Rom 9:8 What does it mean for the jews ?

[savedbymercy]

Rom 9:8

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

What does this phrase mean :

They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:

First we must understand the immediate context, Rom 9:6-8 and the children of the flesh would be ethnic israel of Vs 6, one of the Israel's mentioned there !

Rom 9:6

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

One of these Israels is the ethnic nation of israel in general, the other is an elect Nation Israel in Particular, and One is according to Abraham's Physical abilty, according to the flesh, and one is according to no ability of Abraham at all, but God's Word of Promise and Power ! Thats why they are Called the Children of God.

Now Rom 9:8 means that those jews, the mere physical biological children of Abraham, as pointed out in Vs 7

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Remember when Jesus told some ethnic jews this :

Jn 8:37

I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

But He comes right back and indicates that they are not Children of God, and dont have God as their Father Jn 8:42

42 Jesus said unto them[those ethnic jews of the physical seed of Abraham], If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

So Jesus flat out repudiates any false notion that just because you are a jew of Abrahamic blood descent, that you belong to God , are one of His Children !

Being not the Children of God, Not the Children of the Promise, not the Children of the Covenant like those ethnic jews Peter addresses here in Acts 3:25

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Now this is not to say that not any ethnic jews are the Children of God and Promise, but that they are not more so than any other Ethnicity !

Ethnic jews are no more naturally the Children of God and Promise than Ethnic Blacks, Whites, or Hispanics, or Orientals, because the Children of God/Promise are found within all Nations of People according to God's Election of Grace, but none are Children of God/ Promise by nationality or bloodline as many ethnic jews boast, and even others do as well !

 

[savedbymercy]

Rom 9:8 What does it mean for the jews ?2

That the jews, Abraham's physical seed according to the flesh, born by means of nature, blood, that they were not the Children of God, nor Heirs of God or Promise, its seen in Paul's inspired writing of Gal 4, where hagar and her son by Abraham ishmael symbolize israel national, Abraham's Seed according to the flesh and according to the mosaic Covenant at sinai, also Abraham's natural seed, for according to the analogy ishmael represents national israel and which as he was, they were not Heirs, this is seen by statement Gal 4:30

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

What can be more plainer ? National israel , Abraham's physical seed has no part in being Heirs to gether with these Patriacrchs Heb 11:8-9

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

National israel according to the flesh, they are excluded from the above Inheritance of Promise !

Again Gal 4:30 makes that clear, also see Gen 21:10

10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.

Now if anyone believes that Abraham's physical descendants israel according to the flesh, have any future promises to be fulfilled to them as Heirs, based upon Heb 11:8-9, they are deceived, and that hope shall end in shame at the Second Coming of Christ, I assure you !

 

[kyredneck]

23 And they also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. Ro 11

Jews who believe have joined with the Church of Christ and become Israelites indeed:

3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3

(...waiting to see what you're going to fuss at me about this time...)

 

[DHK]

Context:
Romans 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
--He is speaking about his own kinsman in the flesh, that is the nation of Israel whom he is praying for so earnestly.

Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
--Within the nation of Israel there were those that did not believe and those that did believe; the wicked and the righteous.
There were those like wicked Ahab and his wife Jezebel.
There were those like King David and the prophet, Elijah--righteous men.

Paul differentiates between the two in verse 7 and in verse 8 again he clarifies to whom the promise will be given--those Israelites which believed.
These are not NT believers.

 

[savedbymercy]

Abraham's Name !

Gen 17:5

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Abraham's Name as well as Sarah's are very significant as it pertains to the Covenant made known to Abraham, or as some call it, the Abrahamic Covenant ! Abraham's Name properly means " Father of the Multitudes" and Sarah, Princess even Princess of the Multitudes, even the Name Change to Abraham was because he was designated the Father of Many Nations, because in their seed Christ, the Nations/ Multitudes shall be blessed. The greek word for Nations, ethnos means a multitude, hence in the Abrahamic Covenant and the Promises made to Abraham, the Messianic blessings was never to be considered to belong to or confined to one Nation, but its Children and Heirs was to be out of All Nations !

 

[savedbymercy]

23 And they also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. Ro 11

Jews who believe have joined with the Church of Christ and become Israelites indeed:

3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3

(...waiting to see what you're going to fuss at me about this time...)

The OP, did you read it all ? Please review with me all the points I made in it with scripture !

 

[savedbymercy]

Context:
Romans 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
--He is speaking about his own kinsman in the flesh, that is the nation of Israel whom he is praying for so earnestly.

Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
--Within the nation of Israel there were those that did not believe and those that did believe; the wicked and the righteous.
There were those like wicked Ahab and his wife Jezebel.
There were those like King David and the prophet, Elijah--righteous men.

Paul differentiates between the two in verse 7 and in verse 8 again he clarifies to whom the promise will be given--those Israelites which believed.
These are not NT believers.

The OP, did you read it all ? Please review with me all the points I made in it with scripture !

 

[DHK]

The OP, did you read it all ? Please review with me all the points I made in it with scripture !

I am not going to take the time to review "all your points." I have made mine. The context of that particular passage is important.

 

[savedbymercy]

I am not going to take the time to review "all your points." I have made mine. The context of that particular passage is important.

Then you evade them, that is poor debate/discussion of my points made with scripture!

 

[savedbymercy]

They hated the True God !

The jews, the physical seed of Abraham, in all their religion, they actually hated the True God of Israel, heres proof, by what Jesus said particularly of them Jn 15:23-25

23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.

24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

 

[kyredneck]

Well, of course they hated him, they never belonged to Him, they were the manifestation of the serpent's seed of Gen 3:15. 'That generation' was foretold of centuries before in the Song of Moses:

5 They have dealt corruptly with him, they are not his children, it is their blemish; They are a perverse and crooked generation. Dt 32

Christ made no bones about telling them what they were:

41 Ye do the works of your father. They said unto him, We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I came forth and am come from God; for neither have I come of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.
45 But because I say the truth, ye believe me not.

Yet there WAS a remnant that DID belong to Him that WAS delivered.

 

[convicted1]

Well, of course they hated him, they never belonged to Him, they were the manifestation of the serpent's seed of Gen 3:15. 'That generation' was foretold of centuries before in the Song of Moses:

5 They have dealt corruptly with him, they are not his children, it is their blemish; They are a perverse and crooked generation. Dt 32

Christ made no bones about telling them what they were:

41 Ye do the works of your father. They said unto him, We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I came forth and am come from God; for neither have I come of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.
45 But because I say the truth, ye believe me not.

Yet there WAS a remnant that DID belong to Him that WAS delivered.

You REALLY need to reread his OP. And after you come into full agreement with him, then, and only then, you can have a discussion with him...

 

[PreachTony]

You REALLY need to reread his OP. And after you come into full agreement with him, then, and only then, you can have a discussion with him...

I agree with Bro. Willis. Get back to us once you've read the OP, written a detailed report going point by point through the OP, demonstrated that you understood every point in the OP, and rehearsed the points made in the OP. Then we can discuss what you've written.

Until then you're nothing but an evasive rabbit trail and you'll reap what you sow. :smilewinkgrin: :laugh:

 

[Calypsis4]

I have been reading the comments here but I don't really see the reason for the conflict of ideas. There were Jews who loved the Lord in O.T. times and there were those who did not. There are Jews in N.T. times who are saved and love Jesus Christ and there are Jews who don't. The Lord knows who are His own.

Why should we think it's more complicated than that?

 

[PreachTony]

Why should we think it's more complicated than that?

Well, Calypsis, there are some people on either side of the Predestination debate who seem to delight in doing their best to make scripture as complicated and complex as possible. They redefine words and twist scripture to fit their chosen theology. Consider it a result of our corrupted and fallible nature as human beings.