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Roman Catholic Apologists
- Thread starter Gromit
- Start date
Gromit,
quote you:
(" I thought I swore off RCC debating a couple of years ago". )
Believe me, it's a waste of time debating anyone. There is such a thing as
drug abuse, nicotine and caffeine addiction, workaholic syndrome, sexaholic,
alcoholic, golfaholic, ..........and I'm convinced I was a Religionaholic and the best
way for me to resolve that dilemma is to bow out of message boards, bible studies,
church..(anything that brings back the desire to rip apart someone else's standards).
I once thought that debate and discussion could solve questions that plague
everyone. It cannot simply because what we get as feedback is just another
person's interpretation.
We end up wasting our time. As David said in Ecclesiastes Ch 2..."everything under
the sun is vanity and vexation of spirit". I have to include debates dealing with
Religion/Christianity in this arena.
I have the peace which passes all understanding....what more could I want...!!!
See how the old vice/addiction caused me to post again?.....
Bye !!
quote you:
(" I thought I swore off RCC debating a couple of years ago". )
Believe me, it's a waste of time debating anyone. There is such a thing as
drug abuse, nicotine and caffeine addiction, workaholic syndrome, sexaholic,
alcoholic, golfaholic, ..........and I'm convinced I was a Religionaholic and the best
way for me to resolve that dilemma is to bow out of message boards, bible studies,
church..(anything that brings back the desire to rip apart someone else's standards).
I once thought that debate and discussion could solve questions that plague
everyone. It cannot simply because what we get as feedback is just another
person's interpretation.
We end up wasting our time. As David said in Ecclesiastes Ch 2..."everything under
the sun is vanity and vexation of spirit". I have to include debates dealing with
Religion/Christianity in this arena.
I have the peace which passes all understanding....what more could I want...!!!
See how the old vice/addiction caused me to post again?.....
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Singer,
Before the first car of a new model line is sent to a retail dealership, that model line of cars is assembled, tested, discected, analyzed and inspected to ensure that it meets the designers specifications which must meet State and Federal criteria. Even so, some errors slip though the crack and people get hurt.
Church dogma is the same. That is why we debate, to determine the truth of dogma, and the validity of religious 'teachings'. In doing so, the church has kept itself mostly adherant to the Holy Scriptures. Some incorrect dogma continues to slip through but it usually comes under scrutiny in short order, gets debated, and is usually found out and stopped by the church.
Let's keep the debate going.
Before the first car of a new model line is sent to a retail dealership, that model line of cars is assembled, tested, discected, analyzed and inspected to ensure that it meets the designers specifications which must meet State and Federal criteria. Even so, some errors slip though the crack and people get hurt.
Church dogma is the same. That is why we debate, to determine the truth of dogma, and the validity of religious 'teachings'. In doing so, the church has kept itself mostly adherant to the Holy Scriptures. Some incorrect dogma continues to slip through but it usually comes under scrutiny in short order, gets debated, and is usually found out and stopped by the church.
Let's keep the debate going.
Thanks Yelsew,
Yet everyone at the car factory is not an inspector, disector or analyzer.
Consider me a temporary custodian under contract and my contract has
expired. I agree that we all are scrutinizers of the word by which we form
our own dogmas which may vary from the guy in the next pew, but the big
issues of salvation always revert back to "Whosoever believes in Me shall
never die" and yet even that draws bitter debate. I believe the fault
lies in our contentious human nature coupled with a wrongful ''need to be
right''. So......most debate is driven by a despiteful nature through wrongful
intent to do edification unto oneself.
This custodian does not have the resources or the authorization to work in the
lab. I can only tell ''what I have seen and heard'' (The Great Commission) of
how the power of God has been reproved by those who are commissioned to
do so. I see the results of bad dogma as I carry out the trash and are assured
of failed tests by those who work in this lab of God. I'm assured by your efforts
that I too will get a paycheck at week's end as we are all employed and loved
by the Master Technician .....
.
I'm grateful and respectful of the input by you technicians, but I have to change
jobs as the exposure to the vices that led to my addiction are robbing me of the
ability to joyfully "Go and Tell". I have not been appointed to stir the potions in your
lab and my true job is being neglected down the hall.
Carryon with Godspeed; I've been transferred, but yet with the same employer.
Maybe I'll file an intermittent progressive report.
See ya at the Final Convention
Singer
Yet everyone at the car factory is not an inspector, disector or analyzer.
Consider me a temporary custodian under contract and my contract has
expired. I agree that we all are scrutinizers of the word by which we form
our own dogmas which may vary from the guy in the next pew, but the big
issues of salvation always revert back to "Whosoever believes in Me shall
never die" and yet even that draws bitter debate. I believe the fault
lies in our contentious human nature coupled with a wrongful ''need to be
right''. So......most debate is driven by a despiteful nature through wrongful
intent to do edification unto oneself.
This custodian does not have the resources or the authorization to work in the
lab. I can only tell ''what I have seen and heard'' (The Great Commission) of
how the power of God has been reproved by those who are commissioned to
do so. I see the results of bad dogma as I carry out the trash and are assured
of failed tests by those who work in this lab of God. I'm assured by your efforts
that I too will get a paycheck at week's end as we are all employed and loved
by the Master Technician .....
I'm grateful and respectful of the input by you technicians, but I have to change
jobs as the exposure to the vices that led to my addiction are robbing me of the
ability to joyfully "Go and Tell". I have not been appointed to stir the potions in your
lab and my true job is being neglected down the hall.
Carryon with Godspeed; I've been transferred, but yet with the same employer.
Maybe I'll file an intermittent progressive report.
See ya at the Final Convention
Singer
Ray Berrian
New Member
Gromit,
You said, 'It's like how the Mormon church got tired of being called a "cult" so
sometime around the 1970s, they began airing those commericals in the
United States, where they tried to make themselves look like a mainline
Christian denomination.
I see you are from Texas. We have seen the Mormon ads aired here in Pennsylvania too. First they offer a King James Version of the Bible in their attempt to win Protestants, for the main part. Then they later send along their Book of Mormon as additional, alleged truth from their Word from God, much like the Catholics have been deceived by adherring to Roman Catholic generational, add-on theology and tradition.
Believing that the 'host' will save their soul by possibly daily and repeated ingestions might prove at the Judgment as in sufficient proof of salvation. I wonder how the Lord feels about being included in a piece of bread as being construed as being His very self? Hopefully, for Catholics this will equal to receiving Christ as personal Savior. [John 1:12] If this does not work they will be guided to the gates of perdition.
You said, 'It's like how the Mormon church got tired of being called a "cult" so
sometime around the 1970s, they began airing those commericals in the
United States, where they tried to make themselves look like a mainline
Christian denomination.
I see you are from Texas. We have seen the Mormon ads aired here in Pennsylvania too. First they offer a King James Version of the Bible in their attempt to win Protestants, for the main part. Then they later send along their Book of Mormon as additional, alleged truth from their Word from God, much like the Catholics have been deceived by adherring to Roman Catholic generational, add-on theology and tradition.
Believing that the 'host' will save their soul by possibly daily and repeated ingestions might prove at the Judgment as in sufficient proof of salvation. I wonder how the Lord feels about being included in a piece of bread as being construed as being His very self? Hopefully, for Catholics this will equal to receiving Christ as personal Savior. [John 1:12] If this does not work they will be guided to the gates of perdition.
He seems to answer your question in John 6:31-69, Matt 26:26.
</font>[/QUOTE]Typical Roman Catholic Apologist Tricks, Brian! Pretending those passages are clear statements of the Real Presence when they are obviously in fact clear statements of the opposite!And you're not even Catholic! Who got to you? Or, to quote from the James White article mentioned in this thread, "You cannot force someone to think rationally, to obey truth, or to recognize error, if they have chosen not to do so."
I guess it's time we Catholics just 'fessed up: I, by accepting that the Church of Christ subsists on earth in the Catholic Church, have chosen not to think rationally, to obey truth, or to recognize error.
thessalonian
New Member
Yeah, how dare they take scripture literally.You did. Carson too. Also thessalonian, Bill (Putnam), CatholicConvert, Catholic Dad, Kathryn, and others. Thank you and God bless you all.
Thessalonian
thessalonian
New Member
Dude, I was posting this recent stuff mostly in response to the Catholics on this forum. Whether you want to read it or not is up to you.Originally posted by Gromit:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BrianT:
Thanks for the links Gromit, although I warned you not to drown me with information.
I really didn't want to get dragged into this. I thought I swore off RCC debating a couple of years ago. Sad to see that not many other Baptists want to debate the guys. Getting Baptists to show up at my old RCC debate board was like pulling teeth. </font>[/QUOTE]Wonder why? Could it be that old commandment about bearing false witness which is what they have to do when they run out of opinions about the Bible that just never stick.
You did. Carson too. Also thessalonian, Bill (Putnam), CatholicConvert, Catholic Dad, Kathryn, and others. Thank you and God bless you all.
neal4christ
New Member
"Jesus, knowing in Himself that His disciples were complaining about this, asked them, 'Does this offend you? Then what if you were to observe the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? The Spirit is the One who gives life. The flesh doesn't help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. But there are some among you who don't believe.'" John 6:61-64a, HCSB
In Christ,
Neal
Neal,
I've been thinking about that, and I don't think "the flesh" is talking about Christ's flesh, but other flesh. For if *Christ's* flesh doesn't help at all, why did he give his flesh on the cross? Why was his body (his flesh) broken? Why did his flesh die on the cross? By his stripes (in his flesh), we are healed, are we not? Why did he suffer in his flesh? Why did he talk so much about his body, his own flesh, if it "doesn't help at all"? Why didn't his flesh see corruption? Why does the spirit of antichrist deny he came in the flesh?
Why did he become human, taking on human flesh, in the first place? Is not the plan of salvation, at its core, dependent on Christ's flesh?
Forget about the context of the Eucharist for a moment, and just think about Christianity in general: would you accept it if someone said "Christ's body plays no role, only his Spirit is important. His flesh profiteth nothing."? I sure wouldn't, nor do I know any Baptist that would.
I think people quote verse 63 against the Eucharist, not because it makes doctrinal sense when you think about it, but because they just want something, anything, to use against the Eucharist.
Mike and thess, look for my email later tonight.
I've been thinking about that, and I don't think "the flesh" is talking about Christ's flesh, but other flesh. For if *Christ's* flesh doesn't help at all, why did he give his flesh on the cross? Why was his body (his flesh) broken? Why did his flesh die on the cross? By his stripes (in his flesh), we are healed, are we not? Why did he suffer in his flesh? Why did he talk so much about his body, his own flesh, if it "doesn't help at all"? Why didn't his flesh see corruption? Why does the spirit of antichrist deny he came in the flesh?
Why did he become human, taking on human flesh, in the first place? Is not the plan of salvation, at its core, dependent on Christ's flesh?
Forget about the context of the Eucharist for a moment, and just think about Christianity in general: would you accept it if someone said "Christ's body plays no role, only his Spirit is important. His flesh profiteth nothing."? I sure wouldn't, nor do I know any Baptist that would.
I think people quote verse 63 against the Eucharist, not because it makes doctrinal sense when you think about it, but because they just want something, anything, to use against the Eucharist.
Mike and thess, look for my email later tonight.
"Jesus, knowing in Himself that His disciples were complaining about this, asked them, 'Does this offend you? Then what if you were to observe the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? The Spirit is the One who gives life. The flesh doesn't help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. But there are some among you who don't believe.'" John 6:61-64a, HCSB
In Christ,
Neal </font>[/QUOTE]"I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
"...he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me."
Not the flesh, but my flesh. Over and over here Christ speaks of His flesh, not the flesh.
Indeed, if His flesh "doesn't help at all" then His death on the cross was a joke, a mistake, or a lie.
Pretend you never read the bible before, and ask yourself how anybody would use such perverse symbology, which is shown to have confused or offended people, to mean something simply figurative:
"...he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me."
Why did the disciples leave if they were figurative words? Why did Christ let them leave, if they just misunderstood?
trying2understand
New Member
Close, I think.
Christ was talking not about His flesh as we know it, but rather his transfigured flesh. Recall that Jesus had not yet been crucified and ascended to the Father.
That is why He answered the murmuring concerning "eating His flesh" with the question, "What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before."
When Jesus said, "It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail." He was saying that He would give us His transfigured flesh to eat.
We are given that transfigured flesh to eat in the Eucharist.
Ron
trying2understand
New Member
Another thought:
Think supernatural flesh rather than natural flesh.
Think supernatural flesh rather than natural flesh.
thessalonian
New Member
"I've been thinking about that, and I don't think "the flesh" is talking about Christ's flesh, but other flesh."
You might be on to something there.
Mark 14:38
"Keep watching and praying that you may not come into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the ____ is weak."
Romans 7:14
For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of ______, sold into bondage to sin.
Romans 8:13
for if you are living according to the _____, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
1 Corinthians 3:1
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of _____, as to infants in Christ.
This one is particularly interesting.
Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the ________?
There are many others, but I think that will do for now. Think about them in the context of 6:63. Perhaps it is not Christs flesh that was so worthless. Perhaps it was someone elses flesh that could not save itself?
Blessings
You might be on to something there.
Mark 14:38
"Keep watching and praying that you may not come into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the ____ is weak."
Romans 7:14
For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of ______, sold into bondage to sin.
Romans 8:13
for if you are living according to the _____, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
1 Corinthians 3:1
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of _____, as to infants in Christ.
This one is particularly interesting.
Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the ________?
There are many others, but I think that will do for now. Think about them in the context of 6:63. Perhaps it is not Christs flesh that was so worthless. Perhaps it was someone elses flesh that could not save itself?
Blessings
John Gilmore
New Member
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. II Peter 1:4
How can our sinful flesh be a worthy partaker of the divine nature in the sacramental union of the Body and Blood of Christ with the bread and the wine? Only when we believe His Words, "given and shed for you for the remission of sins."
1. Lord Jesus Christ, Thou living Bread,
May I for mine possess Thee.
I would with heavenly food be fed;
Descend, refresh, and bless me.
Now make me meet for Thee, O Lord;
Now, humbly by my heart implored,
Grant me Thy grace and mercy.
2. Thou me to pastures green dost guide,
To quiet waters lead me;
Thy table Thou dost well provide
And from Thy hand dost feed me.
Sin, weakness, and infirmity
Am I; O Savior, give to me
The cup of Thy salvation.
3. O Bread of heaven, my soul's Delight,
For full and free remission
With prayer I come before Thy sight,
In sorrow and contrition.
With faith adorn my soul that I
May to Thy table now draw nigh
With Thine own preparation.
4. I merit not Thy favor, Lord,
Sin now upon me lieth;
Beneath my burden, self-abhorred,
To Thee my spirit crieth.
In all my grief this comforts me,
That Thou on sinners graciously,
Lord Jesus, hast compassion.
Johann Rist, 1654
How can our sinful flesh be a worthy partaker of the divine nature in the sacramental union of the Body and Blood of Christ with the bread and the wine? Only when we believe His Words, "given and shed for you for the remission of sins."
1. Lord Jesus Christ, Thou living Bread,
May I for mine possess Thee.
I would with heavenly food be fed;
Descend, refresh, and bless me.
Now make me meet for Thee, O Lord;
Now, humbly by my heart implored,
Grant me Thy grace and mercy.
2. Thou me to pastures green dost guide,
To quiet waters lead me;
Thy table Thou dost well provide
And from Thy hand dost feed me.
Sin, weakness, and infirmity
Am I; O Savior, give to me
The cup of Thy salvation.
3. O Bread of heaven, my soul's Delight,
For full and free remission
With prayer I come before Thy sight,
In sorrow and contrition.
With faith adorn my soul that I
May to Thy table now draw nigh
With Thine own preparation.
4. I merit not Thy favor, Lord,
Sin now upon me lieth;
Beneath my burden, self-abhorred,
To Thee my spirit crieth.
In all my grief this comforts me,
That Thou on sinners graciously,
Lord Jesus, hast compassion.
Johann Rist, 1654
neal4christ
New Member
I don't know, I am not Jesus Christ. What does it mean in verse 63 when Christ says, "the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life" (RSV). What is your explanation as to the meaning of that?
And how can an all loving Messiah and God allow people to misunderstand and to continue on in a lost state?
"He said, 'To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God; but to others they are in parables, so that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand." Luke 8:10, RSV
I am not trying to connect this verse to John 6, but I think it is a fair question to ask you since you want me to tell you Christ's mind.
God Bless,
Neal
Born Again Catholic
New Member
First "spirit" never means symbolically in the Bible.
Maybe it would help to look at Paul saying the same thing in another way.
John 6
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe."
vs
1 Corinthians 2:14
14The natural person (those concerned with the flesh) does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
I hope that helps
Neal what do you think it is that Jesus is referring to in John 6:64 “some of you do not believe” The disciples who left him what is it that they are having such a hard time believing?
Most likely they are having trouble believing what Jesus had just told them, namely,
John 6
53So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
Accepting John 6 requires spiritual discernment as Jesus tells us.
God Bless