Rom 5:15-17

[Gup20]

gup



Not so. Thats included, but not limited to that. Paul said not of works Period Eph 2:9

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.​

This verse proves you are wrong.

Believing is an good act of the mind, a work . I do not care how you deny it, you contrary to scripture believe and teach salvation by works !

My beliefs are in line with scripture's definition of "works", and the Apostle Paul's definition of "works." Your view contradicts scripture.

 

[Gup20]

mandy



Correct, God never made no covenant with Abraham ! God revealed to Abraham that He was a beneficary of a Covenant, that being the everlasting Covenant of Grace.

That Covenant was not conditioned on Abraham's Faith, in fact, God gave Abraham Faith to believe that promise..

SBM must be unaware of what a covenant is. Here is Meriam-Webster's definition:

Covenant
1
a usually formal, solemn, and binding agreement : compact
2
a : a written agreement or promise usually under seal between two or more parties especially for the performance of some action
b : the common-law action to recover damages for breach of such a contract

A covenant is an agreement between two parties. That means both sides have to engage their will for an agreement to be made. If you do A, I will do B.

 

[Gup20]

That Covenant was not conditioned on Abraham's Faith, in fact, God gave Abraham Faith to believe that promise..

It's good to see you now understand faith to mean "belief". Can you list the scripture in Genesis where it says that God gave Abraham faith to believe the promise, or is that something imposed on the scripture by your Calvinistic theology?

Because from what I read in the scripture, it says:

Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.​

​

 

[savedbymercy]

gp

It's good to see you now understand faith to mean "belief".

I have always understood it, but what you do not understand is that believing on Christ is a good work, and you believe and teach that a man is saved by doing a good work, that is a False Gospel. Titus 3:5

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The word done here is the greek word poieō and means:

to act rightly, do well

to perform: to a promise

It is the same word used when the Jailor asked " what must I do to be saved" ?

So if you believe as you do, that one is saved because they believed, that is Salvation by works..which is condemned by scripture..

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Oh brother.

 

[Gup20]

gp



I have always understood it, but what you do not understand is that believing on Christ is a good work, and you believe and teach that a man is saved by doing a good work, that is a False Gospel. Titus 3:5

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The word done here is the greek word poieō and means:

to act rightly, do well

to perform: to a promise

It is the same word used when the Jailor asked " what must I do to be saved" ?

So if you believe as you do, that one is saved because they believed, that is Salvation by works..which is condemned by scripture..

And what do you think the phrase "works of righteousness" means? It means following the law. It's not "any works" as you suppose ... it is specifically works of righteousness. The Bible continues to prove you wrong and define "works" as "following the law" and it defines "faith" as "believing the gospel". Indeed "works" is NOT defined in scripture as "anything you do."

 

[savedbymercy]

gpu

And what do you think the phrase "works of righteousness" means?

Thats self explanatory. Titus 3:5

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Any good deed we may have performed or done. To believe on Christ is a good deed !

The word deed is

something that is done, performed

You believe a person is saved by what they have done, to believe on Christ is man doing something..Thats a work or deed.

James says 1:25

25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

The Perfect Law of Liberty is the Gospel of Christ, who has liberated His people from the law. The looking here is another way of saying, believe in the Gospel, that is a deed.

You teach a man is saved by doing a good deed, that is condemned by scripture..

Indeed "works" is NOT defined in scripture as "anything you do."

Thats a lie, the very word God inspired the scripture writers to use is defined that way ! It is the greek word ergon:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

 

[Gup20]

gpu



Thats self explanatory. Titus 3:5

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Any good deed we may have performed or done. To believe on Christ is a good deed !

You really have no answer, do you? You keep parroting the same argument that I have soundly refuted. You have yet to demonstrate scripturally A) that faith is not believing or B) that "works" means anything you do rather than the law. On the other hand, I have quite literally shown you dozens of verses that explicitly support my argument.

I have shown you beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Bible equates believing and faith, and it also equates works with the law.

The word deed is

something that is done, performed

You believe a person is saved by what they have done, to believe on Christ is man doing something..Thats a work or deed.

Not according to scripture. The Bible defines faith as belief in the gospel. I showed you dozens of scriptures for this which you ignored. You can see any of my previous posts for a sound refutation of this point.

James says 1:25

25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James also says that faith without works is dead.

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.​

Even here in James faith is equated with belief. James makes the point that our works demonstrate "what we believe". James says that it is our belief that saves us, and it is works that demonstrates what we believe.

For example, if I was standing in the middle of the street and a car were coming toward me, and I told everyone I didn't believe the car was going to hit me... that I was going to stand strong because I had faith that the car would miss me... and then at the last minute I jumped out of the way, it would be clear that I actually did not believe the car would miss me. My actions would have demonstrated what I truly believed.

The Perfect Law of Liberty is the Gospel of Christ, who has liberated His people from the law. The looking here is another way of saying, believe in the Gospel, that is a deed.

You teach a man is saved by doing a good deed, that is condemned by scripture..

Not surprisingly, this now worn out argument continues to be irrelevant. (I say not surprising because you keep using it over and over when I have thoroughly and soundly refuted it with much scripture) Whether or not faith is classified as a deed is of zero consequence to scripture. That's the part that you don't seem willing to understand. Faith and Works are Biblical terms with Biblical meanings. They are not generic terms with generic meanings. Just as "the law" is not a generic term... it means "the law of Moses." Or "the Lord" is not a generic term, it specifically means one Lord. I literally gave you dozens of scriptures that defines both "Works" and "Faith" according to the scriptural definition. You're purporting another gospel here by refusing to use the Bible's own definitions of these words.

Thats a lie, the very word God inspired the scripture writers to use is defined that way ! It is the greek word ergon...

Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, ​

Careful, friend. You are calling the Holy Spirit a liar. This isn't my idea. This is straight from scripture. Because scripture itself says explicitly that belief in Him is faith and it is not a work, therefore we know that your definition of works is inconsistent with the scripture.

 

[savedbymercy]

gup

You really have no answer, do you?

The answer is this, You teach salvation by works, what a man performs, that is condemned by scripture !

 

[Gup20]

gup



The answer is this, You teach salvation by works, what a man performs, that is condemned by scripture !

The answer is this - you teach a false gospel, purporting that faith is a work.

The Bible clearly defines faith as "believing the gospel" and clearly defines "works" as "following the law".

Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works (ergon) of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works (ergon) of the law: for by the works (ergon) of the law shall no flesh be justified.​

Interesting the symmetry Paul uses here... he uses "faith" 3 times and "works" 3 times. He defines "faith" as believing and he defines "works" as the law.

Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works (ergon) of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;​

Rom 3:27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works (ergon)? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds (ergon) of the law.​

​

 

[savedbymercy]

gup

The answer is this - you teach a false gospel, purporting that faith is a work.

Faith is a work, when you make it a condition to get saved. Anything a man does to get saved is a work salvation. To believe on Christ is a commandment 1 Jn 3:23

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

The word believe here is a aorist subjunctive, denoting punctiliar action. This usually denotes a simple past tense. Whereas the word love is a present tense subjunctive, which denotes continuous action or that it is occurring in actual time !

So the believing here is the same as the imperative Paul issued to the Phillip an Jailor Acts 16:31


31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

This also is an aorist tense verb

So if you are teaching that a person is saved because they believed, kept a commandment, performed a action, then that is Salvation by works, which is condemned by scripture..

 

[savedbymercy]

Grace abounds [its applied] to the many Christ died for, its not offered , but it abounds to them !

Rom 5:15

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

The false teachers of our day teach that grace being applied is conditional upon it being accepted from an offer, thats not true, they are wresting the scriptures. The Grace of God abounds to the many, by Jesus Christ, unto all for whom He died.

The Many in the greek has the definite article, specifying a particular group as the Many. It is the Many Christ shed His blood for in the New Covenant Matt 26:28.

Paul confirms this in His Epistle to the Ephesians 1:7-8

7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8Wherein he[God] hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

The riches of His [God's] Grace at the end of vs 7, is abounded towards us [ The Many or the Chosen [Eph 1:4] in all wisdom and prudence .

God is active in having caused it [Rich Grace] to abound [being applied] to us, if we are His Chosen or of the Many !

 

[Gup20]

gup



Faith is a work, when you make it a condition to get saved. Anything a man does to get saved is a work salvation.

This is SavedByMercy 1:1 ... this is not the Bible. God's Word makes a definitive distinction between works of the law and faith through believing.

So if you are teaching that a person is saved because they believed, kept a commandment, performed a action, then that is Salvation by works, which is condemned by scripture..

Only according to you... but not according to scripture. According to the Apostle Paul, if I am preaching salvation by faith this means I am preaching that people are made righteous by believing in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[savedbymercy]

Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

All for whom Christ died, they receive by free gift, Justification of life; And since all men without exception do not receive Justification of Life, it is quite obvious that Christ did not die for all men without exception !

The effects of what Christ accomplished for those He was the Representative head of [ His Church] cannot be less effective as the effect of what Adam accomplished by his one offence ! Now Adam's effects to those he represented, condemnation came upon them, it was not offered them, made available for them, it was not their freewill choice, but it came upon them Sovereignly !

So in likewise manner, Christ effects to all those He represented [ The seed of Abraham Heb 2:16] Justification of life came upon them. Neither was it offered them, made available to them, nor was it their freewill choice, but it came upon them Sovereignly ! To deny this is a rejection of what Christ accomplished for His People and its putting the effects of Adam over and above that of Christ, which is dishonoring to Christ to say the least.

 

[savedbymercy]

Christ's consequences greater than Adam's consequences

Rom 5:15

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Paul is now beginning to contrast the effects of the work of Adam and the work of Christ. This he will do no less than five times in the next several verses . Paul here is teaching that both Men are Covenant Heads, and they both represent people. Each Heads actions or deed brings with it results or consequences for the people they represent. Now here in verse 15, Paul makes a statement of fact, which is, that many be dead or died, and this being dead was not because of their own personal sin or wrong doing since they did not physically exist as of yet, but it was through One man's offence or fall or lapse or deviation, that One being Adam [See also vs 12]. There was a Union [in God's reckoning] of Adam and all for whom he represented, a Union so binding that God viewed all whom Adam represented as offending when he did, and the consequences was death. He died and all he represented died 1 Cor 15:22

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

You see that ? In Adam ! Now how does one get in Adam ? Did those that Adam represented , that were IN him choose to be in Adam by their own freewill ? Did they have a choice to be in Adam ? Whose choice was it that they were in Adam ?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

All for whom Christ died, they receive by free gift, Justification of life; And since all men without exception do not receive Justification of Life, it is quite obvious that Christ did not die for all men without exception !

Hi savedbymercy,

Let us look more closely at the verse:

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Ro.5:18).

The Greek word translated "unto" in the phrase "free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" is a preposition which speaks of "direction":
" 'eis', a Prep. governing the Accusative, and denoting entrance into, or direction and limit" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

The word 'tendency" is a synonym for the word "direction" and "a TENDENCY is an inclination toward a certain line of action (whether or not the action follows), and is often the result of inherent qualities, nature and habit" (The American College Dictionary).

Now let us look at the verse again:

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Ro.5:18).

Since in the first instance where the words "all men" are used they obviously refer to all men without exception then common sense dictates that the second time those same words are used the meaning is also all men everywhere.

It is an easy thing to understand exactly what the "free gift" is:

"And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation" (2 Cor.5:19).

 

[savedbymercy]

jerry

Since in the first instance where the words "all men" are used they obviously refer to all men without exception

It refers to all men that Adam was the Represenative Head of when he sinned !

then common sense dictates that the second time those same words are used the meaning is also all men everywhere.

It refers to all men that Christ was the represenative Head of ! And that would be His Body, the Church. Eph 5:23

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Col 1:18

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

So Christ was not the Head of all men without exception !

It is an easy thing to understand exactly what the "free gift" is:

Its Salvation..

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It refers to all men that Adam was the Represenative Head of when he sinned !

From the context it refers to all men without exception because Paul says that death passed upon ALL MEN because they sinned. There is nothing in the context that even hints that the reference is to some theory that Adam was "the Representative Head" of men.

It refers to all men that Christ was the represenative Head of ! And that would be His Body, the Church. Eph 5:23

Paul certainly would not use the term "all men" to refer to only "some" men. Again, there is nothing in the context which supports you view.

 

[The Biblicist]

gup



Faith is a work, ..

Answer these questions in the order I give them to you please!

1. Is "grace" of works without ceasing to be grace? - Rom. 11:6

2. Is "works" of grace without ceasing to be works? - Rom. 11:6

3. Is "faith" said to be "of grace"? - Rom. 4:16

 

[Gup20]

From the context it refers to all men without exception because Paul says that death passed upon ALL MEN because they sinned. There is nothing in the context that even hints that the reference is to some theory that Adam was "the Representative Head" of men.



Paul certainly would not use the term "all men" to refer to only "some" men. Again, there is nothing in the context which supports you view.

Indeed, I agree. If "all men" really meant "some men" in regards to justification, then it must necessarily also mean "some men" in regards to condemnation.

In other words, to be consistent, if the justification was only for some people then not everyone would die because of Adam's sin... death would not have passed to all men.

But savedbymercy is just trying to justify his calvinistic viewpoint of limited atonement. Unfortunately for him (and other calvinists) using this passage to prove limited atonement undermines his argument for total depravity.