Robots in heaven?

[Jarthur001]

Hello Allan,

On much of this we have come to a "no pass zone". We may need to move to the "Calvinist text". I used verses here not used most of the time. showing the same idea though the Bible. I understand, you do not agree with this last line.

There are just a few things I would like to address, but 1st I would like for you to make somethings clear in your post..
You must know...this is very hard on me to pass over...in fact I have wrote and deleted 3 times already. As it turns out..I have a big mouth. I will bold a few lines...for my own pleasure.

1) I beleive that God can and does limit man at time but I do not beleive God takes control of man (possess) as you speculate.

2) Abimelechs only possible sin that would be accounted to him is to violate Gods decreed promise ....

3) When I speak of Abimelech to sin I am refering to your lust to sin in meaning.

Jhn 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind (did not know), ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
I added for clarificaiton. Abimelech was not considered sinning because he had no clue he did wrong and therefore it was not sin unto him.

OK...This is one I'm talking about. Are you saying what I think your saying? Are you saying..
"Because Abimelech did not know it was sin...it was not sin?"

If this be the case..would it be better if we just hid all the Bibles...never sing Songs unto God....never share Gods Word....in order that no one would KNOW of sin..and thereby...not sin? This sounds crazy to me, but in your view, if I understand you right...this would work.

I have had training that institutes all those fancy 10 dollar words we get to use in Christrian collages but I find they do not help others who read or listen to our conversation in their spiritual growth and faith.

You mean like this statement by Warfield?

Warfield
The differences which have been enumerated exhaust the possibilities of differences of large moment within the limits of the plan of salvation. Men must be either Naturalists or Supematuralists; Supematuralists either Sacerdotalists or Evangelicals; Evangelicals either Universalistic or Particularistic; Particularists must be particularistic with respect to only some or with respect to all of God's saving operations.

I paid only 2 bucks for this one. But.....if all that you got was big words then your school needs to give your money back. Do not get me started on education. It is to understand, not to pass. Some schools seem to forget this. Ok..this little part was free

4)As I claim, it was not sin to him because as God said it was done in the integrity of his heart

5) Therefore I (God) KEPT you from sinning by not allowing you to touch her.

Satan did not lie (though the implication is there concerning his desire to mislead) but decieved (explicitly he did this)

I have to say I smiled on this. Are you saying to decieve is not to lie? Allan...Allan...come on man. Do I need to pull out the verses on this?

6) Why did God not allow Abimelech, because when common sense makes sense seek no other sense, that being Abimelechs sin would have negated Gods plan for a promised people and Messiah.

He does not do as He pleases without reason....

When you have time...Please tell me about the mind of God..

Paul had the option of obeying, and did so, as did you. God did not make man to not seek after Him. Man choose to be seperate from God which is both light and life within man.

What do you think about this idea...

Paul was not seeking the right God..He was killing those that Believed in Christ..in Gods name, not knowing Chrsit was God.

JWs do not kill anyone, but they are much like Paul in that they believe in God the Father, and "had the option of obeying" God but not Christ as God just as Paul.

So....being that God saved Paul when He was not looking, but was in the option of obeying God...Does this mean God will save JWs though they are not looking?

What do you think?


In Christ...James

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Allan,

just a short one ...

I have read this story now (just so you know) 6 times, ( should have read it 7 so it would be perfect, hehehe)

Maybe I need to read it too.

but there is NO place where God take control of Balaam, but I do see with crystal clarity that Balaam after the ass incident humbly submits himself to whatever God wants him to do.

Not that i agree fully with you, but going by your view...in the bold...then what happened?

When Balaam states he has no power, IS NOT a reference to God possession of his body or mouth but that he will only do what God has told him to do.

OK..its nots Balaams power we know this. Who's power is it?

You forget to add to your contextual view here that Balaam is a believer (not a good one, but a believer all the same) and therefore follows what he knows God desires of him.

But I agree that God is over ALL His creation, and that would be believers too.

Would you say that if God gives you a message to preach or a study to teach that when you get up to speak God takes full control of you. Of course not!

Well...I have to say you are wrong. Ok, not each and every time, but I have taught many times and have no idea where the words come from, other then from God. I have wrote and got lost in time, and look and see that I have wrote pages not even knowing how the words got there. <<< this should be easy for you to believe. Call me a freak if you will, but it has happened to me. Also in prayer. wow..what a great God.

I will ask this though; Do you consider be filled with the Holy Ghost (biblical view) the same as being God taking over man? Especially since it refers to...be not controled with wine but controled with the Holy Spirit.

I understand your point, but I cannot make that call. OK what I mean is YES..God is in control at this time. But...God is always in control. It is when we fight this control that our world falls apart. The book of Ecclesiastes I love. God blesses us...we need to enjoy his blessing. But...God gave them, and God can take them. God is in full control at all times. He must be...for He is GOD.

The words in his mouth does not mean that this was God over riding Balaams ability to speak. That is completely outside the context of these passages. I do agree Gods word was in his mouth to be spoken, but because he was willing to give it. Can someone not say what God gives them, OF course - Jonah is a good example.

Balaam said he COULD NOT speak but the words given to Him By God, so his ability was not stopped but the words was given to him by God and these were the only words that he could speak, according to the passage. Jonah...plz. Are you saying Jonah ran..and God said..."fine I'll get someone else?" If I remember right God MADE jonah go in the end...did he not?

Made him? yes.
Freewill? aaaaw no.
Jonah in control..or God?

What was that plant God grow over night..and killed the next day? Who did that?


In Christ...James

 

[Allan]

There are just a few things I would like to address, but 1st I would like for you to make somethings clear in your post..
You must know...this is very hard on me to pass over...in fact I have wrote and deleted 3 times already. As it turns out..I have a big mouth. I will bold a few lines...for my own pleasure.

1) I beleive that God can and does limit man at time but I do not beleive God takes control of man (possess) as you speculate.

2) Abimelechs only possible sin that would be accounted to him is to violate Gods decreed promise ....

3) When I speak of Abimelech to sin I am refering to your lust to sin in meaning.

1)I bleieve that God CAN and DOES limit (I should say options or choices take your pick) mans will at time(s),
a) The whole possession issue is a word I logically conclude is synonmous to your position of God taking control of all men (sinner and saint alike). If God impedes mans will to the point of controlling mans will (like the rudder of a ship) it neccesitates that man is so controlled by God He can do nothing else but what his controller tells him (thus robots). Such control is called possession. Demons do this with the unsaved, in the same terms you ascibe to God so it makes logical sense to use the same word.

2)This is correct in the way I phrased it. Us who know (compared to Abimelech at that specific time) the truth of what had transpired, know what he did is considered sin (to God) in marrying a married woman. If God kept him (Abimelech) from sinning against Him (God) He would have kept Abimelech from marrying Sarah. Every sin is against God, except of course sexual sin which is a sin to God and the body.

Now if God kept Abimelech from sinning against Him but allowed Abimelech to sin, in what sense was Abimelech KEPT from sinning against God?

This is why God states what Abimelech did... was in the integrity of his heart... and that God kept Abimelech FROM sinning. Since you have been a believer for at least some time (I assume but guess from you knowledge) are there things that you have come to understand as sin now that you did not know at the first? Answer: Duh Allan! :laugh:
Was that sin accounted unto you as sin (personally responsible) when you did not know it was sin?
Was you convicted of the sin before you did what you know now to be sin - before you knew it was a sin? Not conviction of lostness but sin as an act.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Jhn 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind (did not know), ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Note: Jesus did not say they did not sin (for there sin REMAINED) but if they were blind (unknowing of it) they were not held responsible for the act. Since they said they see (know sin) they are held to the law that reveals sin.
Sin is there yes, and the conscience knows right and wrong in general (this is why across cultures Theft is wrong, murder is wrong, ect...) Does this mean Hide all Gods Word so everyone can get to heaven. Of Course not, Paul deals with this regarding those who have never heard but still see in nature ect... I am referring to an act that is in known conflict with God or true good according to that persons knowledge. Thus responsible for personal sin.

3)This was just to keep from having to write so much. You kept saying (paraphrase) that God kept Abimelechs from the lust to sin against Him.

I know the scripture you are using (James) but we see nothing in scripture that declares or implies Abimelech was lusting to (in some way) sin against God as in knowing there was something God did not like and he was seeking to do it. Scripture clarifies this in the very same sentence with regard to touching/sleeping with Sarah.

You mean like this statement by Warfield?

Oh yeah! I just don't get why people have to speak so high, it sounds like they ran out of air. And I do agree with you on the education bit. I beleive (especially pastors and such) should have some schooling (not required - as in a requirement to BE a pastor) but it is one of the tools to better educate and help those we guide and lead in our relationship with the Lord.

I have to say I smiled on this. Are you saying to decieve is not to lie?

I was clarifying as to specifics of what I thought you said.
YOU STATE: Satan did not lie to Eve? Most would say he did lie to Eve. But still the point remains

When you have time...Please tell me about the mind of God..

Are you insinuating that God does things without reasons He just does them arbitrarily or on a flight of fancy?

Paul was not seeking the right God..He was killing those that Believed in Christ..in Gods name, not knowing Chrsit was God.

JWs do not kill anyone, but they are much like Paul in that they believe in God the Father, and "had the option of obeying" God but not Christ as God just as Paul.

So....being that God saved Paul when He was not looking, but was in the option of obeying God...Does this mean God will save JWs though they are not looking?

What do you think?

True of Paul, but we also know that in scripture it states those who seek me will find me and other such verses. We also know that unless without the call of God no will seek Him. Paul may have been giving service to the wrong IDEA\VIEW of God but not the wrong God. If God holds true to His Word then Paul must have been seeking becuase God was calling (what was he seeking to know? we will not know specifically this side of heaven) however, it is speculation on both our sides and I will concede that.

The JWs have the wrong God not just Idea/view of God.

So....being that God saved Paul when He was not looking, but was in the option of obeying God...Does this mean God will save JWs though they are not looking?

It did not happen when Paul wasn't looking...you can't even get that out of what I wrote (well I guess you did but not normally) I stated God does not "make\force" man to seek after God. And yes there is the option to accept or reject the Lord Jesus as Christ. If the individual JWs are looking they will be found of Him and may choose to know the true God of the true bible, if they are not , they will not listen and even reject the Holy Spirits call to them. This is why God when calls men, men are held responsible to respond to that call.

 

[Allan]

I stated:

but there is NO place where God take control of Balaam, but I do see with crystal clarity that Balaam after the ass incident humbly submits himself to whatever God wants him to do.

You state:

Not that i agree fully with you, but going by your view...in the bold...then what happened?

Simple. Balaam obeyed God BECAUSE HE WANTED TO. I do believe God is in control, I just disagree with you that God TAKES control/possess people to do His will. Thus I do not beleive we are Robots. In what you have consistantly portrayed concerning God controllin\possessing all people (sinner and saint alike) to maitain His will\decrees, is no different than that automatizing people so nothing goes off because God can control input. (going back to the robot analogy )

Well...I have to say you are wrong. Ok, not each and every time, but I have taught many times and have no idea where the words come from, other then from God. I have wrote and got lost in time, and look and see that I have wrote pages not even knowing how the words got there. <<< this should be easy for you to believe. Call me a freak if you will, but it has happened to me. Also in prayer. wow..what a great God.

There is a vast difference in the Holy SPirit empowering you and enabling you and taking control of you body and thoughts.

I understand your point, but I cannot make that call. OK what I mean is YES..God is in control at this time. But...God is always in control. It is when we fight this control that our world falls apart. The book of Ecclesiastes I love. God blesses us...we need to enjoy his blessing. But...God gave them, and God can take them. God is in full control at all times. He must be...for He is GOD.

God IS ALWAYS in Control, Just not Controlling things like robots. I absolutely beleive that God is in control and soveriegn, So soveriegn in fact that He can stay in absolute control even if His creation has the ability to do its own thing.

Balaam said he COULD NOT speak but the words given to Him By God, so his ability was not stopped but the words was given to him by God and these were the only words that he could speak, according to the passage. Jonah...plz. Are you saying Jonah ran..and God said..."fine I'll get someone else?" If I remember right God MADE jonah go in the end...did he not?

Made him? yes.
Freewill? aaaaw no.
Jonah in control..or God?

What was that plant God grow over night..and killed the next day? Who did that?

I agree that God is in control just not taking control of people to do things. Balaam was a man of God (one who willingly submits to his God) ergo, he can only do what his heart desires (that is to please God). It remains a personal choice of obedience.

Jonah - Did not speak the words God gave him
- Ran from where God told him he HAD to go
- Willingly submitted to Gods judgment so others would not die. Still didn't fess up to his sin.
- 3 days later he repents and CHOOSES to go where God sent him
- He went assuming God would destroy them, and not for the intended purpose God sent him
- God chastises him for his attitude towards the people and his view that God was unmerciful towards anyone other than Jews.

Made him - Yes, but did not control him
Free will - Ummm. Yes - absolutly
Jonah or God in control - God but Jonah is still very naughty! :thumbs:

 

[Allan]

This was a good discussion, thank you. :godisgood: :thumbsup:

 

[Jarthur001]

This was a good discussion, thank you. :godisgood: :thumbsup:

I would have to agree. In the short time I have been on this board, this ranks in the top 5....in my eyes. I do have more on the subject, for we were just getting to some good stuff. Yet I am to lazy to type it.

Maybe this weekend...

In Christ..James

 

[Allan]

**Bump** :laugh: :laugh: :sleep:

I figured there were a good number more of people on as of late why not try to raise some dead threads. We do as christians have authorty right, at least on BB threads.

Plus and as you can see I get extremely bored on the night shift here at work.