgiven, which I do not understand. Jesus died on the Cross for all of us, and all sins were taken care of at that time. Did He leave some lying about? Is this OSAS salvation or is our salvation not yet attained? Will He die for us again? If we are in Him we are made righteous for He is righteous. We cannot enter into the Body of Christ if we have unforgiven sin/s.
The reason we believe on different terminology is that I clearly see an agenda behind teachings of men’s philosophies promoting things apart from the truth, whether it’s an adoption of eschatological views, selling of books, it’s all about adhering to a system of man and we know how Jesus felt about those things; personally I don’t think His attitude will have changed much when He returns. Things will never stop while here on earth with man’s desire to be dispensational and it leads to greater and greater errors.
</font>[/QUOTE]Please talk to Christ about this matter, for He is the one who started it. He will show you the way.
I think I’ve gone about as far as I know how at this point to explain why I look at the whole picture and won’t cut out one piece to focus on and then over build on it. The dispensations of men have brought in many errors by twisting and forcing scripture to fit their systems and seriously take away from the whole truth. I understand the importance of Paul’s role in presenting the gospel but that’s not even the tip of the ice berg of what some would have others believe from presenting this revelation.
</font>[/QUOTE]Paul speaks of the dispensation of Christ, and not man. We are in this dispensation of God, whether we believe Him or not, and the only way we can be saved is in the dispensation that we live in. If we believe we are saved by the name of Jesus Christ then we are saved. If we do not, then we are not. Do all understand their salvation? Some do, and some do not.
But Benjamin what should we make of such verses a John 14:13-14 which refute your words? ”And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it 15. If ye love me, keep my commandments”, Matthew 17:20, and Mark 16:16-17.
The Lord’s Prayer is for those of the Tribulation to pray for the “kingdom to come”, and His will be done at that time.
My prayer is for His coming to “catch me up” before the “kingdom comes”.
Christian faith, ituttut
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The fruit of hyper-dispensationalism!
Christian faith, ituttut </font>[/QUOTE]In the above record I say: "Ituttut does not rightly divide the Word of Truth, he splinters it". You respond by saying: "Why do you accuse Jesus Christ of “splintering His Word or Himself”"
It is quite apparent that you are not telling the truth.
In the above record I say: "There is only One Gospel, there has always been only One Gospel, there will never be anything other than that One Gospel." You respond by accusing me: "You then in your last paragraph call Paul a liar."
Again it is quite apparent that you are not telling the truth.
ituttut, since you apparently are aware only of some unknown dispensational gospel supposedly given to Paul perhaps you should sign off with:
Pauline Faith instead of
Christian Faith
And faith in Paul never saved anyone!
Please note ituttut that the above statement is in direct conflict with your later comments regarding the Gospel of John. There you say that Jesus Christ addressed you but John was not allowed to tell anyone for 20 years after Paul’s writings. Now which is the truth or are you just confused. The fruits of hyper-dispensationalism!
</font>[/QUOTE]The fruit of truth not understood by some. Believe you may have your John’s mixed up. John the Baptist never addressed me. Of course John the Apostle does, but He was not allowed to until some 20 to 30 years after the death of Paul.
You are being very disingenuous ituttut, bordering on being dishonest. I said nothing about the Gospel of John the Baptist but quoted from the Gospel of John.
</font>[/QUOTE]You do falsely accuse OldRegular. Your quote – “In the Gospel of John we are told by John the Baptist:”
Things of this nature do occur, those of mistyped words, things being not understood.
So you are saying that Jesus Christ lied on the road to Emmaus when he told the two disciples:
Luke 24:25-27
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
</font>[/QUOTE]Not at all. Jesus was talking to two of His countrymen, just as was Isaiah. Isaiah above speaks only to His people. Why try and change His Word?
Please take time to study what you are reading OldRegular. He started with Moses and all the prophets. He then explained to them the prophecies concerning himself, up until that time. He can’t tell them at this time what he will later tell to Paul as He sits next to His Father in heaven. How can He later tell Paul a “secret” if He is now telling it. All they know is “repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins” to go with their coming by faith.
Genesis 3:15 teaches Jesus Christ will overcome Satan. This is necessary in the plan of God. God accomplishes what He sets out to do.
Is this dishonesty on your part, or total lack of understanding. Psalms 25:13, ” His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.” Psalms 37:39; Isaiah 49:8; Matthew 5:5. Revelation 5:10, ”And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.” You believe whatever book you are reading, and I will believe His Word.
First: It is sheer nonsense for you to state that John was not allowed to write his record of the life of Jesus Christ for 20 years until after the writings of Paul.
</font>[/QUOTE]John wrote his books as soon as the Spirit had him do so. We know John was very cautious as we see at the Tomb allowing Peter to first enter. John is deliberate, and patient waiting on His Lord.
Do you find in the other Gospel’s, that which is revealed in the Gospel of John? We should believe what we read in His Word. So very many things in John’s Gospel are not included in the others. Have you never asked yourself why this is? What John wrote could not be told until after Paul’s Epistle’s were circulated all over the world.
Why do we not find some of the things John wrote in Revelation in any other scripture? God did not want that information disclosed until He closed His Word to us. Christ gave to John those “secrets” never before known.
God can dispense His information anytime He wishes, and in this dispensation He had Paul write New information in his Epistles, and He had John write New information in his Gospel, and in Revelation. Why not have a little talk to Him on these matters. He will more than happy to explain them to you; but only if you listen to him.
Wrong as usual, but we’ll go through the exercise in a moment of the Samaritans.
I have never said a Gentile could not be saved. They have always been able to become a proselyte of the Jewish faith. I have said a full blooded Gentile was never preached to before God sent Peter to Cornelius. A Gentile could not enter into the inner Court of the Temple. If people would only stop and think for a moment they might come to the realization that they should believe in the Dispensational gospel that was given to Paul. I am now allowed into Temple. This was unheard of, and even while James and the earthly Apostles lived a Gentile was never allowed into the Temple.
You are right. The Gospel of John reveals truth, as does all the Bible. We just have to study His Word and we will find the answers. Do you believe Jesus? Then believe what you read as presented here, for it is scripture.
We notice there is something very different about the people as Jesus makes distinction as such in His first “great commission”. We know by scripture that that there are Jews and Gentiles, and mixtures therein. But we see in Matthew Jesus makes another distinction in chapter 10, verse 5, ”These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
The Samaritans made a copy of the Temple at Jerusalem in Mount Gerizim including animal sacrifices. They would not go to Jerusalem to worship, and the Jerusalem church would not go to Mount Gerizim to worship. The people did not like each other.
The Samaritans are evidently half-bred heathen and seed of Jacob. We see this in John 4:12, ” Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?” These people come from the seed of Jacob. Had this not been so, Jesus would tell us. But what this reference in John does tell us, since they are the seed of Abraham, they evidently come before we heathen for He preached to them.
It appears that you are verifying my second point above that the Jesus Christ revealed in the Gospel of John is a different than the Jesus Christ that is revealed in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke.
</font>[/QUOTE]Not at all, it is just that even in those days the house of Israel was blinded, just as they are today. But God always has a remnant of His people in every generation. Jesus said the words, but none understood what He was saying of what John reports He said while He was on earth.
Jesus says the Gentile will hear, and we do understand now that He also came for us, and we Baptist and others understand how we are saved. It is by His name for there is no other name under heaven that we can be saved by. That is the reason Moses, David and all the others could not be as we, OSAS. They didn’t know His name.
Other than the “everlasting gospel”, will you please tell me what you think that gospel to be? Am I saved or am I going to hell in your judgment. You know what I believe, but you do not lie out your step-by-step plan for salvation. Please tell me what I must do to be saved just like you.
Christian faith, ituttut
The fruit of hyper-dispensationalism!
Christian faith, ituttut </font>[/QUOTE]In the above record I say: "Ituttut does not rightly divide the Word of Truth, he splinters it". You respond by saying: "Why do you accuse Jesus Christ of “splintering His Word or Himself”"
It is quite apparent that you are not telling the truth.
</font>[/QUOTE]You misunderstand OldRegular. You accuse me of “splinter”, but in doing so it is you that do not see the truth in His Word. If you believe what Jesus says while He was on earth, He tells us He only came for His own, at that time, and for a year after Pentecost. During that period the “kingdom that was at hand” would come if His people had accepted Messiah. They didn’t. God then did what He knew from the beginning. He would reconcile the whole world unto Himself. This is what caused the Damascus Road incident. Is it not you that “splinters”, or withdraw from His gospel for us today; doing away with the covenant gospel to the Jew of circumcision and all that goes with it?
Again you do not understand, failing to see your error.
Hate of Paul’s gospel is to hate what Christ told Paul to tell us. If I discard the gospel of Christ Jesus from heaven that He gave to Paul, will you please tell me by what faith, and what other name than the Lord Jesus Christ we can be saved by? There must be another way to come to the Father, for you seem not to believe the way we enter into the Body of Christ.
Please give me your thoughts on this. Tell me how you were saved – step by step please that there will be no misunderstanding. I’ll really appreciate it.
Christian faith, ituttut